 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: CuriousClarinet
Date: 2011-06-26 20:24
So, I'm a senior in high school and recently our school's marching band started back up for the summer. Since I'm the only senior and most experienced clarinet player, I'm (unfortunately) the 'section leader'. This year, the section's counting is up to par, and they can play all of their music to one extent or another. However, I can't get them to stay in tune for more than a few seconds, and all of us have a distinctly different tone. It sounds better when they don't play at all! Two of the new freshmen play on 2 and 2.5 strength reeds...which I'm thinking may contribute to the problem. No one's instruments aren't really up to much, but it's not like I can go tell them to go buy expensive clarinets. Two other people are use to bass clarinet and are having a hard time covering the toneholes all the way, so that's a factor. Any suggestions? Help? I don't know how to tell them to go about fixing the issue.
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2011-06-26 20:38
Let's see. This is just my very crude personal findings.
Strength of the reed in itself doesn't really impact the intonation of the lower registers nearly so much as at altissimo or upper clarion. Embouchure and air support should take care of chalumeau and clarion. Generally, novice like myself tend to pitch lower and the mouthpieces that would come stock with student horns will 'alleviate' that by being a tad sharper, from my experience. We novice are much more prone to undertone and that ruins the ideal 'clarinet sound', especially when one is crossing breaks.
First thing to really target is the matter of how the mouthpiece+reed I think. Everything else is secondary.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-06-26 21:16
Use.your.ears. Use.your.ears.
Even with an underdevelopped embouchure, an instrument from a different solar system, a reed from the scrap bin, even then you must listen to your co-players. Intonation is like watches - they need to be adjusted in certain intervals. And everyone should, while playing, listen to the others to determine if the own pitch, colour, whatever matches the section.
For an experiment, let one play a (eg) clarion C. Then let the next one play the same note. Let the third player chime in ONLY when the tone of the two other players is in perfect unison. Same with the fourth... etc player.
Next, do the same with quarter notes. One starts in whatever tempo he or she likes, then the others, one after the other, chime in.
It's not so much about playing, it's about listening.
--
Ben
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Author: CuriousClarinet
Date: 2011-06-26 22:57
Right. Tictactux, that's what we've been doing but it doesn't seem to make much of a difference. I can listen to them and change my sound to match one of them, but then everyone else still doesn't match. Or we can take 20 minutes and get everyone to sound the same, then I ask them to stop and play the note together one final time, and we're back to square one. What should they being doing to adjust? What make one player's tone different then the other?
I'm thinking that the mouthpiece and reed combo might have something to do with it, because the lower register sounds fine, anything across the break is iffy, and don't ask about playing anything higher then an F.
Could it also have something to do with experience? Some of them haven't played clarinet much over two years. Is learning to play with good tone somthing that I should just ignore until they have played longer? That doesn't really solve the fact that the sound like car horns... however. I mean, (I don't want to sound egotistical or anything) but my tone is okay, as far as I know. There are two other people who match me to the point that it sounds okay, but what should I do with the others? Being section leader, the band director is constantly yelling at me for my section sounding bad, is ignoring her the only thing that will fix this? Thanks. =p
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-06-26 23:12
CuriousClarinet wrote:
> Right. Tictactux, that's what we've been doing but it doesn't
> seem to make much of a difference. I can listen to them and
> change my sound to match one of them, but then everyone else
> still doesn't match. Or we can take 20 minutes and get everyone
> to sound the same, then I ask them to stop and play the note
> together one final time, and we're back to square one. What
> should they being doing to adjust? What make one player's tone
> different then the other?
It's a process. You can't just click your fingers and it works. It must be ingrained into everyone's head. It can take weeks, months, maybe years or an eternity. It should be part of your warm-up routine. Listen. Listen to other's sound, pitch, tempo. Listen to other sections' cues. Listen to the orchestra's voice.
It requires constant attention from everyone. Just putting on a different reed, or mouthpiece doesn't change the mindset.
Keep on working on it. And do keep on telling the players how important this is, and how much good it will do to everyone's playing experience. An orchestra is an organism, not just a bunch of tootling individualists.
Hey, you'll do it. Just give it the appropriate amount of time.
