 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: The Break
Date: 2011-08-06 03:32
So, in December of last year, i bought the Buffet R13 Vintage from WWBW. And, yes, i actually went to their facilities and tested them out. At the time, i was unaware that on Buffet Crampons website they had - in the instruments specifications- a STANDARD Eb lever. And also, on WWBW's site, they had this same specification. I am wondering why something "standard" wouldn't be on my clarinet, and if there is any significance or manufacturers ... malfunction?
Yes, the clarinets i've played before didn't have the Alt Eb lever.. and i lived with it. Like most clarinetists do, but i thought it would make life much easier to be able to play that Eb/Ab on both sides.
I was just wondering if the board had any ideas as of why the clarinet may be like that, and what to do.
Thank You.
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2011-08-06 05:21
I definitely see what you're talking about at the Buffet Site.
http://www.buffet-crampon.com/en/instruments.php?mode=productsList&cid=10
Is it possible you own an R13, not Buffet's "Vintage," as Buffet describes it---or as you call it, an "R13 Vintage?"
(Does both a "Vintage" and an "R13 Vintage" model exist?)
I don't know pricing, but did you pay the "R13 Vintage" price--assuming it to be higher than what an ordinary R13 was going for?
If so, you may wish to take this up with WWBW.
Perhaps otherson the board know more. In the meantime--some interesting posts lie on the bboard, if you're interested and not already aware of them, on retrofitting such a key. Search for "Eb lever" or "Eb key."
..I could have really benefitted from this in the Cadenza to Messager's Solo de Concurs....and Spohr's 1st...
Good luck. Keep us posted. If Buffet can retrofit this key, I'd be interested in knowing!
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Author: The Break
Date: 2011-08-06 14:07
I'm quite certain it's a vintage. It has the Vintage "logo" on the top joint, with Vintage in cursive letters. And it's case that it came with is indicative of the Vintage.
On buffet's website they do just say Vintage, but i believe the clarinet is in the r13 "line" of clarinets. And on WWBW's website they do call it the R13 Vintage.
Yes, the Vintage's price is slightly higher than the R13's price, and i paid for a Vintage.
Having the key retrofitted would probably be ideal, because i spent a lot of time testing the clarinets; and since then playing it.
Thank You for your advice! I will keep the forum updated as to what WWBW has to say.
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2011-08-06 17:45
It could be an error on the website. I haven't encountered the Eb key on the R-13 Vintage before. Even if there is an Eb level on some, I highly doubt that any dealer would allow you to switch out your horn at this point.
Enjoy what you have!
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2011-08-06 18:04
While I concur with Mr. Garcia's scenario being likely--if in fact you were shortchanged...I wonder...
If you bought a car with some fancy snow/ice feature in April, and didn't realize the feature wasn't hooked up until you tried to invoke/test the feature for the first time in "that 1st snow even of the season in winter," would that make the dealer less culpable for rectifying the matter?
I would hope not.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2011-08-06 18:35
Call Buffet-Crampon in Florida on Monday for their definitive answer.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: hanselkoh
Date: 2011-08-06 18:53
I think I have seen a Vintage without the aux Eb key, and a feeling that you might just gotten an new old stock. Do check the serial number on the buffet site..
http://www.buffet-crampon.com/en/instruments.php
Maybe you can try get back to WWBW and see if they could do anything about it? maybe rebate you or something, after its a old stock anyway
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Author: The Break
Date: 2011-08-07 01:04
I love my clarinet, and i'm not ungrateful for it. It truly is amazing, and i recommend it to all of you - with or without the aux Eb/Ab key.
As for the "car scenario" i definitely understand. But, on Buffet's website - AND on WWBW's website, they both list the specifications for the instrument. Which includes a standard Eb lever. Fact of the matter is that no matter when i presented this issue -- either when i was testing the instrument or now.. unfortunately later -- the instrument is still missing an Eb lever. And of course that isn't exactly WWBW's fault, because they don't manufacture the instrument. And either it be me or someone else who received the instrument, the aux Eb is missing. :/
WWBW told me to call USA buffet crampon, and i did. But, whoever this man is - forgot his name- he sure is a busy man. I only tried to call him twice today, not wanting to seem.. inappropriate. But i left a message on the matter. I have been told Buffet has wonderful customer service, and i am in no worry. I would never get ill-tempered on the issue, i'm just curious as to why things are so.
