 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ClarinetistDad
Date: 2011-08-14 12:36
Yesterday, I went with my daughter to pick out an R13 clarinet for her at a major music center. I understand that each clarinet has its own personality and when spending $3,000 on a clarinet, it just makes sense to try many to find the one that is right for the player.
The center we went to was great on customer service. They brought out many R13 and Festival models for her to try. After going through about 7 R13 and 3 Festival models, she found the Festival she liked.
However, I have two issues that I wanted to mention and get some other opinions.
First, when she finally selected one Festival, it leaked air - but she like its sound overall. The person helping us said not to worry, have her play it for awhile and then bring it back for adjustment. This was very odd to me...why would I pay $3,000 for a clarinet that was seemingly "broken". The repair shop was closed that day, so I believed the real reason behind it not being adjusted immediately was that the repair shop was closed rather than it made sense to play it for a while and then return for adjustment as the salesperson tried to say. This immediately raised my "crap" detector and I no longer trusted the salesperson. I asked for another Festival for her to try, which she found great and we purchased that one.
Next, I noticed that all of the boxes that the person brought out to us were open. Apparently they had also been subjected to testing by other clarinetists - and were their "rejects". I toyed in my head that I should request unopened boxes for her to chose from as well. But I didn't. Now I think I 'm sorry for not doing that. However, the clarinet is being shipped on Monday to our home, so it's not too late for me to call the store and ask to come back and try some unopened ones.
OK, aside from the obvious answer that if my daughter found one she liked, what does it matter that the box was unsealed, tested and rejected by another, is it common that when testing clarinets that all have been previously tested ? Should I have asked for sealed boxes or should I go back and ask for sealed boxes? I imagine that it is unethical, if not illegal, to sell a returned clarinet as new so I'm not really too concerned about that since overall I believe the center from which I purchased the horn is highly ethical and very customer service oriented. The only issue about this is that there should be somewhat of an additional discount if the instrument can be considered an "open-box" item. I'm not certain of the definition of open box.
Any opinions on the above? And I know I'm dealing with clarinetists, so I'm gonna get a lot of different thoughts
Thanks so much.
Post Edited (2011-08-14 13:30)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-08-14 12:58
Any reasonable store or seller would check new instruments when they arrive from the factory. Usually when you try clarinets they don't really have a "box", just their case. I'm not sure what exactly was "open" but I wouldn't worry about it. If the clarinet was somehow closed/sealed (I guess in nylon or something like that) then I'd be more concerned with buying from a place which doesn't check their clarinets, which often can have issues from the factory. If the only way to sell a clarinet new was with some type of seal from the factory then pretty much no clarinet could be sold as new.
By the way, I don't know about the person who sold you the clarinet, but IME "try it for a while" is a pretty common trick salesmen use instead of actually checking and dealing with an issue.
Unless the purpose was to save the sales tax, I'm not sure why you had the clarinet shipped instead of taking it with you after buying it, to make sure nothing happens to it (at least I hope you wrote down the serial number to make sure the clarinet you receive is the one she chose).
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2011-08-14 13:01
Hi Clarinetistdad,
You're actually not going to find too many differing opinions on this one: the clarinets your daughter tried were not "rejects". There were instruments that had been play tested before most likely. It could also be the case that the instruments were opened so that a repair tech could make sure they were in proper playing order -- but since the one you selected has a leak this is probably not the case.
No two clarinets are alike, and what's fantastic for me might only be ok for your daughter and vice versa. So again -- the instruments were "rejects".
As for the leak -- it is a known quantity now-a-days that Buffet makes great clarinets (some are better than others)...but that they do not appear in perfect working order "out of the box". So it is common that a Buffet that you buy will need a little bit of attention before being in tip-top shape, and this doesn't include little things your daughter may need done in the area of adjustments made solely for her.
The "play the instrument and bring it back" statement doesn't really hold water -- unless the guy wants the sale and the repair shop is closed as you said. I would suggest, however, that once the leak is repaired (based on location and severity) that the instrument will play differently once it IS fixed -- something to consider when selecting an instrument.
Great job on taking your daughter to try out as many horns as possible -- I hope the instrument turns out to be everything she would like it to be.
Hi Clarnibass -- in the states here Buffet soprano clarinets often come in their cases inside a cardboard box with Buffet's logo on it.
James
James
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2011-08-14 13:02)
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Author: srattle
Date: 2011-08-14 13:02
About the open-box issue, think about it this way. Your daughter tried 10 clarinets that day to find one that she liked. Should the shop then say that those 10 clarinets should not be tried by other people? Should they be forced to sell them for a discount?
