 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2011-08-12 22:46
One of my students, playing the Weber 1st Concerto in a competition recently, was criticized by the judge for " not playing in tempo" at the triplet passage marked "lusingando". When I was coached in this work by Rosario Mazzeo many years ago he made a point of explaining the meaning of the word in Italian -- literally "lighting the way." Translating this to early-nineteenth-century context, he felt it meant playing the section somewhat haltingly, as if finding one's way on a dark cobblestone street by the light of a lantern. (Later in the same movement when the triplet passage is reprised it's marked grazioso by the composer.)
I hope this post finds its way to judges who might, in the future, be rating my students so that they will realize that the "out of tempo" playing was by design--not the product of bad musicianship!
Larry Bocaner
National Symphony Orchestra--Washington (retired)
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2011-08-13 03:47
Larry, FWIW, I think lusingando actually means "flattering" or "in a flattering way" (from lusingare - to flatter).
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2011-08-13 13:49)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-08-13 11:29
What kind of judge was it - a robot?
I would have thought they'd be pleased to hear someone holding back on triplets as most players have the tendency to rush through them.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2011-08-13 14:02
Larry, thanks for sharing this story. I wonder if Weber put this word in his score, or if it was added later by someone else, perhaps Carl Baermann. I'm not familiar with the term, but we all know that the meanings of words can change over time. I would tend to think that if anyone could really explain the older meaning of lusingando, it would be Mazzeo.
This reminds me of an experience I had with a younger student at a solo and ensemble festival. He performed a transcription of a Schumann piece, one that I wasn't familiar with. I spent a lot of time studying the music and listening to several recordings, and I had him play it at what seemed to be a well-accepted tempo. The judge didn't know the piece, and marked the student down for playing it "too slowly." Ouch! The next time I have a student play something that isn't well-known to everyone, I'm going to include a note for the adjudicator.
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2011-08-13 14:23
Kind thanks for thoughtful replies. "Lusingando" appears in both the Urtext and Baermann versions of the Concerto.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2011-08-13 14:25
OK, I pulled out my music dictionary (A to Z of foreign musical terms) on the off-chance the term might be there. I was surprised to find that it is. That dictionary defines in as "caressing, alluring."
Also in the Virginia Tech Multimedia Music Dictionary: "A directive to perform a certain passage of a composition in a coaxing, caressing, flattering, or alluring style."
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2011-08-13 17:01
Could it be that "coaxing, caressing, flattering, or alluring" might be idiomatic interpretations of "lighting the way/" Many such examples in the English language where the original meaning of a word or phrase has added new vernacular meanings over time -- e.g. "gay"!
In any case "coaxing, caressing, flattering, or alluring" might imply something other than playing in strict tempo.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2011-08-13 21:20
I would like to think that if the student performed what they intended confidently and with polish that many (most?) judges would be able to discern deliberate intent -- not unpolished accident.
Still -- one of my kids got her all state audition remarks back last year: one judge gave her a lot of +'s for her sound...the other one gave her a lot of -'s for her sound....nice way to display that the two judges don't have any common ground to be judging....and no inclination to communicate with each other.
Hope you're doing well Larry!
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2011-08-14 00:35
My senior year of high school, I played the first 2 mvts of the Mozart Concerto. I never understood why the adjudicator took off a point for "Tuning (Accompanied)" since I wasn't accompanied! Especially since I didn't lose points for intonation. Unless that's what he meant and just marked the wrong box (the guy wore 2 hearing aids and I swore he was at least half deaf and possibly half blind as well). In the grand scheme, it wouldn't have mattered much (I still made All-County Band that year and that point would've moved me up a chair (still on Clarinet I) and the letter score would've stayed the same).
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Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2011-08-14 03:39
One thing that I've learnt, when I've had to judge competitions, is that it's unwise to try to tell anyone anything about WHY you didn't think they were as good as someone else.
You might think that it would be helpful to isolate what you saw as a particular deficiency. But in fact, anything you say can be, and very often is, used against you, rather than taken on board.