--
Ben
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-06-26 23:19
Ummm...
I hate to douse your enthusiasm for the responsibility of having become section leader, but with all due respect, beyond playing the right notes at the right time, how these younger students play isn't (or shouldn't be) part of that responsibility. If there's any technical instruction to be delivered, it should be the band director's job, not another student's. I know your intentions are good, and the goal for everyone from the director to the newest student is (or should be) to make band the best possible learning experience for everyone. But experimenting with things like reeds, mouthpieces, instruments and playing technique should be well beyond a section leader's job.
The students should, if possible, be trying to get at least a few lessons from an experienced teacher. Whether their reeds are too soft depends on a number of factors, as has already been pointed out. You can't get them to stay in tune at all - they need to keep themselves in tune. All you can do is tell them when they're out of tune. There's not much you can do about someone's not being able to cover the holes - at the least they need more practice and in the best case they need a teacher listening to them and watching what they're doing in a less distracting, more concentrated setting than a marching band sectional.
Karl
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-06-27 00:12
CuriousClarinet wrote:
> Being section leader, the band director is constantly
> yelling at me for my section sounding bad, is ignoring her the
> only thing that will fix this? Thanks. =p
If this is what's happening, your band director needs an attitude adjustment. You can't play their instruments for them, and if she (who is supposedly trained and experienced in doing this) doesn't know how to help them improve their playing, it's hard to understand how she expects you to do better.
Karl
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Author: CuriousClarinet
Date: 2011-06-27 00:14
Takes lots of time. Learning process. I'll remember that. =p
And of course, kdk, I realize that it isn't really my responsiblity to be their teacher. However, our director isn't much of a help. In fact, she is rather useless. Outside the gossip she spreads and the paperwork filed, she has no idea what is going on in her own program. If the band is ever going to get anything done, it seems to be the section leader's, field commander's, or drum major's job.
It would also be nice if the other clarinet players could some how get some private instruction from somebody who actually knows what they're doing, but most everybody in our school is on 'fee waver'. Bottom line, they're doing good to be able to afford a 2 dollar reed, let alone private lessons. I'm just trying to make my section play to their potential, but perhaps I should just back off and let them stay out of tune, seeing as they can't even hear the difference between that and in tune.
Thanks for all of the suggestions! There were a bunch I'll try to incorporate into sectionals, and I'll attempt to be less teacher-like. =)
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2011-06-27 00:37
Let me be frank. I am very impressed at your keen observations of your bandmates. This kind of critical analysis over what is happening is invaluable and will serve you well into the future. Your description seem to indicate that the aspirations of your marching band director doesn't seem to align well to that of your's, and it is unfortunate.
Ben is right. It is ultimately careful listening and tuning that will make a section sound as one. This is something that should be ingrained into the members of the section. However, momentary match of pitch is not sustainable if there is no mental fortitude amongst the band members to strive for such standards.
I definitely do not think that you have the responsibility to educate your bandmates, nor the need to influence your band director, on one's mentality.
That concludes the 2 cents from this lay person.
Post Edited (2011-06-27 00:37)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-06-27 01:21
CuriousClarinet wrote:
> ...However, our director isn't
> much of a help. In fact, she is rather useless. Outside the
> gossip she spreads and the paperwork filed, she has no idea
> what is going on in her own program. If the band is ever going
> to get anything done, it seems to be the section leader's,
> field commander's, or drum major's job.
>
I actually sympathize with you a great deal. As a school instrumental music teacher and department administrator for 30 years, I've seen too many band (and orchestra) directors who fit your description of your band teacher. To the extent that your section mates are receptive to any input you give, you may be able to make some headway in making them aware of the problems and perhaps motivating them to want to do what they can to solve them. But, in my personal opinion, it's important for you to keep focused at all times on the idea that the other students are not your subordinates or your students, and, above all, you should absolutely avoid putting yourself in an adversarial position with them in order to improve the band at any cost.
> ...I'm just
> trying to make my section play to their potential, but perhaps
> I should just back off and let them stay out of tune, seeing as
> they can't even hear the difference between that and in tune.