Also, i tried entering the serial number onto the site. The serial number is engraved on the clarinet itself, and i put it in - multiple times - but it still says that there is no instrument with that serial number. This adds to my curiosity about my instrument and it's unknown origins.. Will have to see tomorrow. I will call once again to see if i can get in contact. I don't think this is an issue with WWBW rather it's with Buffet. I have no doubt it will be taken care of.
Thank You!
I will keep the forum posted as to what happens.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2011-08-07 17:13
Break,
Buffet Florida may not have responded immediately because: (1) it appears you called on a Saturday, and (2) Francois Kloc and other key personnel were probably still in L.A. at Clarinetfest in any case. FYI, the Buffet serial number list only goes through 2006 (or maybe Janurary, 2007) so, if your clarinet is more recent (which I would think it is), it will not show up on the list. The "Vintage" design derives from the original 1950s R13 so "Vintage" and "R13 Vintage" are synonymous. The left-hand Eb lever may not always have been standard on this model. It was not standard in 1955. Perhaps Buffet added it to the new model to help justify the higher price they charge for the Vintage. If that's the case, perhaps someone else on the Board will know when it first became standard. Also, if that's the case and the Eb lever only became standard recently, your instrument may have been made before the design changed. Where they are standard, Buffet makes their left-hand Eb levers easy to remove because some clarinetists don't like them. If your clarinet was originally fitted with the lever and it was subsequently removed, I would expect you might notice an unused post among your left-hand cluster keys. At least that's how the mechanism works on my Buffet bass clarinet. The design for sopranos could be different, though.
TPR,
The "Vintage" logo only appears on the upper joint. A mismatched lower joint would be obvious because the serial numbers would not agree.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: The Break
Date: 2011-08-07 17:38
I seem to be losing track of my days! Of course there would be no response on a Saturday...
But no, the instrument displays no signs of "used to be Eb lever." I all seems like.. it was just made without one. It would have been a special time for it to be old enough for it not to have the Eb lever, but new enough for the serial number not to be able to show. I'll see on Monday. Thank You so much for the advice, jnk!
.
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2011-08-07 18:12
The point about the serial numbers matching is well taken, but I wasn't worried so much about that, as I was trying to verify authentic Buffet product--top joint, lower joint, or both. : - )
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Author: The Break
Date: 2011-08-07 18:20
The serial number is on the bottom of the bottom joint, close to the bell, and at the bottom of the top joint. On the "back" of the clarinet - the side with the register key and thumb hole.. thumb rest..
checking out the year it's been manufactured will be hard to do, because the serial number doesn't show up on buffet's website. As Jack stated, this is most likely because the clarinet is newly manufactured and the buffet serial list only goes through 2006-jan. 2007.
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2011-08-07 19:55
I accidentally bumped this post to the top instead of simply referencing it here...sorry all
[http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=147579&t=147446
..but, as this post suggests, if the Vintage model didn't have this key (as long ago as 2004,) why in all this time would Buffet not update their website to reflect the absense of just such an Eb left hand key on the Vintage model....?
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2011-08-07 20:19
Two more things:
1) Does the clarinet in question have an adjustable thumb rest? I ask that to see if that too is a misprint on the Buffet website for the Vintage, or if it isn't, and you don't have just a thumb rest..what that could mean.
2) WWBW sold you the clarinet. They made profit. They're the dealer. I can't help but think that they should be doing at least some of this legwork with Buffet that they've asked you to do--not to mentioned that as one of their top Buffet dealers, they've probably got access to Buffet phone numbers that "don't appear on websites."
Their just as much in the legal chain of this transaction as is Buffet. Last I checked, the phrase goes, "the dealer stands behind the customer, and the manufacturer stands behind both the dealer and the customer."
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Author: The Break
Date: 2011-08-07 20:22
That's quite odd.. They do update their site, obviously, with news about clarinetfest.. their summer thing they have going.. AND the Tosca..