"The only reason he/she could come up with was [fill in the blank]!"
My advice is: avoid judging competitions like the plague. It's a mug's game.
Tony
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-08-14 16:41
So often those judges are not professional players but school teachers. Even when they are professional players though so much depends on "their" interruption of a piece, it could be generally accepted or not. I remember once in my college orchestra doing Beethoven's 3nd symphony the conductor stopped and asked the horn player who ever taught them the play the solo in the trio section that way. He replied James Chambers his teacher, principal in the NY Phil at the time. The orchestra came unglued with laughter. Always be careful when critiquing some ones interruption. ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2011-08-14 17:31
Ed Palanker wrote:
>> So often those judges are not professional players but school teachers. Even when they are professional players though so much depends on "their" interruption of a piece, it could be generally accepted or not. I remember once in my college orchestra doing Beethoven's 3nd symphony the conductor stopped and asked the horn player who ever taught them the play the solo in the trio section that way. He replied James Chambers his teacher, principal in the NY Phil at the time. The orchestra came unglued with laughter. Always be careful when critiquing some ones interruption.>>
I don't think I need to comment.
Tony
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2011-08-17 05:08
"Could it be that 'coaxing, caressing, flattering, or alluring' might be idiomatic interpretations of 'lighting the way'?"
I tend to shy away from discussions of musical interpretation because I don't have the training or experience of many of the others who follow this Board. I was hoping someone else would weigh in on this question because I'm curious to know the answer as well but no one has so I'll toss in my 2 cents (which may prove to be more like 2 lire).
I think what you describe is possible, though I'd be inclined to substitute "approximate imperfect translations of lusingando" for "idiomatic interpretations of 'lighting the way'." The definitions I provided are obviously all translations -- the first from a Berlitz Italian/English dictionary; the others from dictionaries of musical terms. But some words in one language don't have exact (one-word) referents in a particular second language and using approximate translations sometimes results in humorous and even embarrassing situations. Italian isn't my first language and most of what I've learned has involved using English translations. It may be worth noting (or not), however, that Rosario Mazzeo was born in Pawtucket, Rhode Island, so, unless his parents emigrated from Italy and he grew up speaking Italian in his home, Italian may not have been his first language either. (Larry, as his former student, perhaps you know.) In any case, since I don't have access, either to a native Italian speaker or a (strictly) Italian dictionary or thesaurus, I can't answer your question definitively. AFAIK, his interpretation may have been accurate or it may not have been. It would be nice if he were still alive so we could ask him. Failing that, it would be nice to hear from a native Italian speaker.
I do think, before you teach other students to play the phrase "haltingly" you might be wise to do some more research into the actual meaning of the term. I know many consider Rosario Mazzeo at least a demigod of the clarinet but he was human and he may simply have been wrong in this case. And, even if he was absolutely right, most musicians looking for the meaning of "lusigando" are likely to go to a musical dictionary for the term and, when they do, they will see "caressing" or "alluring" or possibly "flattering" (and here I would interpret flattering to mean "pleasing" rather than "full of praise and compliments," BTW) or "coaxing" or even "seductive" (as I found in an older dictionary I forgot I had). Whatever those terms conjure up for their readers, I suspect it will not universally be "halting."
FWIW, I listened to a couple of recordings to see how two specific clarinetists would play the phrase -- Alessandro Carbonare, because Italian is his first language, and Tony Pay because I know he pays a great deal of attention to detail. (I did this before Tony posted to the thread, BTW.) I would not characterize Carbonare's approach as "halting." I thought he played the passage very smoothly, even gently with perhaps at most one very slight tenuto. Since Tony is participating in this thread, I will leave it to him to describe his approach if he wishes (and I hope he and some of the other professionals who have participated, or at least read the thread do weigh in with their understanding of the term).
