 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarinetmc
Date: 2011-06-14 11:52
Hi!
I recently graduated with my masters degree and am looking at new clarinets. I currently play on R-13's and am thinking about trying some of the other brands. My teacher from my undergrad was a Leblanc artist and I have had the chance to try all of the Leblanc clarinet over the years. My teacher from my masters was a Buffet artist and switches between R-13's and Toscas...
I am very interested in trying the Yamaha's...I recently tried a student of mine's Yamaha 650...I was actually shocked by how wonderful it was...I am really curious about the CSG, CSV and SEV.
My current Bb is an R13 that was built sometime in 1974, I'd love to find something that plays similarly to the instruments that were made then, but something that is a little less work with intonation...I have tried the Selmer Recital and Signature and they are pretty dead on with pitch, just didn't have quite the definition of sound I like with the buffets.
I would really appreciate your thoughts!
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-06-14 12:24
You'll find lots of positive praise of the higher yamahas here.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Bob Barnhart ★2017
Date: 2011-06-14 14:46
I heartily recommend trying the Yamaha CSG. I switched to a pair of CSGHs (from R13s) 3 years ago and have not looked back. They feel, sound and respond great, have excellent intonation and are much less expensive than other "pro" horns of similar quality. Also I've gotten lots of comments on the Hamilton-plated keys which look great and (for me) seem to be holding up better than silver-plate. Although I am at a loss to explain why, most folks who have played both the Silver- and Hamilton-plated versions favor the latter for sound as well as aesthetics.
Now Yamaha CSGII is available which has an optional LH Ab/Eb key and a low E/F mechanism to raise the pitch of the lowest notes.
Incidentally, one of the reasons I considered them was the experience I had trying a used Yamaha 650 that was easily the equal of an R13.
Good luck in your search.
Bob Barnhart
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Author: concertmaster3
Date: 2011-06-14 15:16
Yamaha's a great instrument! I own a pair of CSV's and love playing them! Sound is great, they respond very well, and in comparing where they fall in the lineup of clarinets, the CSV, CSG, SEV models are all custom lines, which would match up to higher models of Buffet. The 650 is the entry level professional model, much like the R13. So for less than the price of an R13, you're getting a custom level horn.
Try all that you can out, I think you'll enjoy it. Also to consider, if you play C clarinet at all, the CSG barrel might fit your C clarinet and Bb/A's.
Ron Ford
Woodwind Specialist
Performer/Teacher/Arranger
http://www.RonFordMusic.com
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2011-06-14 15:39
I suggest you try Wurlitzers.
One set will last your entire career and beyond, they play with tremendous power and beauty, and you won't have to go through endless barrels and mouthpieces for the next few decades. In short, you can get beyond equipment to the music.
(discalimer: I work for Wurlitzer Clarinets America)
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The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Paul Miller
Date: 2011-06-14 15:58
Along those lines, I ordered a set of Boehm system Schwenk & Seggelke M1000 instruments about two years ago and they have been outstanding. But I don't work for S&S, I just like their clarinets...
...REALLY like their clarinets. They're probably the finest instruments I've ever played.
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2011-06-14 16:26
LOL, good one, Paul--
For the record, I play a set of Fritz Wurlitzer Reform-Boehm clarinets made c. 1951. Along with the other sets of Wurlitzers, they are by far the finest instruments I've played. Their sound is as new as the most recent Wurlitzers, and perhaps more surprisingly, they blend with the new models when played in ensemble. The consistency of Wurlitzers over the generations is astonishing.
So I'm not only an employee, but a enthusiastic client! (and one from before I was employed by WCA)
(and btw, Paul, I agreed with your comments on another thread about there being an entire industry to correct the problems of the R-13. I'm glad there are other options--seems you are too!)
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The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2011-06-14 17:02
Wurlitzr and S&S clarinets are definitely excellent instruments. I just wish they weren't priced in a stratosphere that so few can afford.
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2011-06-14 17:11
Wurlitzers are pretty economical, really. Consider that you'll never have to buy another set of clarinets (they never blow out), never have to buy replacement barrels, new bells, and a hundred different mouthpieces (never finding the "right one").
There are also new financing options that weren't available only a couple of years ago.
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2011-06-14 17:40
I've never heard of the S & S. Are they German?
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Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
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Author: srattle
Date: 2011-06-14 19:34
Marboroughman:
What exactly do you mean by "never have to buy replacement barrels, new bells, and a hundred different mouthpieces (never finding the "right one")"?