Well, no, you needn't "let them stay out of tune" without at least calling it to their attention. What you aren't really in a position to do is "make" them play *in tune.* But I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that none of them can hear the difference based on a span of a rehearsal or two. It *does* take a long time to build an ear (as well as to build confidence - they're all underclassmen to you), and the first step in building an ear or any other discriminatory skill is to become aware of its usefulness. You can certainly point out intonation problems - maybe at first only the really glaring ones - and encourage them to listen. Someone may even start to ask questions about what to do (which you can answer to the best of your own ability). What you can't do is be authoritarian or prescriptive in the way a paid teacher can, but in general really shouldn't, pull off.
Given your situation, you may (unfortunately) need to take on some of the teacher's role. Just be sure to keep your attitude toward all of it positive, supportive and friendly. The goal isn't for every minute to be unmitigated fun, but it is supposed to be enjoyable for you and everybody else in the band. Too much continual harping on what's wrong, being unable ever to relax and accept others' best as being good, tends to interfere with that for everyone.
Good luck with the coming band season.
Karl
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Author: Paul Miller
Date: 2011-06-27 01:59
I also was cursed with an incompetent high school band director. It made life hell for the band...
So... pitch. It's one of those never ending battles, so without getting too much into the weeds about reeds and mouthpieces and stuff, you should download a tone generator for your computer and have it create a set of drones for you. Five minutes each, starting with low (concert) D and going up chromatically to the C above the staff. Then make a CD of this and have the section play long tones against the drone... and you'll probably have to spend some time with students individually as well. The idea is that they'll get used to placing those notes somewhere close to "in tune" against the tuner, which is a good starting point. It'll take a bit of time.
As for reeds, your section players should be playing on fairly fresh ones. Dead reeds will kill the tone immediately, which will result in players biting down to make the reed speak, which will send the pitch through the roof.
As for your director, is there an assistant director you can talk to about this? Or someone in charge of the overall music department? I realize that the chain of command is pretty sketchy in the setting of high school band, but maybe you need someone to advocate for you in this - she shouldn't be yelling at you because your section isn't in tune; it's her responsibility, not yours.
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Author: Paul Miller
Date: 2011-06-27 02:04
Oh, and while we're at it, don't forget that YOU are the one taking the initiative and showing leadership by doing what you can to improve matters in your section.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-06-27 03:06
This system works if given proper attention:
First chair of each of the sections (1st, 2nd, 3rd) is in charge of the pitch. Ideally, these will be your 3 best players. First finds the pitch from somewhere in the ensemble. Second chair first, his ONLY job is to match the pitch of the first chair first, right or wrong. If he can hear himself play, he is out of tune or too loud. This will necessarily lead to him playing a bit softer than the person a chair above him. Third chair first does the same, listening to second chair first, and down the line.
It can be counterintuitive to try to NOT hear yourself clearly, but, when playing the same note with like instruments, this is your indication that you are in tune.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: William
Date: 2011-06-27 16:08
I was middle school band director for 34 hrs and my bands starter ever class (rehearsal) playing scales--diatonic & thirds. Along with correct notes and precision, listening & balance were always stressed, the goal being an "in tune" ensemble with the "best possible sounds" imaginal. Listening for intonation and tone quality was the player's responsibility--as per my relentless encouragement. After this "warm up" we officially tuned. I've found too many director who tune first and then play scales or other warm ups. To my way of thinking, this is unproductive in teaching listening skills and encouraging students to think for themselves. You might suggest this proceedure for your school. Good luck and good listening--always.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2011-06-27 19:58
One thing I would suggest you do, which I think will at least help keep the band director off your back, is to ask the director for some advice or instruction as to what things you can or should do to get the section into tune.
This may or may not help you actually achieve this goal--after all, your director may be at a loss for effective solutions herself--but it will almost certainly improve your relationship with the director. If she does what she suggests, but it doesn't work, at least she'll know you're trying, and she can't fault you too much for following her (possibly bad) advice.
Moreover, your relationship with her will become more team-like and less adversarial. People behave very differently in one-on-one settings than in group settings, especially when working toward a common goal. Your director may feel that she is somewhat absolved of responsibility in the eyes of the band when blaming you for bad intonation in group rehearsal, but she will likely not feel that way when talking with you privately, especially if you approach her, because the psychological incentives are different. In speaking to you in private, she risks discouraging you from making an effort if she points a finger at you, so she's likely to act quite differently.
