 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: greenslater
Date: 2011-06-01 11:14
Today I had an unfortunate experience when teaching an 11 year old student - she has been playing for 3 years. She was playing through her scales and I had asked her to change onto a harder reed (a Rico royal 2.5). She sounded fine on it but did comment it was harder to blow and had a drink of water. A few minutes later after working consistently on the scales she looked blankly at me and fainted. Luckily I caught her (and the clarinet) and as I was sitting her down she fainted again. Her mother, who is a medical professional, was there and obviously we ended the lesson and after awhile she seemed fine but her mother did say she had never fainted before. (incidently the student is quite fit and athletic - a state rep runner)
Most of my students are high school aged. I've never had this happen before. Have others had similar experiences? I'm now quite reluctant to increase her reed strength, how do I know if I'm asking too much? Any other thoughts?
Thanks Brad
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2011-06-01 11:52
Hi Brad,
My guess is the student was hyper-ventilating after changing her breathing due to the stiffer reed. There is lots of literature to explain this phenomena.
However, if there is concern about the student's health, the mother being a health-care professional will know what to do, When I was teaching a lot of young flute players in elementary school, I had to be careful about this situation as the beginning players could easily hyper-ventilate trying to produce the correct airstream.
HRL
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2011-06-01 12:10
This is a tough one. I've been teaching for a long time, but I've never had a student faint. It might appear that you were asking her to play on a reed that's too hard, but to be honest, most students who have been playing for three years can easily handle a Rico Royal 2 1/2. I don't blame you for asking her to try the harder reed, and I probably would have done the same thing.
Was the room warm? Was she under stress?
Could the problem have been with her particular reed? Rico Royals are usually consistent, but sometimes you'll find a bad one (or one that's on the "hard" side of 2 1/2). I'm also wondering if the problem is with her mouthpiece. Perhaps it can only handle very soft reeds. It's also possible that her clarinet is very resistant.
I often recommend the Clark Fobes Debut to young students, but this might not be appropriate for this young girl. Would it be possible to have her try various mouthpiece and reed combinations so that she can find the one that works best for her?
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2011-06-01 12:12
This should be taken very seriously and I hope your strudent and her mother don't just brush it off.
She might have a serious heart condition like HCM, the one I have and which forced me to stop playing clarinet for several years. It is easily misdiagnosed as activity induced asthma and many other conditions. World class athletes can suddenly be effected by HCM (so many of our college basketball players have suddenly died on the court because of it).
I'm not saying she has it, just that fainting in a lesson should not be brushed off as a repertoire issue on a hot day.
For more information, see http://www.4hcm.org/
Another invaluable resource is http://my.clevelandclinic.org/heart/disorders/hcm/default.aspx
If you need any other information, please feel free to contact me through the Wurlitzer Clarinets America email on our site.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
Post Edited (2011-06-01 12:30)
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2011-06-01 12:36
There was absolutely no mention of hyper-ventilating in the OP.
I think it would be really irresponsible of us to try to diagnose the problem over the internet. This girl needs to be checked out by a doctor.
Let's all try to refrain from playing internet MD.
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2011-06-01 13:31
MarlboroughMan, thanks for the advice and for sharing your story. HCM is a condition that should be taken very seriously. I know a family that that had two adult relatives die very suddenly from it (they had no idea they had it). What happened to this girl is extremely unusual, but yes, it should be investigated by a doctor.
When I taught in the public schools, I had young flute students who would start to hyperventilate. They'd get dizzy for a couple minutes, they'd rest and try again, but none of them ever came close to fainting. I've seen my private clarinet and sax students get tired, but again, none have ever come close to fainting. If you had asked this girl to play on a no. 5 reed for 15 minutes straight this could possibly be explained, but on a 2 1/2 Rico Royal? Very unusual.
I'd like to amend my earlier advice. I still think it would be wise to check out this girl's clarinet equipment. However, she should also see a doctor ASAP. I wonder if it would be a good idea for her to take her clarinet along. Perhaps she could play using softer reeds and harder reeds (on a few different mouthpieces and clarinets), and the doctor could check to see if playing the clarinet is putting a strain on her heart.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-06-01 13:45
I did have a student faint - or at least black out briefly - at a lesson once. Middle school girl, as it happened, with serious allergies. I got her a drink of water and let her rest for awhile, then she wanted to go on with the lesson and had no further problem. We let her mom know when she picked her daughter up after the lesson. I never heard that there was any bad finding in any medical follow-up they did, and the girl continued to study with no further episodes.