I live in Germany, and most people here use Wurlitzer clarinets of all sorts (many are absolutely excellent instruments) and most of the clarinetists here spend a ridiculous amount of time and money dealing with mouthpieces. My old teacher had always a new mouthpiece basically every lesson, and usually kept 5 to 10 with him at all times. Most of the people I studied with were changing mouthpiece ever 2 months or so, most had a wide variety of different barrels and ligatures (many different types of string, as well as other things) and many many people here are starting to use not only french system mouthpieces with a modified barrel, but also specially crafted mouthpiece and plastic reed together (most from a man named Nick Kückmeyer)
So, in short, I can't imagine how buying a wurlitzer would or could possibly solve those other problems. Maybe a decade ago when there were hardly any mouthpiece makers doing german bores, and you had to stay with a plastic wurlitzer. . . .but out of all the clarinetists who I know here, only a tiny handful are still playing those mouthpieces, and all of them have been refaced to a major extent. . .
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2011-06-14 20:40
Sacha,
I certainly won't tell other professionals what they should or shouldn't buy concerning equipment. If one wants to buy Wurlitzers and then alter them with different barrels and mouthpieces, that's their prerogative. There are many ways of going about the art of playing.
Having said this, in my experience, and in the experience of many other Wurlitzer players (not all of them American), there is another way of going about things, and that is to meld one's own playing to the instrument rather than "tweak" the design of a master builder (by changing the equipment). My point is simply that this is possible with an instrument as well crafted as a Wurlitzer. I'm not convinced it is possible with others.
You are right to point out that there are many mouthpiece options besides the ones offered by Wurlitzer. I currently favor the relatively new WZ2 Wurlitzer mouthpiece, but also play the Zinner "Pieterson" model (which, while based off of an old Fritz Wurlitzer design, is not a Wurlitzer mouthpiece).
When I acquired my set of Wurlitzers, included was a barrel of unknown origin, simply marked "Made in France". It is a fine barrel, obviously well made, and yields a warm sound from the horns. But the older I got, and the more I played the instruments, the more I realized that the original barrels were the only "right" ones--that Fritz Wurlitzer had a sound concept for these horns that was more profound than any change I could make to suit my fancy. it was then that I realized when you are dealing with a true master instrument maker, it's best to respect that gift and go with it.
Not everyone will share this concept of playing--not even all Wurlitzer players, as you point out. But for those who have sensed there might be a different way of going about choosing an instrument, and who find this way of looking at things intriguing, I encourage them to try these magnificent horns.
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Paul Miller
Date: 2011-06-14 20:57
Yes, they were pretty expensive but not so much more than a set of Toscas... and vastly superior instruments IMO.
I saved my pennies for about a year before pulling the trigger - and I saved about 20% of what I'd expected to pay because the Euro was falling rapidly against the dollar. So that was a big help. Still, they are absolutely worth the expense.
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Author: CocoboloKid
Date: 2011-06-14 21:06
Still a bargain compared to the Wurlitzers...at current prices, a Tosca Bb + A pair, bought individually, comes out to just around $12,000...or only slightly more than JUST a Wurlitzer Bb. The pair is over $20,000.
I will never complain about my Leblancs being expensive again!
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Author: Joseph Brenner, Jr.
Date: 2011-06-14 21:25
Are you convinced that your R13 is inherently out of tune with itself and incapable of redemption? Have you contacted any of the uber technicians, such as the Brannens or Guy Chadash, about the prospect of custom overhaul that might include key and pad adjustment, tone hole adjustment, or, even, work on the bore? best wishes
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Author: clarinetmc
Date: 2011-06-15 03:17
It's not that I think my R13 is "out of tune" with itself...I just think the overall pitch has gotten sharper with age and continual play...I was using Vandoren 13 series mouthpieces for the last few years which made the pitch very good, but I decided after a few years of being frustrated with the lack of flexibility and the resistance of my Vandorens to go back to the mouthpiece that my old teacher made (a Zinner blank).
I don't know how I feel about having bore work done on my clarinet...I always use Tim Clark for my overhauls and find his work to be spectacular.
I am just curious about what is out there and haven't tried anything but Buffets in the last few years and was wondering what people thought of the other brands other than the standard Buffets. My Masters program was one with a very traditional playing concept and everyone played Buffet clarinets and some sort of M Series Vandoren mouthpiece...it's always interesting to hear people's thoughts on equipment that are different from people who play the "standard" equipment.
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Author: Paul Miller
Date: 2011-06-15 09:19
I have a 15 year old, regular R13 Eb that I sent up to Morrie Backun to overhaul. The intonation had really fallen apart on the instrument over time; he put the bore back to spec (I have no idea how he got Buffet-spec reamers; I would kill to get my hands on that kind of kit...) and did a bit of tuning/voicing work on it - and it plays in tune right at 440. Hell, it responds like a really good Bb now. The problem with bore work is that it's irreversible, but if the horn is so sharp that it's continually causing problems, it might be your only option.