Seeking her advice will also help the two of you clearly delineate where your respective responsibilities lie. You'll know what she expects of you, and vice versa.
Like I said, this may not actually solve the musical problem, but it should help with the interpersonal one.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-06-27 20:00
> I was middle school band director for 34 hrs
That's a rather short career... ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
--
Ben
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Author: CuriousClarinet
Date: 2011-06-27 21:38
Whoa, thanks for all of the amazing advice. I wasn’t really expecting that many posts when I logged back on…
-"First chair of each of the sections (1st, 2nd, 3rd) is in charge of the pitch. Ideally, these will be your 3 best players."
Although I have heard this before, it reminds me of the time when I was a freshman and my former section leader wanted to arrange the parts so the most three most experienced players were split up as you suggested. However, my band director had her usual fit and distributed the parts as she usually does, just down the line. And every year she wonders why she can't hear the 3rd and 2nd parts... :o
Also, I would go to an assistant director, except there is none. My high school is kind of small, and the music program is no acception. The band director is also the head of the music department at my high school. My mom once went to the principal about a few things she was doing... didn't really solve any problems. At least she doesn't do freshman initiation anymore.
Asking my band director is a good idea, though. For one reason or another, the director has always picked on me and my older sister... It must be a family thing. Perhaps that would help solve some issues... although I swear I've never done anything to deserve being her scapegoat.
Anyways, back to the original topic. :p I did ask my section to buy new reeds, they did and they're breaking them in... I guess I'll see if it makes any difference in a few days. I want to find some time to try some of the suggested warm-ups, but we haven't had any time as a section really, besides running laps around the track, that is. It sounds like it may be time to schedule a sectional.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-06-28 01:41
Deck is stacked against you, it would seem. Sectionals would go a long way if you use them well.
Is your section at least distributed in proper proportions? (more or as many seconds as firsts, more or as many thirds as seconds)
Even if you can't have your 3 top players distributed on 1st, 2nd, 3rd, you can still make a point in sectionals that those are the 3 most critical players, and distribute the roles accordingly. Crucial will be getting the first chair 3rd to play loud enough. Spend time on that in sectionals... it's very rare to hear that chair play TOO loud, but too soft is extremely common (I spent a couple years on first chair third in a quite good college group, and as a generally loud player, the conductor was still frequently asking for more). The way the parts are distributed, it usually takes more effort for a third to play at the same volume as a first because the notes in the 3rd part generally don't project well. Plus, you tend to be more geographically buried.
I'd incorporate some play-low-notes-loudly-and-in-tune time for the whole section in each sectional. Don't let anyone slip through the cracks, encourage each player to be comfortable with belting notes out without shame. Then you can dial it back as necessary in context.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-06-28 02:03
BTW, I may have missed it in another post, but how many players are in your clarinet section?
Karl
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2011-06-28 09:20
Interesting...
The only way to play in tune is to listen and the only way to listen is to play quieter, which might not be an option in a marching band. Sectional rehearsal might be the only way. Reed strength is irrelevant so long as they're not worn out.
I suggest you tune one at a time after warming up. Play the note together only as a double-check at the end.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2011-06-28 13:32
As Bassie suggested...."one at a time after warming up" Tune open G....pull barrel if necessary...then tune G above staff...pull middle joint if necessary...
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-06-28 13:52
Arnoldstang wrote:
> As Bassie suggested...."one at a time after warming up"
> Tune open G....pull barrel if necessary...then tune G above
> staff...pull middle joint if necessary...
>
I've never been comfortable with using these tuning notes instead of the long B or C. Throat G is so malleable. The chance of a player's bending it one way or the other to match a standard seems much greater than with the long notes, which are much less flexible. And neither G4 nor G5 can be relied on especially to be in tune with even most of the rest of the instrument. Pull the barrel a little and G4 goes down more than most anything using the right hand (with or without the register key). G5 is on many (perhaps most) clarinets a fairly unstable note because, I think, of its position relative to the register vent.
