 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: TianL
Date: 2011-08-04 17:41
when you have to play claron G, A, or B, say quarter notes at 100-120 bpm, but you want very short staccatos, do you stop the air pressure in between the notes?
i always get scared to play stuff like this. it's much easier for me to tongue at a faster tempo. any thoughts on how one should do these and how to practice?
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2011-08-04 18:20
Use your tongue to stop the reed from vibrating,and to stop the airflow.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-08-04 18:21
TianL -
If you mean 16th notes at quarter note = 100-120, you absolutely must keep the air pressure steady. In fact, one of the main reasons intermediate players have trouble with a quick staccato is that they have the abdomen pulsing with each note.
Play clarion G with your right hand off the instrument and the bell on your knee or between your knees. Then play staccato 16ths at 100 and rest your right hand on your belly just below the ribs. If you feel any pulsation at all, you're using large, slow muscles instead of just the small, quick ones in the tip of your tongue.
An exercise for curing the problem is to tongue short staccatos, one per second (60 bpm), keeping the embouchure and air stream absolutely constant -- i.e., the same pressure whether or not you're playing -- and moving only the tip of your tongue to let the sound start (with no extra puff of air) and stop it only by moving the tip of your tongue back against the reed.
This takes a while to learn -- maybe a week of hard work. When you go back to using both hands on the clarinet, it's easy to drop back into making puffs with your abdomen. Give it your best time, in the first 5 or 10 minutes of each practice session. If you feel pulsation in your belly, stop immediately, take a 10 second rest and start again with steady pressure. Even when you get the right feel, check for a few seconds once in a while to remind yourself what to do.
Now back to that I think is your question. If you're playing one note per beat at 100-120, you should not let the air pressure stop, or even got lower, during the silences. The musical phrase probably continues over the group of staccatos. Continuous blowing helps you keep things going. Also, letting the pressure vary means practicing the wrong way for when the notes get faster.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-08-04 18:39
But Ken, you're not saying to produce "TUT, TUT, TUT....." are you?
I would think at that speed, you would want a 'rounder,' more tapered decay. So, I would recommend the "abdominal" stop for this tempo. Naturally a fast staccato IS "tut, tut, tut......" no question about it.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: TianL
Date: 2011-08-04 18:42
Ken, yes, I meant one note per beat at 100-120, so very slow staccato. I don't actually have any issues tongue sixteenth at 100-120.. but when I tongue slow staccatos, if I don't stop the air pressure in between notes, it just feels weird because during the silence:
- if my tongue is as light on the reed as when I tongue fast, then the tip of the reed doesn't completely seal with the mouthpiece and the air just leaks through the instrument;
- now if I close the reed completely with my tongue, then I can't get a clean start on the next staccato.
And of course I'm talking about the high G, A, and B right above the staff.
Post Edited (2011-08-04 18:44)
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2011-08-04 19:06
If you close the reed completely with your tongue _without_ continuing air pressure, your staccato will not be clean. Practice on open G before working on these higher notes to get the gist of it.
Then when you're practicing the notes you need, try to practice with different lengths of notes and spaces. That is, play with a short note followed by a long space (where you're still blowing and your embouchure and jaw are held as if you're making sound) and mix it up...short notes/short spaces, long notes/ long spaces, long notes/short spaces etc.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2011-08-04 20:20
"- if my tongue is as light on the reed as when I tongue fast, then the tip of the reed doesn't completely seal with the mouthpiece and the air just leaks through the instrument;
- now if I close the reed completely with my tongue, then I can't get a clean start on the next staccato."
Hi TianL -- my staccato is the first one. I never close the reed all the way and I have a very crisp staccato. It is possible to have the problem you describe in your second statement whether you close the reed entirely or not.
I would suggest that one of two things is happening when you experience this problem: either you embouchure is changing subtly when you create the silence and then has to "return" to it's proper place OR you are inelegantly releasing the reed back into the air stream. Or, in theory, both are happening simultaneously.
To solve the problem (in a very similar fashion to the first page in that Kell staccato book)-- play any of these notes for two beats and then rest for two beats. The two beats of rest are created by placing the tongue on the reed and continuing to blow at the exact same level/pressure.
You already know how to do that part, it's the next part that's important.
Make sure during the silence that there is no change in your embouchure or your air, and make sure that you can hear the note you want to play before you release the reed. Then simply draw the tongue back and the note will begin again. If it doesn't, you have to explore the moment of re-releasing the reed and discover what variable has changed or fallen out of position whether it be embouchure, tongue (tip or back), or air.
Good luck!