It's a lot cheaper than getting a new instrument... and Morrie is really good about explaining what he's going to do and why. It might be worth talking to him about it before you pick up a new set of instruments.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2011-06-15 13:25
Paul Miller wrote:
> I have no idea how he got Buffet-spec reamers; I would kill to get my
> hands on that kind of kit...
Any decent machine shop should be able to make some for you if you provide the necessary dimensions.
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2011-06-15 17:11
Clarinetmc, was it mandatory that you played on that particular setup or just the way things usually were? I play on Buffet R13s with an M13 (series 13) mouthpiece, but that's what works for me. I switched to the M13-13 this year (I was playing on a 5RV-13 before that; the switch was a good thing). Setup is a very individual thing. The principal clarinet player in one of the orchestras I play in plays on Yamaha Custom something-or-other and that works well for him. Another clarinet player in another group I play plays on a Buffet E-11 and doesn't sound great. I bet he has some of the same issues I had in the beginning of this year when I started taking lessons again. At one point, I told my teacher I was sitting next to "me before I started taking lessons again" because I heard from this other person what my teacher was hearing from me last semester: lack of breath support therefore poor tone.
What I'm trying to spit out in this long-winded ramble is that the player and their equipment both matter in the equation and what works for one doesn't work for the other.
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Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2011-06-15 17:59
Paul Miller wrote:
> Right, but where would I get the dimensions?
You could just measure them off of a new clarinet using a bore guage. It also wouldn't suprise me if there is some published information available for use by repair technicians.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2011-06-16 16:32
"Right, but where would I get the dimensions?"
From a little old Frenchman in a trench coat?
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2012-02-09 18:50
I highly recommend Yamaha for their consistency, quality and price.
I'd put the CSG and CSGII in a category with the Signature if I had to compare. All of which if I feel best suit me.
CSV and SEV are much more like Buffet's R-13 and RC clarinets but the Yamahas have much better intonation.
Anyone who has had to play in a quality chamber group or orchestra knows that intonation is paramount and Yamaha clearly understands this as well.
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2012-02-09 19:29
jnk, the little old Frenchman in a trench coat is the guy who pilfers most of the good reeds from the Vandoren works...
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2012-02-09 20:21
For any, try before buy. I have found the Ridenour- designed instruments to be worthy of consideration, and have owned more than ten , and if I were in the market for a clarinet now I would try his new wood G1 model.
richard smith
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Author: mihalis
Date: 2012-02-09 21:07
rtmyth wrote:
> For any, try before buy. I have found the Ridenour- designed
> instruments to be worthy of consideration, and have owned more
> than ten , and if I were in the market for a clarinet now I
> would try his new wood G1 model.
>
If you have owned more than ten , I will question if they are worthy of consideration.
Mike.
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2012-02-09 21:24
mihalis wrote:
> If you have owned more than ten , I will question if they are
> worthy of consideration.
>
> Mike.
Keep in mind that Ridenour designed clarinets for Leblanc back in the 90's before starting his own company. Given the rate at which some players replace instruments I don't think that 10 over a 20+ year span is all that unreasonable especially if one is trying out different models as they are released.
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2012-02-09 21:45
The only downside to the G1 is that there isn't an A counter part yet. I believe that for most advanced clarinetists who participate are involved in an orchestral or chamber setting, have a similar set (Bb and A) is a must.
I recommend the 650 A (have to order over seas) because it is so good and so CHEAP. If I had to order a r-13a and a ycl-650A to play in a concert on the fly, there is no doubt in my mind that the 650 significantly better.
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2012-02-09 21:50
Little clarification. I bought 3 Concertos for grandchildren. Plus I owned about 5 other makes-2 R13s, Selmer (1947), etc, over many years. Obsession maybe.
richard smith
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2012-02-09 23:21
"Unfortunately, there is no cure [for Gear Acquisition Syndrome]."
Correct, but good gear makes it manageable.
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2012-02-09 23:22)
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Author: Wes
Date: 2012-02-10 06:59
Yes, adjustable reamer sets are available at low cost which can be set to any needed dimension, but the tooling is not the problem, and one should try all other possible fixes before considering reaming a clarinet.
It would be really nice to be able to hear the Wurlitzer, Yamaha, and other fine clarinets without traveling to far away places. Although I attended the ICS show this year, it was fairly inconvenient and inconclusive to evaluate the instruments. I know that Sergio Bosi played so beautifully on his Tosca, however.
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