 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: blogan
Date: 2011-08-21 15:01
Sorry to keep bothering you guys but I really want to buy an older clarinet. Is a pre R13 buffet serial # 641R1 which puts it at 1925 worth the $450 the seller is asking? Is this going to be Albert or Boehme?
Thanks
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2011-08-21 15:59
Honestly most of the early Buffet clarinets I have encountered were really nothing special. Some can be decent players but they weren't much different from any of the other clarinets coming out of La Couture at the time. I wouldn't pay $450 for one unless I got to play test it first and it was in absolutely immaculate condition. Even then I would be hesitant.
Based on a build date of 1925 it could be Albert or Boehm. It could also be high pitch so that is something to consider as well.
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Author: weberfan
Date: 2011-08-21 16:59
I am not an expert on older clarinets, but it sounds from your posts that you want one, largely because...you want one.
i bought an old Boosey & Hawkes clarinet on the auction site for $90 with the intention of overhauling it or having it overhauled. It's decent wood, good keys and smells like the wet basement of the house I grew up in.
But if I ever get the thing fixed up, I bet it will be fun and intesting to play. It might even sound pretty good. That was all I wanted from it.
If that's all you want from the Buffet, then go for it. Hard to tell if the wood and the keys are worth $450, but even if you have to overhaul it, you still might be ahead.
If you want an instrument you can play in the symphony in Monaco, however, buy something else.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-08-21 19:01
blogan -
Look for the letters "L.P." stamped on the bell, meaning that the instrument is at 440. If it's not a Boehm, it would only be worth buying and restoring for your own pleasure. Ask the dealer how many keys it has for the right little finger -- you want 4, not 2.
Everything depends on condition. I'd never buy anything, even new, without seeing and playing it. Older instruments often have large cracks, clumsy repairs and non-Buffet joints.
Old Buffets can be wonderful. I found a Buffet Bb/A pair on eBay about 15 years ago that were almost unrecognizably dirty, and I got them for a song. They turned out to be from 1908 and had been in a closet since they were new. They restored as excellent players, with a sweeter, less resonant tone than my modern R13s.
An old Buffet will almost always need a new barrel. Kalmen Opperman told me that for my 1908 clarinets, the barrel design was different from today, and the one he made me had to have a different bore and be 69 mm. long to tune right -- significantly longer than the modern length.
Remember that the R13 was introduced only at the beginning of 1955. Many great clarinetists (e.g., Ralph McLane, Daniel Bonade) played on pre-R13 Buffets. Everything depends on how # 641R1 tunes and plays.
If the instrument hasn't been played or worked on recently, it will almost certainly need an overhaul, with cracks fixed (most often at the top of the bell), fresh pads, with the rims leveled and the grain sealed, etc. Figure on a new barrel, too. $450 is a decent price, but a full restoration, to make it useful for performance, will easily add another $300.
Good luck. Let us know how it turns out.
Ken Shaw
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Author: blogan
Date: 2011-08-21 23:52
Hey guys, thanks for the response. First off I'm a guitar player and I'm currently working on a cruise ship in the Med. So playing something before buying it is going to be impossible.
I used to play as a kid and used my dad's buffet. It was made in the thirties and had a very nice tone. I was able to hear the difference between an E11 and an R13. Someone had posted a video on youtube of a guy playing an E11 and then grabbed the R13 and played the same thing. I was able to tell that the E11 was not as focused as the R13. So when I get back into the instrument I want a head start from the instrument, as it will take some time to get good tone.
I looked at pictures of it and it looks very clean. My dad had his gone over before I used it and I saw the before and after. This one at least in the pictures looks really good. So all I can do is go by what this person says and hope for the best. Of course I wish I could play it but, oh well. I contacted the seller and they say that they restore and repair old clarinets. Buy them for cheap and sell them at a reasonable price. Is this just a line? Why wouldn't an old clarinet like this be worth as much as a new R13? But it does look nice though.
After looking again it looks like a Boehme. The keys are exactly as I remember. Can you tell me about the L.P. thing. It means low pitch, but if it is not stamped on the bell can it still be low pitched? And what kind of difference does that make. Low pitch versus high pitch?
Thanks again for the advice. I need this to break up the monotony out here. And truly don't intend to do anything but my own recording with it. No symphonies.
Anything else you can think of? Or maybe someone just tell me, "Yeah that's a great clarinet. It's going to sound so warm and beautiful." That's what I need to hear right now. I saw a B12 in Istanbul the other day. The guy wanted $500 for it. Don't you think that this pre R13 for $450 will sound better than some kind of composite for $500? Please say yes!
So again, why wouldn't an old vintage clarinet command as much money as a newer one?
Thanks,
Bob
Post Edited (2011-08-22 00:04)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-08-21 23:57
If you could find out the length to the nearest millimetre of the both body joints when assembled (minus bell and barrel), then that will give the best indication of the pitch.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2011-08-22 02:34
From a subjective, "playability" standpoint, the most playable clarinet I have ever owned is one with serial number that I have always read as 1T405, which dates it to 1926.
I told a friend who is an amazing player about this instrument. He wanted to try it. With his Muncy barrel and a good mouthpiece, he thought it was wonderful. But he thinks it is older than 1926 -- and it may be. The "1" before the "T" in the serial number (only on one joint) may in fact be a check in the wood. Impossible to tell, really.
It is cosmetically ugly, but just a really, really good instrument.
Susan
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2011-08-22 05:50
blogan wrote:
> Anything else you can think of? Or maybe someone just tell me,
> "Yeah that's a great clarinet. It's going to sound so warm and
> beautiful." That's what I need to hear right now. I saw a B12
> in Istanbul the other day. The guy wanted $500 for it. Don't
> you think that this pre R13 for $450 will sound better than
> some kind of composite for $500? Please say yes!
>
> So again, why wouldn't an old vintage clarinet command as much
> money as a newer one?
>
Honestly I think you can get a better clarinet for $450 without even trying very hard. At that price you can find newer professional clarinets such as a Selmer CT, Selmer series 9 or series 10, Leblanc Dynamic, Leblanc L-series, Marigaux, or a multitude of others. Any of these would be safer bets if you are going to be buying an instrument without play testing it first.
Judging from the pictures I have seen of the exact clarinet you are referencing I would personally steer clear of it. The tenon corks are ratty looking and you can see that some key corks are missing as well. That is not something you want to see on an instrument that was supposedly recently overhauled.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-08-22 13:32
Worth the same as any other French clarinet of that era, perhaps $50 unrestored and maybe $200-300 following a complete restoration.
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