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-08-04 22:53
Keep in mind that there isn't one way to do staccato. There's been no discussion so far in this thread (or I've missed it by reading too carelessly) about the musical context, which will go a long way to determining how each note should end. Even at a slow tempo if a very dry staccato is needed (a lot of Stravinsky comes immediately to mind), stopping the reed very quickly with your tongue (tut..tut..tut or dut..dut.dut) may be the only way to produce it. If the notes want musically to be a little rounder the slight taper that comes from stopping the air pressure (duh..duh..duh) may be more appropriate.
What *is* important, and I think more or less invariable barring any unusual musical reason, is that to get a clean attack the air pressure from the lungs must precede the tongue's release of the reed, however little a time difference it turns out to be. The pressure of the tongue against the reed just before the release will mostly determine the force of the beginning of the note, again variable according to musical context. But if the tongue moves first, the release will not be as clean or, at least, not as immediate.
So, in my own opinion, what you do during the silence isn't so important so long as the air pressure starts before the tongue moves. If the notes are slow enough to allow the breathing muscles to relax in between, it won't cause an audible problem so long as the air-followed-by-release sequence is maintained.
Karl
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-08-05 00:43
Ken Shaw strikes again!
That's the same exercise (60 bpm staccato w/ constant airflow) that my instructor recommended and it greatly enhanced my playing.
Quote:
So, in my own opinion, what you do during the silence isn't so important so long as the air pressure starts before the tongue moves. I also believe this. For most playing, I will keep constant pressure ala Ken Shaw's method. Works great for me. But in some cases I will stop the air pressure and just start the air pressure before the next one if I have enough time.
And Ken's exercise is awesome!
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: TianL
Date: 2011-08-05 16:37
Karl, that makes sense. So I guess both methods are valid, and I probably should practice and perfect both.
I tried what James suggested last night and focused to really catch any changes of my embouchure, tongue, and air flow, and I think things are getting better and better
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-08-05 22:25
Without going into great detail a few key things to remember:
-First and foremost is the style of staccato required (detache, or spicatto? -remember staccato simply means separated so there are many interpretations.) You're mention of clarion A reminds me of the famous repeated clarion A's in Beethoven's Fifth Symphony (2nd mvmt.) that so many fear. Also the "Clockwork movement of Beethoven 8'th, or the Gran Partita (Partitta?!?) 2nd movement. These could be considered a style of staccato that are quite varied (and very different than spicatto.)
-Through these varied styles of staccato (which it sounds like you are confusing with spicatto) you may want to keep air pressure constant (same blowing pressure, started and stopped with the tongue) or alter diaphragmatic support to slightly (with a constant/stable) abdominal push to alter the flow/pressure of air- it all depends on the context of the music FIRST AND FOREMOST.
-One "problem" I used to fight was maintaining a constant air pressure while my tongue was on the reed, releasing the sound and then stopping it by simply returning the tongue. (This could be considered a form of staccato, but not truly the text-book definition. It would work great for very pointed, separated notes like in Stravinsky or minimalist works, but was not fit for other styles.) One trap with this method is that one can build up too much pressure behind the tongue in the oral cavity, making it very easy to have an explosion of sorts upon the release of the note. I eventually found blowing against a "blocked" reed for a lengthy time caused a great deal of tension; at least for me.
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Just a few things I found for myself that may/or may not help you (or hopefully make you rightly confused as Tony Pay would say!!!!)
(all of this presumes your are supplying air from "down low" as is prescribed by most all) Also, you must define what is the tip of the tongue and the tip of the reed for yourself.
-Tongue Pressure Choose any note you will, lightly place you tongue on the reed (tip to tip or however you envision it) and blow. That note will still sound (a bit flat); slightly increase tongue pressure until the sound stops; release tongue pressure until sound returns all the while keeping your tongue on the reed. While this is not how we articulate, it is valuable to show how little pressure is need to stop the vibrations of the reed.
-Air Staccato Take a deep (but don't force tons of air in) breath without the clarinet. Place a hand on your abdomen and feel the natural expansion, contract your abs a bit like you wanted to blow a mf/f; hold the air in but without closing your throat or chest (what muscle do you think is doing this outward flow?- more to come) Purse you lips. Let air flow out through your lips, at a p/mp, in quick "bursts" without changing the amount of flexion of your abdominals. (What muscle is releasing the air? ..... The expansion of your abdominal area will slowly come in, but that is totally natural.) Now repeat the same on an open G (air only). You will produce a staccato, though not extremely "crisp". Maintain you hand on the abs and strive for the same feel of flexion throughout.
-"Hee" staccato Inhale in the same method, hold air without closing throat or chest, place hand on abdomen. Form embouchure, and lightly place tip of tongue on reed (open G). Release air again at a p/mp, however at a constant rate this time. With the tip of the tongue on the reed listen for a "heeeee" sound of the air escaping the tip opening with no note sounding, release the tongue sounding the G, and return tongue to the "heeeeee" sound. Repeat. Again this is simply showing how little tongue "force" is needed to stop the tone this time even though air is still passing through the tip.
