 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2011-06-24 00:20
I’m an old retired engineer turned amateur clarinet player. For the past several weeks I have been doing all sorts of testing to try to help my sound, intonation, staccato, articulation and basically just to aid me in playing better.
Among these tests performed with both my clarinets (see below):
1. Reed strengths all the way from 2.0 to 3.5, using both cane and synthetic.
2. MPs: 5RV Lyre, M13 Lyre, B40, and Fobes Debut, my original mp.
3. Low E to high C chromatic notes, played slowly, played one by one w/tuner for resistance/difficulty-in-playing testing (i.e., on a scale of 1 to 5, throat G might be a 2.0, while high C might be a 3.0 in terms of relative ease of playing for me.)
4. Legato,staccato, tonguing, etc.
I started clarinet 3 years ago, purchasing a 40 year old Selmer Signet Special after a 3 month Bundy rental. One year ago I thought it was time to get a new professional clarinet, so I chose an R13. In the past year, I’ve only used the SSS for outdoor community band functions; otherwise I’ve played the R13. I normally practice 1 to 2 hours daily, seven day a week.
Even after a year, I only recently discovered that it’s much easier for me to play in tune (not flat) with my SSS than my R13 (Imagine playing the R13 a year and not knowing that, oh well).
I only started all this testing because I could not get my throat notes, especially F, to be in tune playing my M13 Lyre on my R13 without much difficulty, even after long warm ups and no pull outs.
Yes, I do know the “13” series can be flat, but with my SSS, I have absolutely no problem with throat F, even with this mouthpiece pulled out 1/8”. Conversely, even with the 5RV Lyre, it isn’t easy for me to keep throat F from being flat on the R13.
Regarding staccato, I get extremely flat on the R13, but not on the SSS. In short, I suppose I can conclude that the R13 is still much too resistant for me, right?
With the tests showing up and down the scale that the R13 is much more difficult for me than the SSS, I am somewhat “flabbergasted”, disgusted, bewildered, and frustrated. I’m thinking that my embouchure, after all this time, should be better…at least to be able to play the throat notes on the R13 in tune without difficulty.
Three years ago my first teacher even told me that I should have no problem with air support, because I am very athletic, even at 73 (I just beat the best racquetball player at the local “Y” who is about half my age, so I don’t think a lack of energy is hindering me).
Being very frustrated, would some of you teachers have any advice for me?
I do have lessons scheduled with a very good university teacher in July, and I’m sure she can help me, but I always look forward to the BBoard’s advice.
I am not yet giving up on the R13 (it’s me, not the instrument), and I hope that someday I will be able to play it as well, or better, than my Signet Special, but in the meantime, would you advise me to put away the R13 (at least temporarily) and just play the Selmer until I am more advanced, or keep struggling with the R13?
As usual, thanks to all who respond.
CarlT
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Author: Bobby McClellan
Date: 2011-06-24 00:37
I cannot say that the problems you are having are the same as what I had when I swapped ot the R13 from my Yamaha
I started with a Yamaha YCL34 using the Pyne Poly crystal mouthpiece. Never had any tuning issues at all. a couple years ago I had the opportunity to purchase an R13 and jumped on it. I loved the mouthpiece I was using on the 34 but when I used it on the R13 I went way flat. when I compaired it to the stock piece the pyne was actually longer than the buffet by almost a quarter inch. Put the Buffet piece on the horn and had not problems with the 66mm barrell
Have you checked the barrel length on the R13? you may need to locate a shorter barrel.
Just a suggestion.
Bobby M. McClellan
Flowood, MS
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2011-06-24 00:51
Bobby, I measured the barrel to be 66 mm.
It says "R13 B 660" on the stock barrel.
CarlT
Post Edited (2011-06-24 11:49)
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Author: pewd
Date: 2011-06-24 04:38
That means its a R13 Bb barrel, 66.0 mm.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2011-06-24 06:39
A couple of thoughts.
1. The tuning problems you're describing are not caused by the instrument's being "too resistant" for you. I'm not completely sure what correlation exists between the instrument's overall resistance and spot intonation problems. You feel resistance as you play - it isn't read on a tuner. If individual notes are stuffy (resistant and fuzzy-sounding) those need to be adjusted by a knowledgeable technician.
