 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: popap15
Date: 2011-08-25 16:01
Attachment: Case, closed.jpg (1397k)
Attachment: Case, opened.jpg (1189k)
Attachment: Clarinet 1.jpg (1541k)
Attachment: Clarinet 2.jpg (1516k)
Attachment: Clarinet Bell.jpg (1485k)
Hey everyone, I'm new to this board, but I have to first say thank you to everyone who has offered their advice and thoughts to this board. I have learned so much thanks to your expertise.
So, in regards to my question: I am going to be a junior in high school next year and I am looking for a professional Bb Soprano clarinet to upgrade to. After exhaustive searching, I have the possibility of buying what appears to be a Buffet Crampon clarinet that says "Made in France" but with no model name printed anywhere on the clarinet. I'm assuming it could be a Buffet R13; however, it does not have an adjustable thumb rest as listed on the Buffet website. According to the seller:
* It was purchased in about 1970.
* The serial number is 107***.
Does this info sound about right? Also, there's one final thing that concerns me as to whether this is a genuine Buffet clarinet or a fake. The seller claims the case is an original and that she is the original owner. But I've never, ever seen a Buffet clarinet case like this. I've included some pics so you guys can get a good look. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!
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Author: Jwinn
Date: 2011-08-25 16:23
Brand : Buffet Crampon
Instrument : Basson Evette
Serial number : 107
Year of manufacturing : 22/06/1976
(From the Buffet website - they have a handy serial number search)
I am *no* expert on this, but I think that the Evette is sort of comparable to the E-11 or E-13. There are many people here who can tell you with certainty, alas, I am not one of them!
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Author: Jwinn
Date: 2011-08-25 16:25
Also...as for the case, I have an E-11 and it didn't come in a case like that, but it didn't come in the standard Buffet case that everyone recognizes either, so maybe in 1976 they were using that case?
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2011-08-25 17:07
FWIW a Buffet serial number in the 107,000 range corresponds to a 1969 year of manufacture so at least that part of the seller's story checks out.
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Author: Jwinn
Date: 2011-08-25 17:27
Oh geez...well, I did say I wasn't an expert! The good news is, if I were presented with an actual bassoon and a clarinet, I could tell the difference every time...Sorry folks.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2011-08-25 18:50
Fwiw, I've seen many strange descriptions in online auctions. It's especially common for somebody to post a photo of a soprano sax and describe it as a clarinet, or vice-versa. A lot of people don't have a clue what they've got when they buy something at a yard sale or inherit something, but nobody living in the family today plays a wind instrument.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2011-08-25 19:01
I have an R13 from the early 70s. The common R13 case back then was a small and very compact black case with very little storage space. On the upper left side (on the inside) was a white diagonal ribbon with the words, "Buffet Crampon The Sweetest Clarinet Ever Made" in blue letters. I never trusted the flimsy-looking case latches (although they never opened unexpectedly on me), and I eventually purchased a Buffet outer case (with zippers). My teacher had a Buffet from about 1965, and it had the same case.
I can say for a fact that these R13s did not have adjustable thumb rests. Perhaps Buffet made some very high-end clarinets that did, or perhaps some people had them added, but the average R13 did not. I finished high school and went to college in the 70s, and during those years I never saw a clarinet with an adjustable thumb rest. In 1982 I obtained a Buffet adjustable thumb rest, but was never happy with it. It was quite small and seemed almost pointless. I later had their more recent version installed, and it's a major improvement.
Evette and Evette & Schaeffer were popular student models back then. If I'm not mistaken, the Evette and Schaeffer was a bit better than the one labeled Evette. I just looked at my very old Evette, and it has the Evette name in the Buffet logo on the bell and barrel.
To the best of my knowledge, R13s did not have the model name anywhere on the instrument. I looked at your pictures, and the Buffet logos appear to be in the right places (there are three). The top word in the logo should be Buffet.
In the middle, in a fancy cursive style, it should say "Crampon & Cie." On the bottom, "Paris."
It's possible that it is a genuine R13, but it's hard to say for sure based on the pictures.
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Author: popap15
Date: 2011-08-25 19:06
@ SteveG CT
Yes, I called Buffet Crampon and they confirmed that the serial number corresponded to a manufacture year of 1969. Thanks!
@ clarinetguy
Thanks for the info! I'm sure that it isn't an Evette; there's no mention of it anywhere on the logos. I think I'll accept it as a genuine R13 for now until I take it to my music store for an evaluation.
Thanks to all who responded and God Bless!
P.S. Any other posts would be greatly appreciated.