C5 by contrast is as stable a note as you can get on a clarinet and will respond to tuning in a way that's less local to its particular position on the instrument.
Tuning on any given note is never a guarantee that anything but that note will be in tune, and then only for a few minutes. Since you mentioned it, I'm interested to know what your rationale is for choosing those two pitches (G4 and G5) to tune the section. No confrontation intended - I've heard of this before and have never had the opportunity to ask the reasons.
Karl
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Author: Luuk ★2017
Date: 2011-06-28 14:15
Tuning and sound issues have largely gone away in our band since our (new) director focused on free blowing while keeping the sound in mind.
We changed directors three years ago. At that time, development of the orchestra was a bit stuck after 30 years of the old maestro (with all respect).
The new director had us play with extreme exaggeration of the written dynamics. At least, that's how we experienced it. He said that was necessary for getting everything in tune, and to get a resonant sound from the orchestra. This approach worked very well.
Of course he had to point out some individual sound quality issues related to biting and reeds being too soft or too hard. But working on support helped us greatly.
Air support is the key. My personal list of relevant influences on tuning and tone:
1 - air support
2 - embouchure (do not bite!)
3 - reed/mouthpiece (should play comfortable at all dynamics without being shrill/edgy or fuzzy)
4 - rest of clarinet (at least should not be leaking).
Other ideas:
- Spend an afternoon with the section by explaining how to balance a reed.
- Give them the experience of playing with full resonance by having them try your set up.
- Play in small groups (simple trio's, quartets) and build the section by putting the groups together. Individual problems can be more easily pinpointed in small groups, and the effect of adjustments is immediately evident.
Regards,
Luuk
Philips Symphonic Band
The Netherlands
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2011-06-28 17:12
Karl,
I've not heard of using G4 and G5 as tuning notes for the clarinet before but I have heard of using F4 and F5, the rationale being that F4 is a stable note whose tuning is affected by pulling out or pushing in the barrel but not the lower joint and F5 is also a stable note whose tuning should be affected more by pulling out or pushing in the lower joint than by adjusting the barrel. Thus one adjusts the barrel first, which has its greatest effect on upper joint notes but also some effect on lower joint notes, then fine tunes the lower joint notes by adjusting that joint. I don't understand how adjusting the lower joint will have much effect on G5. Taking the bottom joint and bell off entirely doesn't have much effect on that note.
The problem with using long C or B on the clarinet is that adjusting the barrel to bring a note at the bottom of the tube in line will have a greater impact on the notes above it. And since long B and C have a tendency to be a little flat relative to the rest of the clarinet in the first place, bringing them in tune may make the rest of the instrument sharp (admittedly making it easier to "compete" with the flutes and trumpets ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif) ). Orchestras traditionally tune to concert A primarily because of the strings. I wonder if bands don't traditionally tune to concert Bb because it is a good note for the brass. Maybe different tuning notes are more appropriate for different instruments -- but using the ideal note for each instrument would make the tuning process unwieldy.
Of course, whatever, one uses, the result is only one or two notes in tune at best. The real tuning is a dynamic effort performed on-the-fly during performance.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-06-28 17:43
Jack Kissinger wrote:
> Karl,
>
> but I have heard of using F4 and F5, the
> rationale being that F4 is a stable note whose tuning is
> affected by pulling out or pushing in the barrel but not the
> lower joint and F5 is also a stable note whose tuning should be
> affected more by pulling out or pushing in the lower joint than
> by adjusting the barrel.
I've never thought of F4 as being reliably in tune with the rest (or even most) of the instrument. One of the other threads currently under discussion is based on the poster's problem with flat throat notes and, in particular, a flat F4.
I do understand that F5 would be a reliable representative of the general pitch of the right hand notes. But its distant acoustical relationship to the A or B-flat normally used for the rest of an orchestra or band makes me wonder how accurately you could tune to it in a mixed ensemble unless everyone has a personal electronic tuner with a contact microphone (to your point about an unwieldy tuning process if every instrument tunes to its best note).
>
> The problem with using long C or B on the clarinet is that
> adjusting the barrel to bring a note at the bottom of the tube
> in line will have a greater impact on the notes above it. And
> since long B and C have a tendency to be a little flat relative
> to the rest of the clarinet in the first place, bringing them
> in tune may make the rest of the instrument sharp...