2. I'm not sure how useful checking every note with a tuner as you're doing turns out to be. If adjacent notes are noticeably out of tune with each other you might confirm that with the tuner. But I don't understand how the tuner is helping you test "for resistance/difficulty-in-playing." Resistance - or rather stuffiness - in a specific note can be accompanied by flatness (two symptoms sharing a cause, like insufficient pad clearance or too small a tone hole), and such mechanical problems can be fixed. But comparing "resistance/difficulty-in-playing" of notes as far apart as throat G (G4) and high C (C6?)on a scale of 1 to 5 is an apples to oranges comparison. What qualitatively do you mean by "ease of playing?" C6 feels different from G4, which is different from F3 on any instrument.
3. The main problem you seem concerned about is pitch in the throat area. It's very possible that the R13 is tuned lower in these notes than the Signet, and that can be exaggerated by the pitch characteristics of the 13 Series Vandorens. Apart from the higher pitch of the Signet, do the throat notes you're concerned about play flat with other mouthpieces you've tried? If not, the problem isn't you or the Buffet, it's the combination of the R13 and the M13L. If that combination has attractions for you that make it worthwhile, you'll need to adjust the instrument to the mouthpiece.
4. A shorter barrel will bring the throat notes up more than the rest of the instrument. Even a millimeter's difference can be significant. If you're playing a 66 mm barrel, try a 65 and a 64 and see what the effect is. If you borrow them or get them from a music supplier on approval, the barrels can be returned if they don't help.
5. If C6 (the twelfth above thumb F) isn't already sharp, throat F can be brought up by undercutting the LH first finger tone hole (the first open hole when you play F). This isn't useful if C6 is already sharp because raising F4 will also raise C6. G through B-flat can all be raised as needed by undercutting their toneholes. This is not DIY work, but it's easy for a repair tech with the right undercutting tools.
Karl
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Author: Paul Miller
Date: 2011-06-24 07:01
Sounds like your pitch problems are a result of the wood finally getting broken in. You should spend some time with a GOOD repair tech who has experience working on voicing and pitch - he'll be able to fix 95% of the fuzz and pitch problems you're having. Have him tighten up the mechanism, make sure everything is sealing, then sit down with him and spend a couple hours going through the horn line by line. It makes a huge difference.
As for the throat tones running flat and fuzzy, you probably just have to raise the pad heights when the keys are open. It's a fairly straightforward adjustment for the tech. Otherwise you can add venting to bring those notes up a bit - add the sliver key or the left hand C# key to adjust the pitch upward.
If your staccato is generally running flat, you might want to raise your tongue position so that the middle of your tongue is closer to your soft palate. The idea is to focus your airstream a bit better as it enters the mouthpiece - this raises the pitch and should help with the fuzziness.
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2011-06-24 07:10
As far as I know the R13's bore is a bit smaller than other types of Buffet clarinet's. Vandoren mouthpieces are working well with most of the Buffets with stock barrels, but maybe you need a tapered barrel between your Vandorens and your R13.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2011-06-24 09:03
For flat throat notes, definitely try a shorter barrel. This is relatively common. You can get original Buffet ones if you don't want to get into the complexities of barrel shopping. If the 'F' remains out relative to the other notes, then it's an adjustment issue.
> would you advise me to put away the R13
In short, play what works. Play the Selmer and work in the background on getting the R13 right.
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Author: Bb R13 greenline
Date: 2011-06-24 09:23
I'm not a teacher I'm a highschool student so take what you will from my limited but still valid knowledge
I have an m13 mouthpiece and for me they just play way to flat in the throat tones (I play on an r13 buffet btw) the tone was good but intonation comes first so I switched back to my b45. Also some of this resistance could be because the tip opening(or something) is very small on the m13 and makes playing difficult without a very well trained airstream. I could only get a mf at most out of it
On the subject of buffets resistance I'd say yes in general they are alittle more resistant then say a student model especially if it's an old buffet but I wouldn't say so much so that you should have a problem with one. Maybe have a repairman check it out. You also could try a shorter barrel to raise the pitch
Last thing, you could also have a preconceived idea that your buffet is more resistant and therefore harder to play so you subconsciously try to compensate for it. Me and my tutor have worked a lot on trying to fix subconscious bad habits and its not easy. Although usually what happens your throat tightens causing the pitch to rise so it's probably not that if your flat. Pushing your jaw forward might flatten the pitch though. Maybe you do that?