James T., I understand your point but, if a student performed what s/he intended confidently and with polish, I would still expect a judge to be critical if the judge thought the interpretation was incorrect (which may be what happened here) -- e.g., to take an extreme example, if some student performed the second movement of the Mozart concerto at quarter = 220.
Now, please, someone who really does know what Weber meant when he used "lusingando" in his first concerto, enlighten us (illuminare non incendiare).
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2011-08-17 17:45
My Italian friends tell me that the idea of "lighting the way" is mistaken.
'Lusingare' is to convince someone of something with words or actions (or music:-), and can also have the sense of promising something: "Lui ha attirato con lusinghe di cariche politiche" (He has been drawn by the allurements of political office). So 'una lusinga' means, ' a lure'. Perhaps there's also the slight connotation of exaggeration: "Ha ceduto alle lusinghe di felicità eterna, ma la realtà si è rivelata diversa" (He succumbed to the lure of eternal happiness, but the reality turned out to be different).
So 'lusingando' can mean something like 'charmingly', because there's the suggestion of intimacy. You wouldn't apply it to a rallying speech made to a lot of people.
I've always felt that the first movement of the Weber tells the story of something like a nation or community threatened by some menace, and fearful of the outcome. (F minor). A leader arises, and brings hope (Ab major). They rally the troops, and then quietly promise the children in this gentle triplet passage that although times ahead will be difficult, everything will turn out alright in the end.
So for me, it would mean something like 'reassuringly'. And therefore, also simple and direct.
(Of course, it DOESN'T turn out, unfortunately.)
I think that looking at music in this way -- namely, trying to think what it is DOING, in some other world -- is the best way to have it be alive and convincing. And how people usually fail, in competitions as in performance, is that they are not alive and/or convincing. How can you characterise that, when they want to know 'what was wrong'?
Now, in this case, the 'other world' is pretty clearly operatic and dramatic. (Weber invented German romantic opera, after all.)
But it need not be: what the long trill in Messiaen's 'Abime des oiseaux' DOES is to change from having the top note predominate to having the bottom note predominate as it slows down and turns into the rhythm Messiaen writes out explicitly. Realising this brings it to life in performance.
Yesterday I happened to read a description of an actor's work (according to him) that applies nicely to us too:
"We do things in reverse in the theater. We get the script, which is...at the end of the thought process: we have the lines there. Normally in life, you have an impulse and then a thought which you put into words. Well, I have the words, I get the words first in this finished script. And so I have to go back and find out what the thought was, to have you say those words. And more importantly, what was the impulse that created the thought that created the words, and usually it could be an emotional kind of thing. What was the reason for that thought? That's the way I have always thought of it."
Me too.
Tony
Post Edited (2011-08-17 21:05)
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2011-08-17 21:55
Wow, this thread turned out to be far more illuminating than I ever imagined! I am grateful for the reasoned input of all who responded -- and especially for Tony Pay's command of Italian linguistics. After having accepted and inculcated Mr. Mazzeo's read on this expression mark all these years (I was never his "student" in the strict sense of the word; just had the honor of being coached by him two summers at Tanglewood) I guess I must now move on and accept an amended aesthetic for the passage in question. I suspect I will still encourage my students to play the lusingando somewhat freely -- cajolingly -- but be a little less didactic about the appropriate amount of rubato.
My own scenario for the section discussed has been that the unsteady tempo of the lusingando represented the tentative movement of a medieval urban pedestrian walking by lantern light; the fleeting 16ths that follow (in the Baermann "Cadenza") are the scurrying of rodents disturbed by the human activity. Works for me!
Thanks again to all who responded -- we are all enriched by this discussion!
Larry
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2011-08-18 08:58
A question occurred to me - really two sides of the same one -as this discussion has unfolded.
Italy, in my understanding of its history, was not a unified nation until the late 19th century. Its many separate components were independent and many had been overrun over the centuries by other European powers. As I understand it, there were a number of regional dialects of Italian spoken that, while based in a common Latin ancestor were fairly distinct from each other.