Yes, although that can be consciously adjusted for, either mechanically or by the player as he plays, but I'm not sure any resulting deviation is any worse than what could come from using an out-of-tune throat tone for tuning. And the instrument is, at least nominally, built on a scale that is fingered as a C scale (no chromatics), so in theory at least, a C should be closer to a majority of the other fingerings than anything else on the clarinet.
> ...Orchestras traditionally tune to concert A
> primarily because of the strings. I wonder if bands don't
> traditionally tune to concert Bb because it is a good note for
> the brass. Maybe different tuning notes are more appropriate
> for different instruments -- but using the ideal note for each
> instrument would make the tuning process unwieldy.
>
It's even hard for me to trust that a B-flat played for the winds and brass is really in tune with the A for the strings and at some level I suspect that there's an unconscious amount of aural confusion going on for some players who take whichever pitch is played second. I think the only way to accomplish this would be for everyone to tune electronically, a process that may be increasingly feasible as tuners become more compact and sensitive.
> Of course, whatever, one uses, the result is only one or two
> notes in tune at best. The real tuning is a dynamic effort
> performed on-the-fly during performance.
>
Amen!
Karl
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2011-06-29 05:58
re throat g being bendible. If it's flat it's flat....you can't bend it up.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2011-06-29 07:57
>> throat g ... you can't bend it up
But even the least experienced player can bend it down. I'm not a fan of tuning to throat notes.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2011-06-29 12:44
>>re throat g being bendible. If it's flat it's flat....you can't bend it up.
>>
Huh? Bend the open G sharper by biting and giving it "cold air" (closing the inside of the mouth more than normal, as if saying whoooooo instead of taaah).
I had to bend open G up every time I used it on my 1957 Conn Director, which has other intonation problems including very wide 12ths. That Conn was my only clarinet and I practiced it or played it in school bands and orchestras nearly every day from 1957-1966. I got so accustomed to automatically compensating for its bad intonation that to this day, I have to consciously remind myself that I'm not playing that Conn any more, or else I'll bend a good Buffet every which way and mess it all up.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2011-06-30 01:50
After Karl's response to my previous post, I did a little digging to see what I could find about general clarinet tuning characteristics and strategies. I clearly should have done that before I posted. Keep in mind that different makes and models have different designs that will affect their tuning characteristics. Also, individual differences within a given model will cause anomalies. Choice of barrel and mouthpiece and reed, not to mention the player, can also can make a difference. In other words, take what I am about to say with a grain of salt.
I found a number of summaries of clarinet tuning tendencies. In some cases, the author was anonymous. In others, the author had University credentials. I only looked at the first four I came to so what I found may not actually be representative of what's out there. With all these caveats in mind, where consensus is defined as agreement among at least three authors, these are the notes on which I found consensus:
Usually Flat: E3, F3, E4
Usually Sharp: A3, D4, G4, A4, G5, A5, B5, C6
Usually in tune: C4, B4, C5, E5, F5
I did not include notes that are flatted or sharped because they generally do not serve as tuning notes. There was no general agreement on the other notes that are not listed above. In fact, there was often considerable disagreement.
I am embarrassed to say that I found two serious errors in my previous post when I went digging. First of all, as I was writing that I had heard of using F4 and F5 as tuning notes, rather than G4 and G5, I had a gnawing feeling that the correct notes were actually G4 and F5. However, I could not remember or find where I had seen the recommendation and I rejected G4 because I thought it might be more unstable than F. In fact, as others have pointed out, it is a stable note. However, if I am to believe the authors I found, it may have a tendency to be sharp. On the other hand, while it was not identified as consistently sharp or flat, F4 was also not consistently identified as in tune. I did, however, find the original recommendation I was looking for. Tom Ridenour makes it on his website. He specifically recommends G4 and G5.