Anyway that's my 2 cents hope it helped:)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2011-06-24 12:26
Bb R13 greenline wrote:
>
> Also some of this resistance could be because the tip
> opening(or something) is very small on the m13 and makes
> playing difficult without a very well trained airstream. I
> could only get a mf at most out of it
>
Well adjusted reeds are also important. A reed that doesn't vibrate well on the mouthpiece, even one with a close tip and relatively long curve like the M13-15 mouthpieces, will limit response and dynamic range.
Karl
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2011-06-24 14:54
Kdk: I will attempt to address your 5 points.
1. For me to play, compared to the Selmer, any given note up and down the scales well and in tune on the R13 using any of the aforementioned MPs, I have to use more air pressure than I do with the Selmer. I will admit that this may very well be solved by using a different (shorter) barrel since a key phrase above is “and in tune”. I find that if I relax my embouchure while playing the R13 to the extent that I play with the Selmer, I go flat by about 12-15 cents on the tuner no matter the MP.
2. What I attempted to do by trying to quantify the relative difficulty of playing individual notes was that some notes are more difficult or are more resistant for me anyway than others nearby. For example, Clarion A above the staff is more resistant than Clarion G above the staff. At any rate, this is probably irrelevant to my current problems.
3. Yes, pitch in the throat area is my biggest concern; however, up to C6 and into the altissimo, I still play flatter on the R13 than with the Selmer with any given MP.
4. Here’s where I probably need to try a shorter barrel. One barrel maker previously told me that a shorter barrel would make all, not just the throat notes, sharper, the implication being that it wouldn’t sharpen the throat notes any more than the rest of the notes, but you’re saying, “A shorter barrel will bring the throat notes up more than the rest of the instrument”. So I will likely try a 64 and a 65 as you say. Won’t hurt to try, and it just might be the answer to a lot of my problems.
5. C6 is exactly, spot on, in tune with thumb F, and I know that, at least, is a good thing. In other words both are flat, not just one. Thus the shorter barrel route is looking good.
Paul: It's about 60 miles to the nearest "good" tech, but I will see about taking it in and getting it worked on, tuned up, etc. I believe, looking back, that it's not a lot different than when it came from Muncy's, and I understand Phil Muncy always assures them to be set up well before going out. At any rate it won't hurt to "get a checkup".
Bobby: I just checked the MP that came with my R13, and it's at least an 1/8" shorter than one of the VDs; consequently it plays sharper, but otherwise not a good MP as several BBoard members have stated before
Wow, I just checked the price of a Buffet barrel, as well as a Muncy, and they are $150. If all I want is a basic 64 or 65 barrel, would you please suggest a more economical alternative? Muncy appears to have some "basic" barrels that are only $60. I suppose I could try one of each.
CarlT
Post Edited (2011-06-24 14:57)
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Author: William
Date: 2011-06-24 15:38
Another thought--if your SSS plays easier for you and is more "in tune" than the R13, just play it. There is no virtue in driving a Corvette if it will not "ride" like a Chevy Malibu. Your Selmer Signet may actually be a better clarinet than your Buffet R13. Not all "pro" clarinets play up to professional standards. That is why good clarinetist's spend so much time auditioning so many different instruments--to find "the one" that plays best for them. For you, maybe it's your Signet.
FWIW, I am 70 and find that when my "chops" are in shape, I have to use a 67 mm Buffet barrel in order to play "in tune"--A = 440. In fact, when my clarinet is properly warmed up, I need to pull the mouthpiece a bit to maintain this pitch--otherwise it becomes A= 442. To help strengthen your embouchure, try playing some long tones such as a C major scale, each note held for twelve seconds (or as long as you can) with crescendo and diminuendo. Use your tuner to maintain the pitch from beginning to end. Do this only taking an adequate breath between each note, resisting the urge to put the clarinet down and "rest" too much. This is "aerobics" for your lips and will build endurance, which is what you need to play in tune throughout a whole concert. Give it a try for a week and see if it helps the intonation of your Buffet R13. Just a suggestion....good luck.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2011-06-24 15:41
Carl. You can get a very nice barrel to try out from Backun Musical Services. Te Protege barrels are $99.00. You can also inquire about prices on their "studio" barrels. Morrie and his crew are great people to work with.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2011-06-24 16:55
Just want to comment on the Muncy barrel. A colleague of mine uses one on his R13, and tried it out on a very, very old (1926) Buffet of mine that has multiple pitch issues.
