 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: BassClarinetBaby
Date: 2011-07-27 02:09
I have played on Vandoren Blue Box reeds for the last few years, as that and the standard Rico (which do not like) is all my local music store stocks. A few months ago I ordered a box of Vandoren V12s and have been quite satisfied with them, although found them not too different to the Blue Box reeds. My clarinet teacher recently gave me one of her Rico Reserves to try. Articulation and ease of playing in the upper registers was intantly improved (something I struggled with on the Vandorens) but my tone was not as good (in my opinion). My teacher then suggested I try some Mitchell Lurie reeds as she finds them to produce good tone and ease of articulation. What are others thoughts on these reeds? They are considerably cheaper than the V12s, so if they play better for me then I'll be ecstatic. Thanks for all answers.
Never Bb, sometimes B#, and always B natural! ♫♪
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Author: emie_em<3
Date: 2011-07-27 02:18
I've used Lurie reeds before, and I found them highly preferred over standard Ricos, but I personally like Vandoren reeds much better. Although, no matter what everyone here says, you should still see if it's possible for you to try out Lurie reeds.
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Author: Madame
Date: 2011-07-27 02:22
try a Lurie if you can - no break-in period, from what I've found. I like 'em a lot, but I've never tried Vandoren.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-07-27 08:19
I'm playing on Mitchell Luries (regular, not reserve) for years now. They are quite consistent, I hardly ever have a real dud in a box. No break-in required, just wet a fresh one in your mouth, clamp on and get going. Easy articulation, good sound. Certainly worth a try!
--
Ben
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2011-07-27 12:21
Lurie reeds are (or used to be - I haven't used them for years) a "thin" blank reed, like Vandoren traditionals (blue box). If you were comfortable with the Vandorens and didn't find the thicker blank reeds (V12) to be an improvement, the Luries would be worth a try (but, in my opinion, anything is always worth a try at least once).
FWIW, years ago when a distributorship problem arose and Vandorens suddenly became unavailable here for a couple of years, many of the players in the Philadelphia area, including Anthony Gigliotti, started using Luries and got excellent results from them. Things change, and Mitchell Lurie is no longer around to keep an eye on the quality of the reeds, but they were at one time a very good alternative to Vandoren.
Karl
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Author: 2cekce ★2017
Date: 2011-07-27 13:18
Ive been playing on Luries for years, took a small break to try some vandorens and others but found the vans to be very inconsistent out of the box
so went back to my Lurie premiums. I tried vans because the local stores here
would never have the Luries in the strength I needed and couldnt wait for an order, so now they are back in demand here. they run on the soft side but play right out of the box without breaking in which works for me. I still use
vandorens but only for my effer as I have yet to find another brand here in atlanta for it. As others have stated try them and see if they work for you
it took me months of reed fishing to finally settle on my Luries, and they work well for me.
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2011-07-27 13:45
I agree with David. If the Rico Reserves didn't work for you, try a softer one.
The first ones I used were 3 1/2s. They didn't work at all for me, but I've had great luck with 3s. Did you try both the regular Reserves and the Classics? They have some slight differences, and one may work better for you than the other.
Karl mentions a distributorship problem many years ago. I remember this well, and Vandorens were very hard to obtain at the time. I also used Luries then with good results.
For some mouthpieces, Luries might work very well. I occasionally use them and get a nice sound, but I get slightly better results with the Reserves. I've also noticed that Rico subjects the Reserves to a much higher level of quality control, but that's one reason why the Luries are cheaper.
If you use Luries, don't spend the extra money on the premiums. There is very little difference between the two types, and I think the regulars play just as well as (or possibly better than) the premiums.
Post Edited (2011-07-27 16:07)
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2011-07-27 14:20
Back in the late '80s I remember this one box of Mitchell Lurie's.....ohhhhhh yeah....that was one sweet reed.
Mitch wuz bringin' the thunder cane that one time. Bustin' out the vibes. Good reed.
Now I use Legeres.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: William
Date: 2011-07-27 15:15
It is important--even if, perhaps, unnecessary for most of us--to point out that reed strength numbers are not consistant between different brands of reed. A V12 3.5 may not be the same strength as a Rico Reserve 3.5. So the illusion of easier articulation or better tone quality due to switching brands of reed with the same strength number may be more due to the fact that the "new" reed, while marked "the same", may actually be softer. Soft reeds WILL play "right out of the box" and articulate easier than hard reeds, but generally will not produce the depth of sound in all registers that is desirable for most serious playing. However, if your embouchure is in top shape--unlimited endurance--you may get by with softer reeds because you don't need to use as much "bite", but have the muscle to rely more on lip support--which lets the reed resonate better. In any case, reed strengths are not uniform between reed brands--you really have to rely on, "if it looks like a duck and plays like a duck, then it IS a duck"--or strength of reed.