If that were the case, the stores would start saying that you can only try one instrument before you buy, and that would be horrible for clarinetists.
I think normally the open boxes aren't necessarily 'rejects' but more clarinets that people have tested. Reject is a bit of a strong word anyway, because most likely any instrument you try, there will be another one somewhere in the world that is better for you. It's pretty standard practice to test instruments that aren't sealed.
As for the air leak, that is a more interesting problem, because a clarinet with an air leak will sound different from the same instrument without the leak. If your daughter isn't too experienced, and can't adjust her ears for the leak, then it's a really bad idea to buy an instrument with a leak. It's the same as trying to buy an instrument after playing on it with a bad reed, there's just no way to tell what it would really sound like. . .
However, if she REALLY loved that clarinet with the leak (more than the one you bought), then maybe it's a good idea to go back an say that you want to try that instrument again after the leak is repaired. $3000 is a lot to drop on something you're not really sure about.
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Author: ClarinetistDad
Date: 2011-08-14 13:14
Thanks for the quick responses.
James, you are correct, the Buffet cases come in boxes here in the states. And, looking at your name, I believe my daughter was one of your students at your Master classes at JMU's band camp a few weeks back. It was a great experience for her working with your and Dr. Bolstad. She speaks very highly of both of you...we might be contacting you soon for occasional lessons. She also can't wait to return to the JMU Band Camp next summer!
With regard to the Festival, the final one she tried, after the one that leaked, was perfect for her. She had a grip on that one (gentle of course) that was the same grip she used to have on her favorite Teddy Bears...no doubt it was the one!
Thanks again all...I feel more comfortable after reading your responses.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2011-08-14 14:03
Hi ClarinetDad,
I had a great time teaching at JMU this past summer -- I'm glad that your daughter enjoyed the experience! Please feel free to email me (if you click on my name "Tobin" you'll find my email address) if I can be of any help to you.
If you/your daughter/her private teacher are not familiar with "breaking in" a wooden clarinet, I would suggest that you read about it here:
http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Equipment/Care/Break-in.html
Not everyone agrees on the specifics here, but I think it prudent to protect a new clarinet in a young person's hands. If she's already played the dickens out of it she shouldn't feel as if she's done something wrong -- just swab it out a lot, get the moisture out of the tenons, and drop down to this schedule.
Others here don't believe necessarily in "breaking in" a clarinet -- but many of us who post to the board are well past our first professional clarinet. Why take chances?
Good luck!
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-08-14 15:41
Both of your concerns are the sign of a good shop.
Unless you luck out with a visit that coincides with a new shipment, you'll be trying out instruments others have tried. The fact that they have been tried shows that others trust that shop as well, and that the shop encourages playtesting of their entire stock of instruments, not just a random few. Also, such shops sometimes have an arrangement with the manufacturer where they select superior horns from the factory. If this is the case (which it may or may not be), even the poorest horn at this shop may be superior to the random one in stock at a local Sam Ash.
The adjustment offer shows that the shop acknowledges that the instruments are not spectacularly set up from the factory. They *could* finely adjust the instruments before playtesting, but this is labor-intensive and may require repeated tweaking before any sales... it would likely increase the price of the horn. Instead, if you have it adjusted a month or two after you buy, you have the same end result (a well-adjusted horn) and the shop has less headache.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-08-14 16:18
First, I think it's funny that your way of thinking pretty much would coincide with mine. But as far as clarinets go at least, it's not to be worried about that much.
I'm glad you realize and understood that clarinets should be tried out cause each one has a slightly different personality. As for the leaking air, I do think that if the repair shop was open they could have fixed it right there, but there's nothing wrong with letting the clarinet break in a little, working the keys and pads, and having it adjusted after it's been played on.
As for thinking that you're receiving and only getting to try out the "rejects", you're absolutely right in a way, BUT that is not a bad thing! Keep in mind that while all clarinets are little different, clarinet players are a little different in what they look for and want in a clarinet as well. Some clarinetists naturally want a clarinet with more resistance cause they feel it would help this or that. Some want a loud clarinet, some what a quiet clarinet, some want a clarinet that the rings sit higher than the chimneys under their fingers, some want it flush, some have heavy hands and won't notice keys that are hard to press down, some play very lightly and want the keys to move with less effort, etc. etc.
The reason those clarinets weren't chose were, more than likely, because the initial feel of playing it just wasn't comfortable to another person's preferences.