The absence of this key is.. i don't know.. sort of big. Not humongous, but the STANDARD aux Eb lever is something you would expect to get if you bought the instrument. Especially if it says it on the manufacturers website. And my Vintage must have been made after 2004, because the serial number doesn't work on their site..
Hopefully i'll have the answers myself on Monday.
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Author: djphay
Date: 2011-08-07 21:30
I play tested some Vintages at Howarths last year (only two or three) but they all had Eb levers fitted. I don't know when those instruments were made, however I understood the Vintage to be modelled on the 1955 R13 bore but with 'Prestige features' (ie including an Eb lever).
R13 Prestige experts will know more about this than I, but I understand the R13 Prestige to have had an Eb lever as standard for a considerable number of years. A friend of mine has R13 Prestiges that he bought in the late 1990s and they have the older style Eb levers. So it seems strange that your Vintage doesn't have an Eb lever at all.
Hope you get an answer one way or the other.
David
Rank amateur
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Author: The Break
Date: 2011-08-07 21:58
:/ that's so peculiar. This makes me even more curious! I feel like i'm missing out quite a bit on this Eb lever.. I would definitely prefer to have it.
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2011-08-07 23:30
with tongue in cheek
truth be told, in lawyer parlance, Buffet only says on the website that the higher end professional clarinets have Eb levers, without stipulating on which hand (both, left, right) said key is actuated.
..so, If I'm following this rationale, the right hand Eb key, standard on Boehm system horns for 100 years, is standard equipment on the Buffet STUDENT models (which is why it's not listed in such horn's specifications), but perhaps an added feature on the high end PROFESSIONAL models--and, to capstone this logic, "some horns have left hand Eb keys, but Buffet makes no mention on the website of which ones"?
This sarcasm speaks the message: if Vintages haven't had left hand Eb levers since 2004, what's Buffet waiting for to update this horn's specs on their website?
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Author: CocoboloKid
Date: 2011-08-08 03:20
Attachment: Buffet Vintage 1.jpg (79k)
If the Vintage is now being made with a standard LH Eb lever, this is quite a recent development, as I have never, ever seen a Vintage model with the Eb lever, and I know at least four people here in New York who play on them.
Below (and attached) are photos of brand-new Vintage model clarinets from various retailers, none of which have the LH Eb. It sounds as if you just bought one that was made before they started putting the key on as standard equipment. Even though you bought it in December, it's entirely possible that the particular clarinet you walked out with had been in stock for a while. (For example, Fossati professional oboes now all are made standard with gold rings and posts, and have been for a year or two, yet not only do the photos on the WWBW website not reflect this, the two I've recently received on trial did not have gold rings and posts. It's part of what one must accept when dealing with a retailer that carries a large amount of stock.)
http://www.saxquest.com/images/prod/BuffetR13Vintage1.jpg
http://www.saxquest.com/images/prod/BuffetR13Vintage4.jpg
http://www.wwbw.com/Buffet-Crampon-Vintage-R13-A-Clarinet-468464-i1419946.wwbw
The WWBW link above states in the description that the instrument comes with the LH Eb key, but the instrument photographed, while obviously a Vintage (you can make out the "Vintage" badge on the upper joint when you enlarge the image), does not have the left-hand Eb key on it.
If you really like that particular clarinet, and you really want that key, you're probably just going to have to get one fitted to the instrument by a repairperson.
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2011-08-08 13:26
I take no issue with Coco's above clear rationale and logic given the plausable argument that the LH Eb key was added to the model later in production. In addition, I concur that his approach to remedy this may be the most pragmatic--even if difficult to effect, given that making a full blown bruhaha with Buffet may require "lawyers and money," that just isn't available.
That said, maybe it's the consumer advocate in me, but I'd like to note, somewhat albeit cynically, (as Coco mentioned the repairperson solution), that Francois Kloc of Buffet is a repairperson--catching my drift? (wink)
Sorry, the car paradigm again. In September, when new models cars come out, with new features, in order to clear out last year's inventory, price reductions are offered on these prior year models. Most consumers realize that the book/resale value of what they're buying is less, and may have less features, simply by virtue of the vehicle's model year alone. They drive just as new a vehicle off the lot as those who buy the new model, but the older one is worth less---and in a transparent market where all relevant facts are known, consumers are expected to pay a reduced price for their accomodation.