-Detache Staccato Start open G with air only, with hand on abs at a mf. Begin a quick decrescendo (maintaining same ab flexion throughout) and at p place tip on tongue on reed but stop the note with no "hee" sound afterwards. Voila- detache articulation. (Is the reed touching the mouthpiece tip? I don't' know as I don't have a camera inside my mouth. It is simply important to listen for a crisp stop of the tone.)
-"Blowing Staccato" Inhale the same, hands on abs. Blow at mp again- start open G with air only. Maintain ab feel throughout- stop the sound (no 'hee' sound from air escaping through the mouthpiece tip opening) with the tongue using a light crisp motion (I think of pronouncing 'ut' when doing this- after reading Tony's post I see he thinks of 'ud') maintain the light constant air pressure, and release the tongue from the reed with the same "crisp" quick motion (this produces the sound/vowel "u", or which ever you are using, and then you simply stop the sound by returning the tongue to the reed- the "t"- then release again. It's more about thinking of releasing the sound rather than stopping it; "or 'stop stopping' the previous one" if I may plagerize from Tony's link. ........ 'ut' 'ut' 'ut', or 'ud' 'ud' 'ud' as Tony has also referred to. I suppose you could restart the note using only air as well, but you can play around with that as you will.) ; repeat ad naseaum. Say, at quarter=80 or so. When comfortable add a decrescendo (w/same ab flexion throughout) with same articulation clarity. Now add a crescendo (at some point you may need to flex your abdominals a bit more) but still maintaining the same clarity of articulation. When this is comfortable begin to increase the tessitura with the same feel as a base line for separated articulation.
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When these things become comfortable, it can be become apparent how many variables are available in articulation- with differing combinations of air volume, varying levels of support (or the "magic" muscle- the diaphragm controlling the flow of air with consistently activated abdominals) and tongue motion/pressure (a bit more crisp "firm" tongue movement can be needed in certain music, i.e. more modernistic compositions in general.)
These are not intended to be the only solutions for your issue, but are simply some things that helped me become a less idiotic clarinetist and have helped my students. Slow "staccato" often does not sound ideal with constant blowing regulated only by the tongue, but rather with air changes/ releases regulated by the diaphragm (the magical muscle refereed to above) combined with the actions of the tongue.
Quickly articulated passages often do need a constant flow of air, but that does not lock us in, nor doom us, to using this tactic only for all forms of articulation. In fact, in quickly articulated passages, the action of the diaphragm can accent notes to show agogic stresses, accents, phrases etc... without destroying the flow of air.
Experiment and see what works best for you as there are a myriad of combinations we have at our arsenal.
I'll edit later for clarity
-JH
Post Edited (2011-08-10 01:14)
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-08-06 01:34
A few quick things I forgot.
1. When you are releasing the note with air pressure behind it, take care not to push the reed in towards the mouthpiece tip before you release the note.
2. Perhaps try these things laying on your back with a pillow under your head. This can help isolate you lower abdominal muscles and ensure your neck muscles are not involved in the equation
-JH
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2011-08-06 09:22
I once wrote an article about staccato, posted here, that suggested that running staccato passages -- what we normally think of as articulation -- should be dealt with in a different way from isolated staccato notes. Isolated notes, in this view, are a special case:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=316748&t=316712&v=t
Of course, usually, it's taught the other way round: in that view, you think of a running staccato passage as 'made up of' isolated staccato notes.
But if Tianlai wants to understand how to resolve the difficulty of what to do in the circumstances he outlines -- and, by the way, it's a difficulty that I had myself, and failed fully to understand for some years -- I suggest the following.
You have to realise that the air pressure that drives the reed can be controlled at the very beginning -- namely, where the opposition between the abdominal/back muscles (the 'blowing' muscles) and the diaphragm (the 'support' muscle) occurs. This control has counterintuitive aspects, because the diaphragm has no sensory nerves in it.
It's quite different from using abdominal 'pushes'. Because, in this view of events, that abdominal 'blowing' remains constant, and it is the varying diaphragmatic resistance to that blowing that has the sound start -- and to diminuendo, if the music wants the note to have more of a shape.
If you produce a sequence of short notes in this way without using your tongue at all at the beginning of each note -- remember that your abdominals remain firm and immobile throughout -- you have the strange and rather miraculous experience of the notes coming out 'like magic', without your seeming to do anything.
Then, as suggested in the article (Metaphors 5 & 6, the Bow and the Hosepipe) you can use your tongue 'cosmetically'.
There is a collateral psychological advantage: you get to choose the amount of support in the moments before the first note of the sequence (it corresponds to the degree of flexion of your abdominal/back muscles). But then, the dynamic of the staccato notes is still independent of that degree of support! In fact, with strong support, you can play pp staccato and ff staccato with the same physical experience. I find that realisation to be a great confidence builder; you can approach a pp staccato passage by 'setting yourself up' to play ff.