I also found a couple of other recommendations for G4 and G5. In my original post, I said that G5 didn't make sense to me because it was above the middle tenon and pulling that out should have no effect on it's tuning. That was, of course incorrect. The highest open tone hole for G5 is the one under the top pad on the lower joint. Doh! Pulling out the lower joint will, in fact, tune G5. I'm surprised nobody busted me on that one. Just for grins, I checked the effect on both F5 and G5 of pulling out the middle tenon 1mm, 2mm and 3 mm. The impact on the clarinet I was using (Yamaha CS) was virtually identical and not very pronounced. In both cases, I went from a few cents sharp with the joint fully in to a few cents flat with the joint out 3mm. YMMV but, for me, either would work.
To avoid confusion and chaos, and recognizing that tuning one note is largely ceremonial where the clarinets are involved, I agree with Karl that tuning for band or orchestra should follow a single note. The good news is that both B4 (orchestra) and C5 (band) are apparently "good" notes on most clarinets. When tuning with a piano for a recital, however, and perhaps for chamber music performances, I think Tom Ridenour's approach makes good sense.
Getting back to the original issue in this thread, in my searches, I came across a couple of sites that recommended clarinet sections create individual tuning charts for each member so they can see their tendencies relative to other section members. CC, if you think you can arrange for each section member to have access to a tuner and are interested in trying this approach, here are some resources you might find useful:
How to create a tuning chart: http://www.clarinet-now.com/clarinet-tuning-chart.html
A Pdf chart to capture tuning information: http://www.clarinet-now.com/support-files/clarinettuningchart.pdf
An alternative chart that you might prefer: http://bjhmusic.homestead.com/Intonation_Chart_Worksheet-_Clarinet.pdf
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2011-07-01 00:17)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-06-30 02:34
Jack,
I haven't read your whole post yet - I got stuck at the listing you gave:
>
> Usually Flat: D3, E3, E4
> Usually Sharp: A3, D4, G4, A4, G5, A5, B5, C6
> Usually in tune: C4, B4, C5, E5, F5
>
I'm not sure how you're naming the octaves. Using the nomenclature suggested at the top of this BB page (C4 = 1st leger line below treble staff), there is no D3 on a clarinet (without a C extension). Are A5, B5 and C5 the "break" notes?
Karl
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-06-30 02:56
Reading farther, I see your references to F4, G4, F5 and G5, which seem to fit with the C4="middle" C system. But then you mention tuning B4 for orchestra. I don't think I've ever noticed a clarinet player using B4 (chalumeau) as a tuning note - I've always used B5 (which is A440).
I think the list you put together is interesting. I am surprised to see that B4 is considered to be usually in tune. It's generally sharper than the "forked" B (with the index finger and sliver key) on clarinets I've owned, and I've always considered the forked version to be the more in tune of the two. Maybe I need to actually check them. One feature of B5 (long B) is that any sharpness (indicated in your chart) can be corrected downward separately (by pulling the bell out a little) without affecting other notes. It's reassuring that both C4 and C5 are generally in tune notes, since the instrument is essentially built to play in the key of C.
Karl
Post Edited (2011-06-30 02:57)
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2011-06-30 04:11
Karl, I apologize for the confusion.
The "Usually Flat" row should have read: E3, F3, E4. (I've corrected my original post to reflect that.) I was working from an ad hoc table that managed to spread itself over two pages of a word document. Trying to pull everything together from the mess I had created, I'm surprised that was the only row I didn't foul up.
Alex, thanks for confirming that my use of B4 was correct. I was beginning to doubt my sanity. I frequently get in trouble with the system we use on this Board but I use it for the sake of standardization. The one I learned (from Turok) based on the piano keyboard is rather different.
Karl, the chalumeau B to which you refer (B3 in the Board's system) was a mixed bag. One table marked it sharp, one flat and two OK.
I only looked at the first four tables of the many that Google presented. I did check Pino and Brymer but neither of them had anything. I did not screen tables based on perceived "quality" of the source and, frankly, no one specified how they came up with their table. I expect some were more carefully constructed than others. I just wanted something quick and dirty. As I said before, it's best to take my table with a grain of salt.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-06-30 06:15
When in doubt about note names, there are always the note smileys like
![[C4]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/c4.gif) or ![[B4]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/b4.gif) ...
--
Ben
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2011-06-30 12:59
After thinking about it, it occurs to me, because there are so many variables that can affect an individual clarinet's tuning but, more importantly, because the tuning of individual notes is all relative, these summary charts on the internet, including the one I gave above, are really useless.
