 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: rborders
Date: 2011-06-14 04:37
After having my clarinet completely overhauled I found the top and center joints to be loose allowing the joints to rock back and forth. I took it back to the shop and he recorked both joints but the problem still exists.
Does anyone have any suggestions on how to remedy this problem?
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-06-14 05:04
The problem is either from the cork or from a loose fit of the tenon itself.
If it's the cork then there are several possibilities.
The cork just might be too thin and needed to use a thicker cork.
If very thick cork (e.g. 1.6mm or more, without much or any sanding) needs to be used, then it's possible it wouldn't be very solid for long. In that case, either the tenon needs to be modified to allow a thinner cork to be used or a two layer cork is need by first corking with a firmer material like rubber cork (aka tech cork, aka gumi cork), then installing the natural cork over it.
Some tenons are for whatever crazy reason made wavy... it wouldn't be terrible with old (worse IMO) method of installing with shellac, but the makers originally installed with contact glue! These tenons support the cork poorly and best to fill the gaps for better support.
If the tenon itself is loose then even the firmest cork probably can get slightly loose at some point if not imediately. Then best to correct the problem instead of trying to get around it with the cork.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-06-14 06:53
IME it's nearly always the tenon/socket wood, not the cork. The cork is just here to provide a grip and an airtight seal, but not to prevent the joints from wobbling, especially if you have to pull out a bit for tuning reasons.
If you take too thick or firm a cork, you simply risk cracking the (relatively thin) wood around the socket.
--
Ben
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Author: salzo
Date: 2011-06-14 11:30
One of my clarinets, the middle tenon was rounded. I could do all sort of cork configurations, but it still wobbled. I finally had the tenon rebuilt.
A temporar fix is to use nail polish and trace the top of the bottom o joint, and on the tenon were the deviation is present. I dont know if that is your problem, but it is something to look for.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2011-06-14 11:51
The middle tenon on my very old R13 had gotten worn and rounded and wobbled even with a tight-fitting cork. My repair tech removed wood at the end of the tenon so it was even with the rest of the area the cork lies and then installed a wider cork to fit the whole area down to the end of the tenon. It seems over several years of very limited use (it isn't my primary instrument) to have held and solved the problem. I'm sure if it hadn't stabilized the joint the next step would have been no rebuild the end of the tenon, I've seen brass tenon ends even on some new instruments, but I suspect the end could also be rebuilt somehow with a grenadilla ring cut to fit over the end of the tenon to replace the original edges.
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-06-14 12:43
Cork is too soft and pliable to be used in this manner as the tenon will still rock. You can have tenons sleeved with either wood or metal to make them fit the sockets better.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2011-06-14 14:16
Well, in fact it doesn't rock on my instrument. But I agree that it isn't a 100% (or nearly) certain fix - probably not very durable on an instrument being used on a daily basis - and that rebuilding the tenon with metal or wood or hard rubber would be the stronger, more permanent option. Still, I'm assuming the end of the tenon needs to be taken down on a lathe anyway to fit a sleeve, so trying to extend the cork maybe doesn't lose anything as a first step attempt.
Karl
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-06-14 14:37
ckdk wrote:
> so trying to extend the cork maybe
> doesn't lose anything as a first step attempt.
In that case I'd try the nail varnish fix first.
--
Ben
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2011-06-14 15:45
It may indeed be that the wood is worn, as has been suggested. But looking on the brighter side, even competent professional technicians sometimes put on cork that is a bit too thin. I had a friend with an R13 that took 3 goes to get it right recently - on a relatively new instrument. Just take it back and ask for it to be made thicker (or do it yourself: recorking isn't hard).
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2011-06-14 18:39
I suspect as mentioned in earlier posts that it's not really a cork problem but a problem with the tenon shoulders.
On a properly made instrument (and some new expensive models don't fit this category) there should be virtually no wobble even with no cork fittted.
The clearance between the tenon and socket should measure just a few thosandths of an inch.
Check how the fit is with the cork removed.
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Author: RAB
Date: 2011-06-15 15:57
This appears to be wear on the wood part of the tenon. As the instrument is put together and taken apart countless times this occurs.
You can have the shoulders built up using carbon fibers and then machined to fit or you could have the wood on the shoulders turned down and have a replacement ring epoxied on top of them and have that turned down to fit. I have used brass and Deleon to do this and the results have been good. I personally would rather have it built up using the carbon fibers than taking any wood off the instrument and thinning the wall down.
I would have the new shoulders be a very tight fit, not binding, but no noticeable rocking. After that the cork joint works like a gasket to form an airtight seal.
Hope this helps!!!
Rodney Berry
Repair Dept
Muncy Winds Music Company
Boone, N.C.
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Author: grenadilla428
Date: 2017-03-04 19:26
Reviving an old conversation to ask:
How much will this rocking middle joint affect the playing? My repairman said there shouldn't be any problems because the cork is doing its job, but I feel like there's a perceptible difference in response between the top and bottom joints.
He wants to work on the tenon, but I need the instrument for the next few weeks, so not able to let it go until next month.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2017-03-04 20:03
grenadilla428 wrote:
> How much will this rocking middle joint affect the playing? My
> repairman said there shouldn't be any problems because the cork
> is doing its job, but I feel like there's a perceptible
> difference in response between the top and bottom joints.
Most likely the cork will prevent a leak as long as it's making contact with the tenon, so the rocking isn't the first suspect if the bottom joint's response isn't good.
But, rocking can be disconcerting when you play - just the feel of the extra movement in your hands is a nuisance. So, IMO I would always prefer not to have any wobble between the sections (or between the mouthpiece and barrel or barrel and top section). Instability is its own problem.
Karl
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2017-03-05 05:15
Apart from the feel of a rocking centre tenon being disconcerting to the player, remember that it also alters the adjustment of the bridge mechanism as it rocks. This could cause all sorts of performance problems.
Tony F.
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