I wrote much of the above last night, and notice this morning that Buster has already written about the central point in his own post. However, I decided to let this shorter post stand. (Its last paragraph applies particularly well to the Beethoven V passage he mentions.)
Tony
Post Edited (2011-08-06 09:42)
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2011-08-06 13:34
Interesting video on the 'air articulation'. In many people's experience this was discouraged very early on in their clarinet lessons. One notes in the video how effortless it appears. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAVkIQmBOdk It probably shouldn't be your first choice for staccato but there would be some occasions when it would be very appropriate.
Freelance woodwind performer
Post Edited (2011-08-06 13:40)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2011-08-06 14:50
>>Interesting video on the 'air articulation'. In many people's experience this was discouraged very early on in their clarinet lessons.>>
Of course, many people's early clarinet lessons are presided over by ignoramuses. It woud be nice if postings to this BBoard did more to correct the situation.
Instead, we get statements like: "If you're playing one note per beat at 100-120, you should not let the air pressure stop, or even got lower, during the silences. The musical phrase probably continues over the group of staccatos. Continuous blowing helps you keep things going. Also, letting the pressure vary means practicing the wrong way for when the notes get faster."
The crucial consideration is HOW the air articulation is achieved. If it's done by abdominal pulses, that's one thing. If it's done by variation of diaphragm action, against constant abdominal pressure, that's another. The air pressure DOES get lower; but through diaphragmatic opposition to the abdominal/back system.
The first doesn't transition well to fast, tongue-modulated interruptions of reed vibration.
The second, however, does. And it gives you much greater elegance and flexibility for the playing of isolated notes.
Tony
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-08-06 17:17
My Dear Tony -
Keeping the breath constant while tonguing staccato notes, with no abdominal pulsation, is a foundation physical skill that every beginner must master. While an advanced player needs to know when to do otherwise, the beginner must walk before running.
Keeping a musical phrase going through notes separated by rests is, I suggest, a central musical skill. So is knowing when to end a phrase and begin another. Doing one doesn't undercut the other.
I'd very much like to get back to what we're all here for, to share technical and musical knowledge about the clarinet.
Ken Shaw
Post Edited (2011-08-06 17:23)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2011-08-06 17:23
>> Keeping the breath constant while tonguing staccato notes, with no abdominal pulsation, is a foundation physical skill that every beginner must master. While an advanced player needs to know when to do otherwise, the beginner must walk before running.>>
So, you didn't even understand what I said.
Forget you, Ken.
Tony
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2011-08-07 02:00
Each instrument has its own techniques. We take for granted the clarinet's ease of slurring notes. Compare this to the trombone. With the human voice we see something comparable to 'air articulation' with the melismatic passages such as http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUszxbemzV0&feature=related The voice doesn't have the luxury of using a 't' or 'd' articulation. It has a text to consider as well as the written note.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-08-10 00:37
Sorry to re-hash this thread several days after the fact, but I have been laid up in bed and just saw something of key importance I left out in my post above.
In the "Blowing Staccato" (I'm no good at making up terminology so I'd ask you'd abide this one. Quite obviously you have to blow to produce a staccato, or any note for that fact, so that is a bit of an oxy-moronic term.) The key to that one was to release and stop the note with the tongue, which I stupidly left out. I will now promptly go back and fix it.
Sorry for any confusion.
-JH
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Author: TianL
Date: 2011-08-10 04:16
Jason, in fact, thanks for bringing it back up! For some weird reason, I missed all the 8/6-8/7 replies. I remember I checked and didn't see the post anymore, so I thought it got buried already! Anyways I'm going to read everyone's comments now.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2011-08-10 04:35
On studying the oboe for a few years with my late fine teacher who was a student himself of Debuescher, I was instructed that, on that instrument, one can play effective isolated staccato notes by starting the tone with the tongue and stopping it with the breath. The end of the note is, of course, not stopped as sharply as a note cut off by the tongue. The player can add life to the sound by playing a breath vibrato on that very short note. He had no explanation other than that and he demonstrated that it really worked and I have used it as well. Tabuteau also did something similar when needed.
One also plays staccato, of course, by turning the breath on and off with only the tongue as on the clarinet.
Thanks for your interesting discussions!
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Author: TianL
Date: 2011-08-10 07:06
Tony - I re-read your "All that stuff about the diaphragm" and it's very helpful. I remember reading it several years ago and it didn't make complete sense.. but just now it did and I gotta try it tomorrow.. I think before I was experimenting all sorts of things without really knowing where the differences I was subconsciously making. But now I know it's that "support level" I think for a lot of players it's not important to understand the exact mechanisms but I always find it useful to know exactly what's going on.
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