So I can't help but think--as this paradigm applies to many industries--not just the auto industry (which I provide as an example b/c all can relate to) that consumers have a right to know the relevant facts when making purchase (i.e. "hey buddy, do realize you're buying an older Vintage (no pun intended) sans LH Eb key, at a new Vintage with LH Eb key price.")
And what, WWBW, though a reputable outfit, doesn't move enough horns to be expected to be on top of such product changes that, at the very least, if they don't know this information that they should, that THEY, not the end consumer (alone,) follow up, or at least share in following up with Buffet for a definitive answer?
Because a dealer may not disclose relevant facts about a product, even if in good faith b/c they did not disclose those facts b/c they did not know them, makes the consumer ("The Break" in this case) no less entitled to them.
Again--maybe the horn never had this LH Eb, which would render this argument moot, were it not for the fact that Buffet says it does--err-correction--techinically they say the horn has an Eb lever.
Funny, the horn comes with a ligature too, and yet you don't see that mentioned in the specs--suggesting that the referenced to an Eb lever, we ALL agree, since it's standard right hand equipment, must mean a LEFT hand actuated Eb lever.
I wrote a thread not long back on retrofitting just such a key.
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=351055&t=351055
Those in the know had the general consensus that doing this on a regular R13 was "highly non-trivial" both in finding someone willing to do this, let alone what they might charge. Not even Morrie Bakun (and I don't blame him) wanted to do this.
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Author: CocoboloKid
Date: 2011-08-08 13:49
It seems that the common legal disclaimer "Specifications Subject To Change Without Notice" was made for just such situations as this :-)
I'm not really sure it's all THAT huge of a deal to get a LH Eb affixed to a clarinet...I believe our own Chris Peryagh has done this several times, and could possibly lend his expertise on the matter. My own repairman, Mike Manning, has also done it (and is about to do it again on his own clarinet, I believe), so it's definitely not impossible, though perhaps may be a bit labor intensive.
Definitely worth an ask around, though, I'd say!
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Author: Brad Behn
Date: 2011-08-08 14:45
Buffet Vintage clarinets are made with two different setups:
European market gets the alternate key and gortex pads and is priced higher (in the prestige bracket).
American market gets standard setup, no extra key and lower pricing.
Brad Behn
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2011-08-08 17:27
Brad: That makes sense. I saw European dealers on the web selling Vintages and making claims of LH Eb keys.
Coco: Yes, you're right. Chris Peryagh did respond to my original post on LH Eb levers and your hunch about his abilities to retrofit this are correct according to Chris.
Sadly, you, and I presume your repair tech Mr. Manning appear to be "across the pond" from "The Break" and I. Know anyone in the States doing this work?
Thanks.
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Author: CocoboloKid
Date: 2011-08-08 17:38
Huh? I live in New York City! Manning's shop is on 35th St. at 9th avenue...
(By "our own Chris P", I meant the BB's own, not Britain's own )
Post Edited (2011-08-08 18:28)
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2011-08-08 17:47
I got a Vintage A clarinet approx 3 years ago from a well-respected US dealer...no aux Eb lever. The G#\C#3 tone hole is, as advertised, elevated. The register tonehole is also raised.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2011-08-08 18:41
gotcha coco...
given your IP's lack of location details, and the odds of another Chris P responding to my post on being able to add LH Eb levels..well..honest mistake, thanks for the clarrification--good news for me too if I want to get this done, being just North of Manhattan...
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2011-08-08 18:50
wait--we were talking the same Chris P "across the pond"..but bottom line Manning's within 15 miles of each of us...now I got it!
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Author: The Break
Date: 2011-08-08 21:04
Thank You for all of your responses! I called today and a man answered. Not even letting me finish : i say
" i have a question about my Buffet Crampon Bb Vintage Cl--
"You'll have to talk to the dealers about that"
and i tell the man that the dealers told me to contact you.. He says "okay, let me contact the technicians." and he hangs up!