I was just astonished at how well in tune that old instrument played with the Muncy barrel. With the Muncy barrel, it is a useable instrument again. The barrel may be pricey, but it can work wonders to unify and stabilize pitches. I would not discount it out-of-hand just because of the price.
Susan
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Author: Bb R13 greenline
Date: 2011-06-24 20:34
On the subject of barrels I play on the backun traditional barrel made of grennadilla and it both helps tuning and increases projection so maybe you could look at those.
Also you cant expect your tuning to be perfect after only 3 years of playing, a lot of problems are problems with the player not the instrument, i would get a professional to help set up your instrument and if he can play it in tune with the exact clarinet/mouthpiece/reed/ligature your using than there Is no reason you can't
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Author: Leanne E.
Date: 2011-06-24 22:29
I've played for 15 years and I still run flat on my wooden Yamaha...I was doing fine on the plastic Yamaha and Artley...so I bought a shorter barrel, and now I sound great on all of my clarinets.
Just as one reed size doesn't fit everyone, I strongly believe that one barrel size does not fit all as well.
That said, speak to a teacher or some sort of clarinet professional before dropping a ton of money on a barrel. They sure can be expensive, and it would be most economical to buy the right one on the first try
Good luck!
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2011-06-25 21:10
A Very Important Point:
You need to be 'in tune' (with whatever you decide is 'in tune') with the barrel pulled out just a smidge.
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-06-26 02:32
Carl,
2 quick points...
-I had the same issue with a large resistance difference between G5-A5 on one of my R13's. Had a bit of under-cutting done and a few other tweaks to bring it "into shape."
-Your instrument was probably set-up correctly when Muncy shipped it. Yet, as Paul Miller suggested, the clarinet does "settle-in" after a bit of time so minor re-adjustments are often needed.
Just my 2 sense;)
I see that you are going to work with a teacher in July.... It would be wise to let her guide you as to equipment adjustments, barrel options and what you physically are doing. I can't see nor hear you playing so I would not presume to offer any specific suggestions. (As you stated, you are already frustrated; take any specifics offered here with a grain of salt. We can't diagnose for you, but only make your clarinet-life more "flabbergasting" than it currently is.)
As for age concerns... you've got 40 years on me and you're playing racquetball? -No need to worry on that non-issue! I walk 18 holes and I have to ice my knee down afterwards..... not to mention my back. I can't wait to get old ![[frown]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie2.gif)
-Jason
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Author: cjshaitan
Date: 2011-06-26 10:49
hey dude,
didnt bother reading your post but just wanted to say that change ur equipment wnat sovle any problem...... try practicin 6hrs a day for a few yrs then see how much better u get
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Author: Wes
Date: 2011-06-26 17:59
A while back, I bought a used Selmer Signet for a granddaughter on auction that, after overhaul, is quite a fine instrument and in good enough tune. The Signet sound does not have that ringing quality that the R13s are known for, however.
The R13s seem to have slightly lower Es and Fs in the first register left hand. These can be fixed by a competent repair person by undercutting the proper holes. Undercutting will raise the low register note pitch with minimal effect on the corresponding upper register note. It may also help to focus the sound by saying eee rather than aww when playing, keeping the mouth tube small.
Older R13s may have sharper second register Bs and Cs, which led to the development of the tapered Moennig and Chadash barrels, which can lower those pitches. Newer R13s may be better but may still have a tendency to be low on the first register Es and Fs in the left hand. My 2006 R13 is ok with it's 66mm barrel, but I still undercut the holes to bring up the E and F in the left hand.
I also have an older R13 from 1971 that works best with a Chadash 65mm barrel as it also was flatish with the original 66mm barrel. The Es and Fs were also low in that instrument. When I first bought it NOS in 1993, it was even slightly flatter and needed a 64mm barrel. That 64mm barrel can come in handy where one has to play better in tune in cold rooms with no warmup. Good luck!