BTW, when I was still playing cane, I tried the Michelle Luries because a good friend was using them. However, in spite of initial success, they didn't seem to last that long for me and I returned to my favs, the V12's. However, if they allow you to play musically with good tone quality, I would say use them and forget what most of us recommend. Just don't get confused by the inconsistant reed strenght from reed "X to Z" issue.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-07-27 15:36
I enjoyed playing on Mitchell Luries, but they suddenly took a huge quality crash, and I gave up on them.
Bob Phillips
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2011-07-27 18:04
clarinetguy wrote:
> If you use Luries, don't spend the extra money on the premiums.
> There is very little difference between the two types, and I
> think the regulars play just as well as (or possibly better
> than) the premiums.
>
As I remember, the main difference between regular Luries and the Premiums was that the premiums were "double-cut" like Vandorens - the bark is stripped off straight across before the taper is cut into the vamp. The Lurie regulars are "single-cut," like Rico Reverves, so the bark has a rounded or ovoid edge where the cutter first bites into it.
Karl
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2011-07-28 04:48
Of Rico's low-priced offerings--Rico orange box, Rico Royal, La Voz, and Mitchell Lurie--I find that the Luries tend to use better cane than the other three and most of them play well straight out of the box.
For me, the big 'gotcha' with Lurie reeds is that, when played hard, they waterlog sooner than Vandorens.
I think Rico's La Voz reeds come closer to approaching the V-12's tone quality than do the Mitchell Luries--I think the original poster would do well to try both; the La Voz and Lurie reeds cost about the same.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2011-07-28 05:14
As some of you fellow players know I was in charge of the ML reeds and the designer of the grand concert reeds, not the reserve reeds. I had left the company before these reeds were made.
What makes the Lurie reeds so consistant is being cut twice and the cane was picked out mostly by me Franch cane only. This is why the reeds are a bit shorter than any of the other brands of Rico reeds; being cut twice.
In 1983 I re-designed Mitchell's reeds and added more wood to the reed. Mitchell was very pleased, he actually wrote to the owners of Rico saying these reeds were finally made correctly, The best reeds he has ever played, the way he always wanted. Too bad I didn't get a raise.
Hey Rico - give me a raise!!!
The reeds are kind of cool, because cutting them twice added consistancy and the cane had to be French cane only.
The Lurie reeds were also cut using a 2 diamond setup. All of the other machines used 1 diamond cutter. I don't think anyone knows about using 2 diamonds to cut each of his reeds. I was the only person that would set up the 2 diamonds for many years. It was really hard to balance the diamonds.
opps, Sorry Rico for letting this secret about the 2 diamonds out. I can't believe I did this!
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2011-08-07 01:13)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2011-07-28 13:19
Bob Bernardo wrote:
> What makes the Lurie reeds so consistant is being cut twice and
> the cane was picked out mostly by me Franch cane only. This is
> why the reeds are a bit shorter than any of the other brands of
> Rico reeds; being cut twice.
>
Bob,
Is this different from cutting the bark off for the vamp (leaving a straight cut across the shoulder) before cutting the taper? Or is cutting twice this a different process?
When the bark is removed straight across (is this called "French cut"?) it seems to free the response, or so it seems when I manually cut the bark to a straight line on reeds that aren't manufactured this way. Do I remember correctly that the ML Premiums were straight cut and the ML regulars were not? What goes into deciding whether or not to cut the bark straight?
Did you design the Premiums?
Karl
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2011-07-28 14:15
I've used Vandoren and ML reeds since the 1980s.
back then the MLs were a good alternative.
Nowadays I find the MLs are quick out of the box, though I have to use 1/2 strength higher for a true comparison to the VDs, but then I find the ML's get waterlogged quite quickly and with that the tone goes south with it.
If you have alot of rests in a piece the ML is fine, but if you are constantly playing I find the modern MLs just get waterlogged too quickly.
I use/used ML regular and premiums but not often nowadays.
on Vandoren I use 3-1/2 or 4s, and sometimes 3s for a quick play like the MLs
==========
Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2011-07-29 05:30
The Franch cut is an extra process which is sanded by one of the sanding machines. I personally hate this design because the sander often takes off too much rails. To answer your question this process of making the French cut is after the reeds have been double cut. It is the last process before being boxed.