Definitely opposite of what i was told Buffet Crampon's services were to be. And the differences between the European market and US market do make sense, since Howarth is in london, it would make sense that all of them would have Eb levers. But i feel so ripped off. So much more money for raised tone holes.
.. raised tone holes..
I don't find it necessary to get it retrofitted. It's not worth the labor and my time without my clarinet.
The times we all wish we had a time machine.. huh..
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2011-08-08 22:37
I'm sorry Breakie--I mean in 2 ways. Sorry for the outcome, and sorry as in "I'm sorry, but that's not really okay in my book what happened to you."
Buffet's website and homepage make a point of having you click the country you're interesting in, not the language you're talking in. Nevermind both a click of the U.K. and an click of the U.S. icons on the homepage both lead you to the same English version of the site--it was Buffet's perogative to set their website up that way (that the U.K and U.S. would both point to the same place) ...but it was also Buffet's choice to delineate their website by country.
Along these lines, the product offerings pages that resulted could have been set up along country lines, not common languages, reflecting their different marketing to different countries, as Brad discussed above, and that Buffet, on their own, choose to do. And yes, maybe that would have been more web work for Buffet to maintain, but sorry, when companies make different product offerings in different countries, their websites have to reflect that. I suspect that was the precise reason the homepage was segregated originally by country in the first place (to permit the website to easily advertise locality specific product offerings). That Buffet didn't choose to have the U.K. and U.S. icons point to different webpages is their choice and responsibility.
Now..maybe (maybe not) WWBW is legally off the hook from their disclaimer at the bottom of their webpage, as Coco alludes to, but Buffet, who was also in the economic chain of the purchase, and therefore legally responsible as well, doesn't seem to make such disclaimers on the very website they have this erroneous information--information that's been wrong to the U.S. public for probably years.
That you didn't discover this until now should not dilute your claim. Lots of legal precedent exists for holding companies responsible for false claims. There's a reason companies hire proof readers. The very same time that you took to discover this was the time that Buffet also had to also rectify their website on their own. Think of it THAT way.
Let Buffet send you a bunch of the (better) UK Vintages to try, and see if you want to exchange one of them for your existing one--or at least compensate you in some way. Let Buffet let you pick from a bunch of U.S. Vintages to borrow, while you get yours, at Buffet's tab, Eb key upgraded.
For those who say I'm being tough on Buffet, I'm not. Enforcement of company claims, or restitution when the don't meet them is one of the key ways to get organizations to be accountable for their claims to the consumer. In no way should, nor does this being an honest mistake on Buffet's part--asumming it is--allow them to shrug their shoulders. In such a world, all companies that misquote product specs could claim a mistake as their defense.
And companies who make it seem like their doing you a favor helping to rectify their mistakes that you point out, even Buffet, whose clarinets I've played for 30+ years, are IMHO, not acceptable. And I have utterly no fiduciary relationship here that would present a conflict of interest.
Sorry but most of the better companies simply play legal, not fair. Trust me Breakie--if Buffet gives you a bunch of Tosca's (i.e. LH Eb) to choose from in exchange for your Vintage, I promise you, you'll find one you like at least as much as your Vintage. It it will be cheaper for Buffet to do this 1 time for you, than to start upgrading every U.S. Vintage in a class action matter.
I won't let my love for Buffet clarinets cloud my belief in fair markets requiring open and honest communication.
Funny, had you payed for your horn in Yen, not dollars, and said (tongue in cheek) "oh sorry, I thought you meant Yen--got my countries confused" do you think WWBW and Buffet would shrug their shoulders and say, "no big deal Breakie---keep the change, it's not like we don't also make cross country [marketing] mistakes."
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2011-08-09 01:41
Watching "Boston Legal" (or Judge Judy for that matter) does not a legal expert make. If one wants to give legal advice, it is wise to attend law school and pass the bar exam first. I'm just sayin'....
jnk
and malpractice insurance probably isn't a bad idea.
Post Edited (2011-08-09 02:01)
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Author: The Break
Date: 2011-08-09 02:56
I find Reed's statements helpful to the topic. I personally believe his comment helped me out more than yours, jack - criticizing him on his scholarly achievements.
..just sayin'...