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-06-27 04:18
I'm with william. If the SSS gives you less problems, play THAT one. No sense if fighting the clarinet when you can be concentrating on the music and other aspects.
As per a few things from your post, I've played my fair share of R13s, and almost EVERY one of them had a horribly flat thumb F and thumb/forefinger E. To the point where I found it easier to play in tune by opening the Eb/Bb side key to raise them and then lower the pitch with my embouchure a few cents than to try to raise then about 14 cents. I believe its a design issue as the R13 prestige, greenline, Andrew plain wooden one all seem to have them.
As far as barrels for R13, I like Muncy barrels for tuning and they also seem to free up the horn and make it less resistant. But I personally have felt that Moennig style barrels really seem to focus the sound and make your tone purer.
Don't be fooled into thinking the R13 is a superior horn simply because its an R13. My buffet E13 consistantly outplays every R13 I've ever tried. Most recently I gave it to my instructor to ask if it was worth fully overhauling and he told me there were a lot of things he liked about it better than his horns. His advice was to fix up the E13 and not even waste time trying out professional models. I guess in his opinion, this particular clarinet IS a professional level one.
Evaluate each clarinet as a whole, and dont worry about make/model. As for your tonguing, can't help you too much there. I'm fighting that battle myself. I will say to take it slow. Tonguing sixteenths at 120 doesn't count if they aren't on pitch and clear. Start a metronome, keep your embiuchure locked in position, keep a constant Airstream, play an open g and the ONLY thing that should move is the tip of the tongue moving to the Reed to stop its vibration. Start at 8th notes at 60 bpm and when that's sounding good and consistant, move up ten/fifteen clicks. I'm working on tonguing slowly and have gotten immensely better by working slow and concentrating hard on keeping everything the same, every time. Then when you're playing music, focus on tonguing everything like you do your open g. It'll be boring, but it has made me feel as though I've reached a new plateau in my playing.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-06-27 05:45
Carl,
As some are trying to help you with your articulation I suppose we should ask some questions.
-Is it only "staccato" that is dropping in pitch when you articulate? Is this in all registers?
-What do you define as staccato? Short? Separated? Is this in the context of a particular composition/style?
-What vowel(s) are you thinking of when articulating? What consonant(s) are you employing? Remember, we play/sustain on the vowel and begin/end the sound with articulation. (Are you maintaining the airstream?)
-What differences do you feel when articulating on the 2 differing clarinets?
When envisioning tongue movement, keep in mind it is, in fact, impossible to only move the tip of the tongue.
The question is actually how much of the tongue do we move? If moving the "tip" up and down, as is most commonly taught, it may help to find where the optimum "fulcrum-point" is for you. (This point may even change based on tessitura and style.)
*To explain -If we envision the tip of the tongue as the end of a (horizontal) pendulum, there must be a point of attachment. An actual measurement in numbers of the location of this point is not of great importance. What matters is locating the most economical point for you. (Thinking of only moving "the tip" can be a paralyzing metaphor for some, as it carries a connotation that only the very, very end should move. -Thus causing unproductive tension as one "freezes" virtually the entire tongue in a futile battle to isolate the "tip".)
-Jason
Post Edited (2011-06-27 05:47)
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2011-06-27 17:00
Jason asked:
“Is it only "staccato" that is dropping in pitch when you articulate? Is this in all registers?”
It happens much more when:
1. I am playing in the Chalumeau area, say from C4 to G4.
2. I am tonguing, not slurring.
3. I am playing fast notes, not slow ones.
I believe I know what’s going on. I fail to use enough air support when I am playing in situations described above, whereas slurring is much easier to maintain support. It appears my air “runs out” too quickly in the above instances.
“What do you define as staccato? Short? Separated? Is this in the context of a particular composition/style?”
Whenever the music calls for staccato. I believe staccato means to be “separated”.
For an example of when I go flat with staccato, one of the method books I use is Langenus Part l, in which study no. 87 is an exercise in rhythm and syncopation. It’s just a simple little exercise involving Chalumeau notes (with a couple of Clarion measures thrown in).
The exercise is in 2/4 time. First a staccato C4 1/8th note, followed by an accented, non-staccato C4 1/4 note, followed by another staccato C4 1/8th, then in the next measure the same thing exactly except go the Chalumeau D. Then, continue this on up to C5 then back down to C4. By the time I get to G4 (ascending), I am already starting to get flat.
