 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2011-06-11 00:21
The reason I'm asking is that I have heard fairly recently two clarinetists say that there is such a note.
One told me high D was it, and the other (a much more qualified individual in my opinion than the former) said either high G or high A (all 3 notes are altissimo notes, not clarion).
Both said that when a person can tongue a series of these notes properly, it goes a long way in showing/monitoring that a person has the right setup, embouchure, mouth placement, air support, etc.
Could some of you elaborate and comment on this?
I am an intermediate player (3 years of playing time), and I do find that I can tongue high G for a short time while monitoring with my tuner. I usually have to use the tuner to get settled down, for I will inevitably start out out of tune, either sharp or flat. I do tire rather quickly when practicing high G.
I have been reluctant to practice scales to high G prior to the present, because I felt I would not actually need high G for a long time, if ever (my biggest aspiration is playing well in our local town band); however, if it is a good analysis note, then so be it, I will practice it.
Thanks for your usual good advice.
CarlT
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-06-11 03:16
I've never heard of this. Doesn't mean people don't use it or that those notes can't indicate what you're suggesting, but it's new to me. I'm not sure why you'd need to torture yourself that way to find out if you're doing things correctly and your equipment is functioning well.
Karl
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Author: davetrow
Date: 2011-06-11 03:37
In his book "Clarinet Fingerings" Tom Ridenour notes of the standard altissimo E fingering that it "tends to be unstable for many players. If a player can play this note securely at all dynamic levels he can assume that his air and embouchure are on a fairly solid footing."
Dave Trowbridge
Boulder Creek, CA
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2011-06-11 14:35
Karl, I went back and looked at my notes from the person who told me that high G was an excellent note to use for analysis of a player's abilities. This person is an excellent teacher, from what I understand, and I hope to start lessons with her beginning in July.
At any rate here is what my notes say: "...Play a series of high G's in order to monitor the AIR, TONGUE placement, Mouth placement, horn angle, healthy reeds, etc..."
Also, "...The ability to play high G with a good sound, tonguing, and pitch will tell just about everything we need to know about what is going on..."
To me this makes good sense; however, I don't recall ever hearing of this on any BB threads (and I even go back a lot and read the archives to further educate myself) so I thought I'd see if any of you teachers had ever used this idea with your students.
Dave, I've heard so much about TR's fingerings book, I must get it. I have a couple of his others, but not the one you referred to. Thanks.
CarlT
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-06-11 15:42
I'd be interested to know more about this. My knee-jerk reaction is that (a) it assumes a level of maturity of the student and might not be applicable to one who is just not ready to control that range and (b) she's suggesting that it indicates so many things that its usefulness becomes questionable. What do you try to correct first, and when (as it almost always does) it turns out there's more than one thing contributing to a player's problems, how do you parse all of that out by listening to that one series of high Gs? You still need to figure out what's going on with more specific diagnosis, which would happen anyway, with or without a high G "test." But there may well be more involved in the process, and I'd be interested to hear more about it once you get into it more with her.
Karl
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Author: salzo
Date: 2011-06-11 15:59
High C- when I can "peep" an altissimo C out, right when I want to, in tune, at a soft dynamic, life is beautiful.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-06-11 17:05
But the problem is, you're not a beginning or intermediate student (since I know your playing and training). I don't question that any of these altissimo "tests" can indicate optimal reeds and voicing in an experienced, established player. But when the problems you're trying to sort out are still relatively basic, they may not tell anything useful from a diagnostic point of view.
Karl
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Author: S.H.J.
Date: 2011-06-12 07:54
In a masterclass with Yehuda Gilad a few months ago, one of the things he emphasized was the tonal characteristics of the clarinet - the altissimo being thin and narrow while the chalumeau sounding rather spread. Interestingly, Gilad's way of averting that problem in the first place is to start beginners up in the altissimo register - the first note he teaches kids is G6. His reasoning was that building the thin, bright high G first would help develop the foundation for the lower registers, and including aspects like the embouchure and jaw position. So following his logic, I would think that the high G would be a good "analysis" note.
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Author: donald
Date: 2011-06-12 11:09
Interesting about Yehuda Gilad. I don't know if i'd go as far as to start students in the altissimo, but i DO get them to do register jumps as soon as they can play low A and B flat- to get the thumb into the correct position as soon as possible, and because it demands of them good tone production.
dn
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-06-12 13:39
S.H.J. wrote:
> In a masterclass with Yehuda Gilad a few months ago, one of the
> things he emphasized was the tonal characteristics of the
> clarinet - the altissimo being thin and narrow while the
> chalumeau sounding rather spread.
Not knowing the context or exactly what he was trying to communicate to whom, I couldn't gushingly accept this description, although whether my reservation is to his terms or the concept itself, I don't know. In any case your next paragraph (below) makes it sound more like he is describing a problem, not an ideal or the instrument's natural qualities.
> Interestingly, Gilad's way of
> averting that problem in the first place is to start beginners
> up in the altissimo register - the first note he teaches kids
> is G6. His reasoning was that building the thin, bright high G
> first would help develop the foundation for the lower
> registers, and including aspects like the embouchure and jaw
> position. So following his logic, I would think that the high G
> would be a good "analysis" note.
Again, any problem I have with describing an ideal G6 as "thin, bright" might just involve word choice. In my experience with lots of beginners, especially in group lessons, this would be a route to frustration for many, many of them. Still, I'd love to hear one of these initial lessons beginning with G6. I wonder what reeds he starts them on, how long it takes them to get the first G6 to sound, how long after that they get it to a point from which he lets them move on and what kind of musical content these students can work with in a register for which, tone production aside, the fingerings are barely logical. Or does he get them to produce G6 and then, having established it, jump back to a more traditional pitch range using the same embouchure?
I've often thought, but I confess never actually tried, starting beginners on G5. Most of them can produce this note if they haven't gotten used to honking tubby chalumeau notes, and the process of getting them to play it in tune would, I think, accomplish what Gilad's approach seems to be attempting. The embouchure required to play a focused, in tune G5 will still serve to produce rich chalumeau notes and the fingerings could be the same as the ones normally used in beginning lessons. The main problem, which I think might be less than I imagine, would be covering the thumb hole and pressing the register key at the same time. You could even cheat here at first by temporarily removing the register key or holding it open with a piece of cork just below the opening. Right hand coverage would present nearly the same problems it does with a more traditional starting point (around C4 to E4) and working downward.
None of this adds much if anything to the value of any specific note as an indicator of what to fix, although the potential to prevent problems from developing in the first place is always worth considering.
Karl
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2011-06-13 01:16
Karl, FWIW I believe that being an older adult learner, I would've had a heck of a time trying to get any of the altissimos for the first few lessons anyway. A youngster though might just breeze right through...just don't know.
CarlT
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