The sad part of the French sanding machine is the operator has no knowledge of music. Most of the time too much bark has been removed off of the rails. The sides of the reeds. Take a look sometime. There is usually a dip on the rails where the bark and the file mark is. This drove me nuts, because this effects the performance and the longevity. In a sense Rico is cutting the guts out of the reeds, so hitting some of the really high notes, way above c, plus c are dead after a few days of playing. There is no difference with the grand concert filed reeds. The same system is used. Get the non French reeds and take the bark off yourself using a reed knife.
Karl, you are correct, the premium reeds have the French cut and the regular ML reeds do not. I'm not sure when removing the bark became known as French Cut. I know it was around way back in the '70's when Morre reeds were being made. They used the term French cut. Maybe some of the long timers know the answer. If Eddie Palanker pops in he may be able to add some info.
Steveskler wrote "I find the ML's get waterlogged quite quickly"
This is a different topic that I fought for years at Rico. The cane is cut too early. Rico uses 1 to 2 year old cane. It's really not Rico's fault because there is a huge cane shortage. A good piece of cane should grow for 3 to 4 years, allowing the fibers to get much harder. It's sort of like lifting weights. At first the person is pretty weak, and after 4 years they have muscles everywhere! The cane grows to about 13 feet or so the FIRST year. After the first season the cane won't grow any higher. The cane simpy gets wider and harder.
Here's another interesting topic. Vandoren and Rico sometimes buy cane from each other, because of cane shortages. Rico and Bernard Vandoren have a decent relationship. I wouldn't call it a love affair, but they do try to help each other.
As far as French cuts go La Voz and the Rico Royal come off the same machines and the only difference is the french cut.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2011-08-07 01:39)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-07-29 16:01
Although I haven't used them myself I've had some experience with them with students years ago. Unless they've improved them a whole lot I did not recommend them to my students because they would get soft and bright far to quickly. They would sound good on day one and then sound soft and thin. Maybe they were good for someone that didn't care about getting a rich warm sound and just wanted something that played easy but I never recommended them. ESP
eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2011-07-30 21:04
I happened to have a few old Rico Grand Concert Selects around (the regular ones). I selected one along with a Mitchell Lurie, and measured the thickness of each at different points of the reed with my PerfectaReed. The two reeds are almost identical. The only major difference that I saw is that the Lurie is a little shorter, although the widths of the two reeds are identical. This made me wonder: Is there any other major difference between regular Grand Concert Selects and Mitchell Luries?
Several people commented about the Luries being great at first, but "losing it" quickly. I wonder if Fred Hemke sax reeds have the same issue that Bob mentioned (young cane that is cut too quickly). I've used Hemkes and they give me a great sound on my sax. I break them in slowly, but most of them just don't seem to last very long.
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2011-07-30 22:47
I used to put the reeds up to a light to see whether they had thin "veins" or thick "veins". I haven't done this in years but I recall I liked the reeds with the much more compact thin veins per say. The thicker veins I believed soaked up water too much ... but i've never really tested this.
==========
Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2011-08-03 01:36
I was also in charge of the Hemke soprano reeds. The cut of the reeds were very different. They have a lot of wood in the spine of the reeds and a very thin tip of .005" The rails were/are thin at the tip and pretty thick in the back of the reeds, compared to La voz. I was very pleased with the Hemky soprano sax reeds, but I felt the tenor and alto reeds didn't work as well, again because of the age of the cane.
At this point I can't go into great detail about the quality of reeds and where the cane came from, and how to make great reeds. I'd have to write a book.
I have to add that Vandoren reeds are aged for 4 to 5 years compared to 1 or 2 years with Rico. This is why Rico reeds often soak up a lot of water.
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2011-08-04 04:22
Regarding the aging of the cane, does the aging only improve the cane prior to the reeds being cut, or will finished reeds also improve with age?
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2011-08-07 00:44
A few people emailed me so I'm posting their emails. There were very good questions asked. 1,2,3,4 were questions people asked. Enjoy, regardless if you agree or disagree!
1) "Finished reeds will not improve with age."
(2) "They are a plant - and will
decline with old age."
(3) "Very old reeds (unplayed) will not play as well as new reeds that are
fresh."
(4) "Regarding the aging of the cane, does the aging only improve the cane prior
to the reeds being cut, or will finished reeds also improve with age?"