Since I do believe that it’s an air support problem, I am working at it, slowly to be sure, but steadily nevertheless.
“What vowel(s) are you thinking of when articulating? What consonant(s) are you employing? Remember, we play/sustain on the vowel and begin/end the sound with articulation. (Are you maintaining the airstream?)”
Okay, you got me there. I wasn’t actually thinking of any vowels or consonants other than I do try to “voice” properly, using the tongue as has been described much on the BBoard. Also I try to maintain a good seal with the lips all around the mp rather than just vertical…don’t think of letters though.
“What differences do you feel when articulating on the 2 differing clarinets?”
Although in general, the Selmer plays a bit sharper and with less resistant than the R13, for staccato or short, fast notes, I have as much trouble with the Selmer as I do the R13, so that definitely tells me it’s me, not the instruments. More air support, right? If I’m only playing a fairly sustained note, I don’t have to use as much support with the Selmer as I do the R13; however, for staccato, I am just as bad on the Selmer as on the R13.
I do appreciate all who responded to my post, and I’ll continue to try to improve. I believe when I start lessons with my new teacher in July, she will be able to listen and observe and put me on a better path. In the mean time I will follow the suggestions you have given.
CarlT
Post Edited (2011-06-27 17:02)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-06-27 17:43
Not only more air support, but CONSTANT air support. The Airstream you play with should not change. The only thing that should change is whether you're allowing the Reed to vibrate or not. Something my teacher showed me was to leak a SLIGHT amount of air from the corners while playing staccato and listen to hear if the air was changing in intensity or in any way as I tongue. You should hear a constant, non-changing "hiss" through the leak. That means your air support is consistent.
And make sure NOT to make leaking a habit. So id do that exercise about five minutes a day, until I knew my air support would always be there and consistent.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-06-28 00:18
Carl,
As you stated you'll be working with an instructor in July, so she can help you with more clarity than we can here. Until then I can give you some things to simply think about that may give a bit of guidance. (Disregard anybody that tells you concretely what you HAVE to do.)
Articulation is a tricky issue to address in person, much more so "remotely" as we are here. It's difficult to explain exactly what I am doing with my tongue as it cannot be seen, only felt; and in fact our feelings do betray us. Things occur outside of our awareness. (At one point in my progression I would have told you my tongue stayed immobile with only the front 1/2 inch or so moving. Then, one day I actually just listened to the resultant product and simply "observed" my tongue. Suddenly I noticed a multitude of tiny fluctuations occurring, seemingly, automatically. I could no better describe to you how my tongue was adjusting than explain the color yellow to a blind man. I guess I must have "trained" my tongue to do these things outside my own awareness; yet when I realized they were occurring, I could exploit them to some degree to achieve a given "result." Surely there also are minute adjustments in my embouchure that go hand-in-glove as well. )
A few points to consider.....
-It sounds as you are using the term "support" to encompass differing things. Namely, both the act of blowing and the means of metering the air. When you say you are working on improving your support what are you aimed to achieve?
-Alexi stated the air support need be constant. I would amend this and say that air flow must be constant when working on a basic staccato. (And only basic staccato in a "laboratory" setting so to say.)
-You mentioned trying to "voice properly." What does this mean to you? (There have been many debates about what this term encompasses on this forum.)
-I asked about vowels/consonants to try and get a picture of how you were addressing tongue motion. Indeed this would only give a rough sketch, but a basis is needed to discuss.
-Generally speaking, only the front portion of the tongue should move in articulation. This image is used to help achieve a basic economy of motion. Yet, this is a gross over-exaggeration, but I would be remiss to elaborate more currently as it might not help you.
-The jaw should basically be stable when articulating. Perhaps use a mirror and see if there are any adjustments being made. The image of the lips sealing around the mouthpiece as you stated is an apt one, but the support of the teeth should not be negated.
-Now, I'm going to say something that will probably offend some but IS a fact. The embouchure is a controlled bite. That is not to say that you should use undue vertical pressure, but a bit of support from the teeth is needed to control the reed. The amount of pressure, and position of the jaw, is controlled by the musculature around the lips. Too much "bite" is obviously incorrect, but perhaps when articulating you may actually be pulling your jaw away from the reed in an attempt to rely solely on only muscle support. Try articulating and simply observe if this is occurring. (This may way off base, but I have observed it in others before.)