Also, reed, there's no need for you to be sorry. It isn't your fault. I'm deciding if i want to go through with this.. the trouble.
I don't want to take legal action. This is something i WILL definitely avoid.
But, the fact is that I'd have to go without my Clarinet for.. weeks? Because 1) i'd have to mail my clarinet out to them. 2) They would have to mail clarinets to me
3) i would either have to wait to receive my old clarinet back with an Eb key, or send back the other "trial" clarinets.
That is assuming they go along with that "plan."
I have my last summer concert this Thursday, and I would, of course, need my clarinet before that. I love practicing my clarinet.. I have another one that i could practice on, but it's an old one, it would do for practicing purposes, i suppose.
I will call back friday perhaps? I hope to get another customer sales rep. and if not... argue about it..
This isn't WWBW's fault. They DO have the disclaimer and they obviously just copied and pasted their specifications right off of buffet's site. They sell what they get.
Buffet sending me UK Vintage's is probably out of the question.. They would have to have some mailed from the UK's manufacturing site.. off to the US.. to me. That would probably take a month! It would be easier to give me a prestige. But, of course, why would they do that? That clarinet is more expensive than mine, and therefore they would lose money. So it's not in the better of the business' interests. I'm wondering what they would have to say.. or do..
If there's a "protocol" for things like this.. and if it has happened before?
I doubt i'm the first one.. but i also doubt they have some type of policy that can notify them of what to do in these situations..
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2011-08-09 15:44
Jack: couldn't agree more. I don't play clarinet for a living (read between the lines) although I do have 40+ years experience with the horn, and not that I have anything whatsoever but enormous respect for those who do make their living in the craft.
By the way, you don't need malpractice insurance for offering the opinions or fact I did. Drawing CONCLUSIONS, like "Buffet is legally culpable," which I did not---that's another story. But I respect you and your right to opinion. It too requires no malpractice insurance as it's mere opinion.
That's as far as I'll be willing to take this portion of the thread sir. You can rebut, I likely won't.
Breakie:
1) I don't care if Buffet first sends you 7 Tosca's, tomorrow, for you to choose one to take on loaner, while you mail back, at Buffet's expense, your horn (overnight mail thank you very much) and the 6 remaining Tosca's--whereafter they fix your horn the next day, and have it back to you the day after that, whereafter you return their Tosca--again at their shipping expense.
2) Never assume a disclaimer, explicit or implicit is a magic bullet get out of jail free card for the vendor. I'm not saying it can't help reduce their legal exposure, I'm saying that disclaimers aren't always ironclad. Funny, we can all assume that I'd prefer that someone not burglarize my home, and yet, if the buglar slips and falls on my property while doing so, perhaps even if I post "no tresspassing" signs on my property, wanna bet said buglar may have a reasonable claim at collecting damages from me.
Breakie: I completely respect your desire--even if the legal work was done pro bono for you, to not get into litigation with Buffet. Do note though that a) your opinions can change, b) companies often depend upon good people who don't want to make trouble, in their corporate decisions to do less than ethical or responsible things.
Breakster: fault and responsibility are 2 seperate things. What---if you, presumtively not in the musical instrument sales business, can spot this discrepancy on the Vintage's specs, WWBW, a leader mover of Buffet horns in the States can't? If WWBW was negatively financially impacted by this mistake of, I'll assume, relying on Buffet's ad copy, they can feel free, independent of you, to settle this matter with Buffet.
Again-the automotive industry: A fault is detected on your vehicle. A part does not work according to spec, perhaps even being dangerous. The dealer fixes it for you gratis, and the manufacturer pays the dealer, private to you.
> Buffet sending me UK Vintage's is probably out of the question.
"You're right Breakie"--I say to invoke a battle cry in you. "You don't matter."
Why is it out of the question? Buffet doesn't have offices in the U.K. from which they can overnight you a bunch of U.K. Vintages to try (assuming this all goes down like Brad said)?
You would not believe some of the accomodations companies I've worked for have made to people for not only Public Relations, but to avoid a situation. Issues were not only rectified, apologies for incovenience in the form of gifts were often dispersed.