Let me use one of the charts I found as an example. That chart shows E3 and F3 as flat and every other note on the instrument as sharp! How is this chart constructed? It looks suspiciously like it might be based on a B12 or E11 with its 64 mm stock barrel, probably with everything pushed in. With that setup, there are probably a number of mouthpiece/reed/ligature combinations that would give an experienced clarinetist results similar to this. Knowing this information about a specific clarinet/barrel/mouthpiece/reed/ligature that its owner is playing is useful. It gives a baseline from which to explore different options to improve things but, reporting it as an instrument's general characteristic is meaningless without all the qualifiers. No other chartmaker claimed that every note was out of tune one way or another and, if a chartmaker did any tuning before making the chart, there ought to be at least one note in tune. If the person who generated the example chart I'm using had chosen to tune, e.g., G4, that note would become a good one and the rest of the chart could change dramatically -- E3 and F3 should still be flat but any note that is flat relative to G4 should now also show up as flat and any note in tune with G4 should now be in tune. So the chart is essentially worthless because even a small tuning change can change its structure dramatically.
On the other hand, creating an individual chart based on one's own equipment/playing tendencies or even a specific section's (if everyone creates his/her chart playing normally on usual equipment} could be useful to provide a baseline for improvement (at least until the temperature and humidity change). One can now determine what and how much to pull out to bring the instrument to the point where it is easiest to play in tune. One can also determine whether changing some piece of equipment is actually an improvement. Ultimately it highlights the old saw: Instruments don't play in tune, musicians do. (Percussion, including pianos, excepted?)
Best regards,
jnk
who apologizes for hijacking this thread and hopes that at least some of the tangential discussion is useful to the OP
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Author: srattle
Date: 2011-06-30 13:55
Sorry, I haven't read through all the posts here.
I have a very unscientific approach to the problem that might help. It usually helps for me to explain how to play with other people effectively. And it sounds very simple, but if people embrace this, a lot of the problems often go away.
I find that most intonation and balance issues arise from people not truly understanding, or hearing that there is an intonation or balance problem.
Tell the other players to listen to the other people, but most importantly 'not to listen to themselves'
I think most people spend a lot of time trying to hear themselves (whether from ego, or wanting to correct something, or to hear the 'pretty' sound they are trying to make)
This leads to a sound production that is impossible to blend with others.
In a section, or a chamber ensemble, players should know they are not so important individually as they think (also 'principal players') so enjoying the sound the the group makes with force some subconscious correction.
This being said, it might not help, but it has proven very helpful for me, and I am yet to see a reminder of this not help similar situations
good luck!
Sacha
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-06-30 14:18
EEBaum wrote:
> kdk: Doesn't explain the D3 (unless it's concert pitch), but
> note nomenclature is incremented at the C. A3 B3 C4 D4 etc.
>
> Long B is B4.
>
Really!!?? I've been using those numbers incorrectly since the icon next to "The Clarinet BBoard was pointed out to me. I've always thought the numbers incremented at A. Oh, well, live and learn. Probably those note "smileys" are the most accurate way to go.
Thanks.
Karl
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2011-06-30 21:18
The tuning chart method uses pretty well what Tom Ridenour suggests. tune open g...barrel joint, tune low c and g above the staff...pull middle joint, long b...pull bell
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2011-07-01 08:11
That's three joints pulled, tho, so you have to be pretty sharp to begin with...
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Author: CuriousClarinet
Date: 2011-07-01 16:53
Hm. That's interesting. I didn't realize people were still responding to this, I guess. To answer kdk (although he's probably long since given up on this thread) there are five people in my marching/fieldshow clarinet section. At least eight people in the concert band that play clarinet... but some of those will probably end up on bass clarinet.
Anyways, I think our sections tone has gotten slightly better since we started marching band stuff, probably just 'cause they're practicing a lot more then they usually would over the summer. Starting to do a bunch of little ensemble pieces is a really good idea, It'd probably fun too... I'll have to see if anyone else is interested.
P.S.- Kdk, I rarely refer to the note number stuff correctly either, if it makes you feel any better. =p
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