If you have any questions, please ask.
-JH
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2011-06-28 01:27
Buster wrote:
> -Now, I'm going to say something that will probably offend some
> but IS a fact. The embouchure is a controlled bite.
> That is not to say that you should use undue vertical pressure,
> but a bit of support from the teeth is needed to control the
> reed. The amount of pressure, and position of the jaw,
> is controlled by the musculature around the lips. Too much
> "bite" is obviously incorrect, but perhaps when articulating
> you may actually be pulling your jaw away from the reed in an
> attempt to rely solely on only muscle support.
I think I agree with the basic gist of this statement, but I'd re-color it slightly, maybe, to suggest that it's more controlled contact among the teeth, the lower lip and ultimately the reed, which then can be further supported and controlled by the lips drawn around the mouthpiece. Many players, especially those who keep their clarinets at an angle close to the body, wind up getting a lot of that contact from the force of gravity pulling the reed in a rotating downward direction against the lip and teeth - effectively allowing the reed to rest naturally against the bottom teeth. Thus, it becomes (or can become) more a matter of the weight of the reed pressing downward than it is of the jaw pressing (or "biting") upward. I suspect we're both describing substantially the same thing. I do agree that actively pulling my lower jaw downward and away from the reed tends to result for me in less control and a less focused sound.
But years ago I was told by a colleague who was a student of one prominent American clarinetist that the lips should be pushed out in front of the teeth (not over them) to form a soft "pillow" to control the reed's vibration, which should, he said, be accomplished only by the strength of the lips. I can't play that way, at least not well, but unless this colleague completely misunderstood or misrepresented his teacher's approach, some could.
Karl
Karl
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-06-28 03:10
Karl,
We are addressing essentially the same thing with differing terms. Contact probably is a better term as "bite" carries some negative connotations.
I would think that the natural weight of the instrument could affect the amount of contact/pressure exerted by the lower-lip/teeth. I would also propose that increased support with the thumb could counteract this. And the angle of the clarinet, with natural jaw occlusion is so varied that no one player employs these variables the same way. Just goes to show- for all those others listening in- that the "Holy-Grail" embouchure doesn't exist.
I do feel like, in general, the reed is resting against my lip/teeth rather than on top of them. What angle is the mouthpiece in relation to my mouth? well who knows, but I'm not about to break out my protractor! In fact, I feel like the angle changes slightly, just naturally for me at this point, almost like my bottom lip is a fulcrum point of sorts. And then there are all the tiny changes in muscle flexion......
But if I try and analyze all the minute changes that occur whilst playing, even with the utmost attention, I still would fail to notice them all. So much for the "Steady-state" embouchure- which I always found to be a load of crap anyways.
As for supporting the reed with only the tensing of my bottom lip, as your colleague suggested, well I could do it for about 10-15 minutes..... but why in the world would anybody want to work THAT hard. I could hold the mouthpiece with no tooth pressure from the top or bottom at all..... But again, Why? (Maybe some do play this way. More power to 'em!)
I have a fairly prominent lower lip, and I do gather it in front of my teeth a bit. I have to be fairly cognizant of how much contact my lip has with the reed.... Yet, there is an upside as I can varying that amount to control reed dampening. It is simply my architecture. But to totally negate the support of the lower teeth is misguided as you have also suggested.
Post Edited (2011-06-28 03:12)
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2011-06-28 13:01
You know, I am known, certainly by my wife, as being somewhat of a pessimist (though I think realist), and knowing now what I didn't know 3 years ago, I probably would not have even considered the clarinet because of the huge difficulty in learning to play it correctly. But to tell you the truth, I am hooked 110% on the darned thing, and I refuse to give up. As a matter of fact I actually look forward to my practice time.
Yes, it's challenging...very challenging; however, anything that comes easy is likely not worth it in the long run, so be it. Actually, I am very optimistic that I will work all this out (perfect practice makes perfect as you all say).
Another thing, and I'll hush. It's so nice for me to be able to get different viewpoints on playing techniques from different experienced players and/or teachers. For example, the last several posts to this thread prove that although each may have a different approach to a given problem, each seems to respect the other, and all have helped me to be a better clarinet player.
CarlT
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