Just as you don't want to get involved legally, do you think Buffet wants to shell out $ to be represented in legal matters?
Why would Buffet give you a Prestige?....to help retain their prestige (pun intended), whose monetary value is likely a lot greater than the loss they'd take on upgrading your horn.
..not in their business interest.....? Buffet, if it's a smartly run company, makes (legal) decisions based upon the best projected monetary value..and there is potential brand dilution at play here for not accomodating you....and brand dilution costs companies money. They have to sell less product and lower prices as a result often of such dilution.
Buffet does not sell ear swabs for a living-or some other dispationate product that consumers use--like asprin. Their success is integrally linked to working with their customers to produce the quality horns that generate them sales. The very R13 Vintage you play was conceived of by asking players what they liked about the early model R13's from back in the day. And the very LH Eb lever you lack, but was advertised as coming with the horn wasn't conceived of from outer space. It came from loyal customers who voluntarily suggested that such a lever would be really helpful.
Do you think in response Buffet should say, "great idea, we'll make an R13 with such a device...no....scratch that...to save $ will offer an R13 that we advertise as having that feature, but then not deliver it."
I welcome---I encourage dissenter's opinions. One caveat: do not let your love or dislike of Buffet horns play a factor here.
Breakie: were it me, I'd follow up with Buffet. If they don't respond, or respond in a way that suggests they will do nothing, write a certified letter to Francois Klock and copy the letter to the top dog in Paris. We can strategize offline if you'd like.
Think of it this way: you fighting the good fight prevents you, and others like you from false advertising--intentional or not.
Breakie: though I wish it weren't the case..in this world, 1) the squeaky wheel gets the grease, 2) and smart people know when it's best to be squeaky or quiet. Do not be surprised if Buffet doesn't do "jack" for you unless you are ready, willing and able to litigate, and they know that.
Oh yes--I have saved to disk the current product spec change page from Buffet's U.S. Vintage horn. I would not bat an eyelash if any company, Buffet included, quietly changed this page in the interim. You don't think they read bboards like this??
While I won't represent you, do let me know what I can do to help and motivate you to put up a fight for that you're entitled to.
Parting thought: there's a reason why, when supermarkets mislabel a product's price to the customer's benefit, that that price is usually honored.
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2011-08-10 00:21
Funny---the French and Japanese links off the Buffet website (thank you Microsoft Translate) don't claim to offer a Vintage with a LH Eb key...hmmm
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2011-08-12 09:38
Often the stock at the big discounters is 6 months old. If a model change happened, that would be it.
Just like if you bought software at a large computer warehouse that the next edition came out a couple of months ago, but you bought the older version not knowing that it had been updated. I used to see that at some of the big name office supply stores.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2011-08-12 14:42
If our poster's situation were the result of a model change--ok--maybe I'd buy that David.
But my example, the auto industry, and yours, software, are less than perfect paradigms for what goes on with Buffet's product line in specific, or the musical instrument industry in general.
The marketplace expects software changes. Developers seem to always be coming out with patches, bug fixes and new versions--most of which is available to existing customers for free or at minimal charge to download from the internet. More customers, I think at least, are apt to ask themselves, as it regards software at least, if the version of "Product X" they're buying in shrink wrap in the stores (as brick and mortar software puchasing wanes quickly over internet distribution--making the chances of buying last year's software moot) is current.
But again--your point is well taken. Current theory, not fact, though has us believing that this product difference was a result of marketing 2 different versions of the Vintage to the US and UK, and not about changes to the product line across time, the world over.
In the auto industry, more (if not all) consumers know that purchasing last year's model in the Fall, when manufacturer's are about to release their new model, comes at a cost savings to the consumer, given their willingness to accept an older, less feature rich product, whose book value is less, and which has otherwise depreciating faster, as much of that 1st year's massive depreciation has occured while the vehicle sat new in the dealer's lot.
If this clarinet issue were to turn out to be a result of model change, I think, Buffet had an obligation to promptly make that information known in the marketplace, so consumers could make informed purchases of older Vintages, at a price advantage to the new ones.
David--I have enormous respect for everything you say on the board. I'm just playing the role of consumer advocate here.
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The Clarinet Pages
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