The discussion here has been about the real meaning - from the point of view of a modern native Italian speaker, whether Mazzeo or some one else - of an Italian word in the score of a composer whose native tongue was certainly some dialect of German. My question is whether or not modern Italian usage of a term like lusingando is necessarily the same as it was for Weber when he composed this concerto. Might there have been subtle (or not so subtle) differences in meaning among dialects? And to what extent was Weber steeped in the meanings of Italian words that didn't carry really standard, universal musical meanings? Did he speak Italian with native fluency or like a non-Italian with a professional interest in the texts he set to music (or not at all)?
This all may be the rambling of an insomniac who this minute can't sleep and has nothing better to do. I've not had a chance to do any looking, although I may later. But if Weber used the term anywhere else, it may be that other musical contexts in which he used it might shed more light on what he meant. Is anyone aware "off the top of your head" of anywhere else where he (or even his contemporaries) used this term? It might be really instructive if it shows up in an operatic context where the text might hint at what is going on affectively.
Now back for another attempt to get some sleep.
Karl
Post Edited (2011-08-18 11:43)
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Author: David Niethamer
Date: 2011-08-19 02:27
Karl makes a good, and very interesting point! Any early 19th century Italian language scholars here?
David
niethamer@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/dbnclar1/index.html
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2011-08-19 04:46
Here is an entry from the second volume of:
A Dictionary of Music and Musicians (A.D. 1450 -- 1880) By Eminent Writers, English and Foreign with Illustrations and Woodcuts, Edited by George Grove, D.C.L.
i.e., the first Grove's Dictionary -- this volume published in 1880.
Lusingando, or Lusinghiero, literally 'flattering' or 'coaxing,' whence its musical meaning comes to be 'in a soft and tender manner,' resembling Amoroso in character, except that the latter is generally used at the beginning of movements, and the former as applying only to a short passage. Beethoven uses it in the Quartet, op. 131, in the slow movement (no. 4), where the entry of the second subject is marked 'Andante moderato e lusingiero.' Lusingando is a very favourite direction of Weber's, occurring in the Piano Sonata, op. 4, first movement, 'tranquillo e lusingando,' in L'invitation à la Valse, where the coquettish second subject reappears pianissimo in C major, and in several other places. Chopin uses it in the Rondo in F (in 3•4 time). [J.A.F.M.]
The initials J.A.F.M. refer to John Alexander Fuller-Maitland, Esq. You can find a fairly extensive (and rather interesting) biography in Wikipedia. The entry lists a number of references. (Like many, I suspect, I turn my nose up a Wikipedia as a serious reference.... even while I am using it.)
The Grove's Dictionary is later than Weber's use of the term but I expect it probably reflects his understanding of it. The political unification of Italy was complete by about 1860 but that is probably not relevant to this discussion. Remember that the Renaissance established Italian as a language of culture, not only in Italy but throughout Europe. Italian music terminology would have been old-hat by the time of Weber and doesn't appear to have changed much since. Recall the criticism Mozart received for breaking with tradition and using German rather than Italian as the language for German operas. If interested, you can look at the table of contents for the score of Handel's opera, Alessandro, on IMSLP. There, you will find an aria in the third act with the word "lusingar" in its title and lyrics.
Also, if you are really interested in the development of the Italian language, you might start here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuscan_language
(Wikipedia, again! What can I say?)
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-08-19 15:55
I had thought of the lusingando in the Grand Duo Concertant as "singingly."
Another Italian Language challenge is in the third movement of the Beethoven Op. 11 trio for piano/cello/clarinet. "Before we begin, we must have something to eat" ????
Bob Phillips
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2011-08-19 17:27
"I had thought of the lusingando in the Grand Duo Concertant as 'singingly.'"
In the sense of Bel Canto? or Can Belto?
Re the Beethoven Trio, Pria ch'io l'impegno is the title of the piece that provides the theme for the theme and variations, not instructions for the performers.... but you already know that.
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2011-08-19 23:37)
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