As I said in prior statements I can write a book about this topic. Once I'm done with the final part of my lawsuit against Rico I will open my website and there will be tons of information, so feel free in writing emails as I will save these questions and use them for the website so others may try differet approaches different way of treating reeds.
Number 1 -You are correct about finished cane can't improve with age. So if you have a stinky reed, or stinky tubes, the final cut of the reeds in question will not get any better with age and remain stinky. However, if the cane is good and the finished vamp cut; finished reed, is very good, along with the cane tubes being 4 + years old and the cane has rested for a year, the finished reed will still play fantastic, perhaps even better because it's aged for many years. I have reeds going back to the 1940's and they play very well.
Number 2- Actually there are about 250 plus varieties of cane, which is listed under bammboo. The canes name is arundo donax. I am not certain, but I believe it's name is from the Spanish origin, but due to time I have to keep to the subject. It's technically a weed, not a plant, which won't decline with age; again if the cane is of quality stock. It actually gets better with age if you treat it correctly. When a plant dies it's dead. Cane has roots all over the place so it will regrow. These roots are called rhyzones. I think thats a pretty cool name!
Number 3- I don't agree with your statement. As already said cane can get better with age. I repeat - I have cane from the mid 1940's which I've saved for future, such as concerts, solo work, and recordings at some studios local in the LA area. Added to this I have some reeds, never been opened from the Morre' area, both French and German cuts. If I ever get the chance to play a concerto again with a symphony I will be using the Morre' reeds. I hope this has put a different perspective on cane.
Number 4 - Yes the key here is the cane has already been treated during several applications, including very hot water with sodium bicarbonate, them cut into reeds! So to make a long story short throw out the soft, miss cut reeds if the cane is bad. When you go and buy some reeds, if most of them play great, last a long time, buy several boxes of them, regardless if it's a Rico product or a Vandoren. Chances are this cane came from the same batch. If the cane has aged for several years it may have gone up about a half strength stronger. I don't use Rico products anymore, but I have enough reeds to last the rest of my life. This includes the Eb clarinet and all of the sax product minus the bari.
The second part of your question is a pretty simple answer. I soak the reeds in distilled water for 5 minutes. I usually have to make a few adjustments during the 4 to 6 month life.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2011-08-07 01:35)
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Author: The Break
Date: 2011-08-07 01:17
I, personally, haven't tried Mitchell Lurie Reeds. I was always taught to use Vandoren. I started off with the regular Vandoren Blue box's which were okay. A tad too hard. But my clarinet teacher recommended V12's. Her personal favorite, and they seemed to be quite the popular choice. These are on the medium side of hardness. And are quite comfortable. The reed choice can also be different on the type of mouth piece, because the V12's tip is more wide and less arc shaped than.. say the 56 Rue Lepics - which i also enjoy. The Rue Lepics are on the softer side. They have a beautiful sound, ease of articulation, and are overall free blowing. The v12 are more.. "American" reeds, while the RL's are "traditional french."
I recommend trying RL's. And use that howarth Reed Comparison chart. Definitely helpful for "converting."
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2011-08-07 01:24
Bob - the sound gets bright.
It comes from LIVE plants - this is what I was told on the Rico Tour by Carlos. He's put in equal sweat equity to you, yes?
So it's just a difference of an opinion that may or may not be able to be proven.
Underaged cane possibly can improve (if...), but that's my take.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2011-08-07 02:10
David - Rico Tour by Carlos
HeHeHe -Carlos doesn't play any instruments. He's pretty much someone that thinks he knows everything. He has never been to the cane fields as far as I know. There's a bunch of rattle snakes. Be careful what they tell you there, Carlos is clueless regarding reeds. Probably would put the reed on backwards. He's actually a nice man, tries hard, but in this area of music he's illiterate, sorry to say. Carlos is pretty much a pencil pusher. If you ever go there again leave my name out of the conversations- ask for a tour with Brain Terrall. Another very nice guy and he plays the reeds! I just happened to think -
Maybe they told you this as a lie -to avoid giving out secrets.
Green cane is fun on Saint Patricks day.
I'm glad you got to go on a tour. They don't often do this and when they do they move you around somewhat fast so you can't get any information. If it were my company no one would be invited because of mini cameras and such.
Feel free in emailing me and put your internet address if you wish for me to respond.
The cane, not plants, are cut. and die. Then the root regrows. How can they be alive? You as a player, you would receive green cane!
I won't post anymore until the lawsuit is over. Then you will get a load of "True" information.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2011-08-07 02:41)
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