Post Edited (2011-08-25 19:09)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-08-26 00:34
S/N 107xxx would be an R13 from 1969. See http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Equipment/HowOld/Buffet.html. A 1969 R13 would have come in the case described by clarinetguy, would have no model designation and would be stamped "Made in France." The case in your photos is a standard Buffet Evette design.
However, the clarinet shown in your photos is not an R13. While your photos are not completely clear, the trill key guide appears to be a flat plate with triangular sides, like the pre-R13 design. The R13 guide is a cylinder with a slot cut down through it.
Also, on the key for the right ring finger, the R13 has central tube with a Nike-swoosh shape for both the finger touch and the pad cup. In the photos, the finger touch piece goes straight in.
If the bell doesn't have the Buffet logo, then it's a replacement.
Sorry about that.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2011-08-26 05:02
For me, the photos are so bad I consider the jury still out. I have an R13 with the serial number 104xxx that I used for comparison to the pictures.
On the positive side are the logos, the serial number and the thumb rest. (Perhaps the bell is just turned over so that the logo doesn't show.) The pattern of the rings and the shape of the bell (and barrel) look correct to me.
I disagree with Ken regarding the trill key guide. What I make out (with difficulty) just above the G# key cup looks like a cylinder with a slot cut through it.
I agree with Ken that the lower joint sliver key does not appear to have a sufficient angle but otherwise I think it is the right shape. Also, the key's tube is the proper (short) length and, as far as I can tell, the pad cup is the proper shape. I think it's possible that the combination of the angle at which the clarinet was lying on the surface of the table and the camera angle *could* make it look straight when it actually isn't. But I have to admit, I could not reproduce the effect no matter how I twisted and turned my lower joint.
I do disagree with Ken regarding the case. I believe, when this clarinet was new, Buffet offered an attache style alternative to the pouchette, though the pouchette was far more popular at the time. I have never seen a Buffet attache case that looks like the one in the picture, however. The attache style that I am familiar with, and which was the style of choice for the Evette and Evette and Schaeffer models, is illustrated in this completed eBay auction:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Buffet-Bb-Clarinet-Circa-1978-B45-DOT-mouthpiece-/280725416066?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item415c89e882
These came in grey and reddish brown. Note the rounded edges and the absence of any corner reinforcements. Also, while it's not absolutely clear, it appears that there are no locks in the case with popap15's clarinet -- very unusual for a professional Buffet. I wouldn't read too much into this, however. In 40 years, the seller might have forgetten that the case had been replaced. One or both of the original latches may have failed, perhaps early in the clarinet's life making replacement necessary. Or possibly the original dealer swapped out cases at the original sale point: (1) at the request of the buyer, (2) without the knowledge of the buyer, (3) as a lower cost alternative to the Buffet case.
One problem I have that no one else has mentioned is that the keys appear to be silver-plated in the pictures. While not impossible, this would have been very rare on a 1969 R13. It could, however, just be the pictures and the lighting or the keys might have been silver plated during an overhaul.
Given the logos which popap15 describes and the serial number (neither of which are adequately visible in the picture, unfortunately), I think the clarinet is probably an R13 -- but the pictures are problematic.
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2011-08-27 03:27)
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2011-08-26 14:27
Ken might be on to something. I looked at the lower joint sliver key (fork B-natural and F-sharp) on my R13 (serial no. 117***). It's very sleek (with the Nike swoosh shape) and angled. Looking at my old Evette, the same key is a bit wider and goes between the 2nd and 3rd rings at almost a 90 degree angle. It's a bit hard to tell from the pictures, but the sliver key I'm seeing looks more like that of an Evette than a R13 (although it's possible that the R13 design changed).
Jack, the Evette case picture brought back old memories. That was my case, but in reddish brown.
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Author: verybigwallyfan
Date: 2011-08-26 23:35
I have an evette schaeffer and made in paris .....with serial number k474....could anyone tell me something about this horn....? Thank you...
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2011-08-27 00:46
Any Buffet Crampon clarinet that says "Made in France" (below the logo) but with no model name printed on the Upper-Joint is professional level clarinet. Separate posts for the throat A/G# makes it an R13. The case is not original. This is Leblanc style case. Banana key shape is irrelevant. Cut-outs in the wood (under the right pinky key cluster) would be another indication of the Pro level clarinet.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: popap15
Date: 2011-10-03 20:39
Hey everyone, thanks for all your help. I discovered the answer and decided to post it. After looking for a clarinet on "that auction site," I saw various Buffet E13 clarinets for sale, from around the same time period, with the exact same case. I of course assumed it was an E13, so I canceled the buy. I'm very glad I did, as I have just received a gorgeous Leblanc LL clarinet as a gift and words cannot explain how happy I am with it.
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