Quick example: A friend of mine is an excellent clarinetist. And we switched mouthpieces one day. I liked how he sounded and he liked how I sounded. And we HATED each other's mouthpieces. Same with clarinets. Turns out he preferred a very resistant setup and I prefer a very free-blowing setup. So it was a personal preference.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: William
Date: 2011-08-14 16:49
Think about it....the same case--"new" or used--could be made for cars taken for a test drive and then returned to the floor of the showroom or clothing tried on in a stores dressing room and then reshelved. In the world of musical instruments, often new does not mean, "wonderful". It is not uncommon for a used clarinet (that may look as if it has been through a hundred marching band camps) to play much better than one freshly "out of the box" or brand new in the store--even after it has been set-up properly by the stores repair technician. IMHO, "used" is not a valid disqualification for selecting a clarinet--nor is "new" a given for predicting quality of performance. To quote Duke Ellington, "If it sounds good, it is good." Think about it.............
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Author: ClarinetistDad
Date: 2011-08-14 18:02
I wanted to thank all of you for the comments. It has not only changed my way of thinking regarding the purchase of the clarinet, it has opened my eyes up to thought in general. I never considered many of the situations that have been posted - they all make so much sense!
Thanks so much for expanding this salty old dog's mind. And I'll never say the old band joke again that goes: What's the difference between a clarinet and an onion? Nobody cries when you cut up a clarinet.
You guys are great!
Post Edited (2011-08-14 18:05)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2011-08-14 19:11
Also, in the process of breaking in a new Clarinet, pads can shift. So the store maybe wanted you to play it a bit, and then bring back so that their tech could properly fix it, and not have you returning over, and over to get it to seal.
You were lucky to have a store that had that many quality instruments to choose from. Many stores these days only have a couple of highest quality, and a bunch of low ones.
Also, consider having the Clarinet "set up" by a high end repairman. I'm speaking about the repairmen who the Symphony players use, as that can make a huge difference in how the instrument plays. Often pads tone holes need work as they aren't perfect (so leak, or wear pads much more quickly), or spring tension, key heights, etc can be modified to the players preference.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-08-15 06:23
>> Hi Clarnibass -- in the states here Buffet soprano clarinets often come in their cases inside a cardboard box with Buffet's logo on it. <<
When I bought mine in the USA, none of the clarinets had a cardboard box, just the case. Maybe the stores just threw the boxes away. Anyway I don't think having the boxes or not is a sign of anything.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2011-08-17 02:08
Clarinets are often out of adjustments even when they are new. Sadly it's kind of normal. The suggestion to play on it for a bit may or may not be a good idea, because if the pads leak slightly, the keys are out of adjustment, and then they fix the horn, your horn may sound very different and this could be bad or good. Horns change "Color," meaning the sound can be different during the break in period. The horns in general may slightly change color during the 4 seasons, because the bore of the horns will dry a bit below 32 degree weather. A way to see if the horn is drying out is the joint rings and the bell ring start moving a bit. Lots of musicians use something called a damp-it or you can make your own. String players also have to do this practice. I made mine by taking a few of those medicine bottles and drill a bunch of holes in them and placing a moist sponge in these bottles. I kind of like using distilled water, because of mold. Regular water can sometimes attract mold in the cases, not the horns.
Anyway, get the horn adjusted soon in order that the sound doesn't change.
clarnibass - my horns in the US have always been boxed. I guess it depends on the store you buy it from and if a repairman tested it out. I don't think a box really matters.
The day I buy the "A" horn a few months ago I played it for 10 minutes 2 or 3 times a day and within 2 or 3 weeks I think the horn was fairly broken in depending on how much you play it during the break-in period. Then I changed the upper joint to cork pads and made sure the lower joint didn't leak. This is actually worth paying 2 or 3 hundred bucks for a top repairman to do his magic. My next move may need some tuning; such as under cutting some of the holes. I recently took a spill at the Baltimore airport and smashed up my face. When I get back to playing I will probably go back and do the break-in thing with the A clarinet again. After a few months I'll adjust the tuning.
By the way, don't rush in adjusting the pitch for a few months and make sure you bring a good electronic tuner. A good one should only cost about $40
Hope this helps.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2011-08-17 02:42)
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Author: salzo
Date: 2011-08-17 10:59
"This was very odd to me...why would I pay $3,000 for a clarinet that was seemingly "broken"."
It is odd to you, because you are not a clarinetist.
Just about everything you buy as a clarinetist is broken, and has to be fixed.
Clarinets, reeds, ligatures, reed holders, mouthpieces, barrels, cases.
When it comes to clarinet stuff, I just assume it is broke and needs to be fixed.
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