Certainly your student's mother should follow up with the girl's pediatrician or their family doctor. But far more likely than finding any serious problem is that something unusual was going on that day. She could have been dehydrated from some other activity or stressed by something that had happened earlier in the day. It could have been warm for her in the room. It might have been a day with a high pollen count outdoors. She might have been stressing over the reed change itself and been pressing too hard to adjust. At 11 she might have been experiencing unfamiliar hormonal shifts you'd have no way of knowing or reason to know about. Any number of things could have been wrong from serious cardiac issues to simple fatigue.
Her mother will, hopefully, take whatever steps seem needed to rule out the more serious possibilities. Meanwhile, if you still think a harder reed is in order, next time you experiment, find a pretext on which to change her reed yourself (the experience you described may have spooked her about changing) and don't tell her or let her see what you're putting on, at least until after the experiment either fails or succeeds.
Karl
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2011-06-01 13:52
A couple of years ago, during the summer, I had a middle school student very nearly pass out. We were standing for the lesson and the room was very warm. She went pale and had to sit to keep from passing out. The lesson ended right there. I didn't want the liability of anything more serious happening to her on my watch. The mother was in the parking lot and was able to come get her quickly.
(With young female students, there is another consideration. A monthly dip in blood pressure or iron levels, combined with environment, could easily make one feel light-headed while playing the clarinet.) No internet MD here. Just personal experience.
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2011-06-01 13:52
kdk wrote:
"But far more likely than finding any serious problem is that something unusual was going on that day. She could have been dehydrated from some other activity or stressed by something that had happened earlier in the day. It could have been warm for her in the room. It might have been a day with a high pollen count outdoors. She might have been stressing over the reed change itself and been pressing too hard to adjust. At 11 she might have been experiencing unfamiliar hormonal shifts you'd have no way of knowing or reason to know about."
And your medical degree is from where?
What makes you qualified to give this advice?
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2011-06-01 14:10
From a doctor here in the states:
Our daughter passed out cold a couple of years ago (as a teenager). Her dad and I were, of course, very concerned and rushed her to the ER. A battery of tests were done (showing nothing of consequence) and she was referred to her physician. The physician explained to us that this type of occurance is actually not that rare in teenage girls. He attributed it to the fact that girls have big hormonal swings each month and loss of blood. He said that the blood flow often doesn't get to the head fast enough, especially when a girl stands up quickly--which is what happened in our daughter's case. His advice was for her to take her time getting up and, if she felt faint, to plop down immediately, even if on the floor, to prevent a fainting spell.
We can't know if this was the case with the girl in the original post, but just wanted to share one doctor's perspective.
(I think this often happens with girls during hot, summer marching band practice. It's hard for a band director to determine if someone is being lazy or if there is a real concern. I've had my female high school students complain about this.)
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2011-06-01 14:10
Clair Annette wrote:
"I didn't want the liability of anything more serious happening to her on my watch."
*
We now have a frame of reference for Claire's opinions.
Now, for those of you whose level of concern for your students extends beyond legal liability, I'd suggest letting their parents know there could be a range of problems associated with a young lady losing consciousness while playing clarinet, and that they should probably get their daughter to a good doctor immediately.
That way, if it isn't really serious, they'll know. But it if it is serious, they can potentially save her life.
They can also, of course, ignore the advice. But at least you will have done the responsible and caring thing.
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-06-01 14:10
Oh, for heaven's sake, it's either something serious or it isn't. Which do you think is more likely? I haven't diagnosed the problem, only suggested a range of (non-exclusive) possibilities. Of course, *as I said,* the mother should take the occurrence seriously and have her daughter checked out by a qualified physician.
In any case the OP isn't responsible for any other decision than how to proceed with future lessons. All I meant to suggest was that in my experience as a clarinet teacher fluky things occasionally happen for transitory reasons once and never again.
Karl
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Author: salzo
Date: 2011-06-01 14:12
I have students cry all of the time, but never faint.
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2011-06-01 14:14
"We now have a frame of reference for Claire's opinions."
You betcha, MM. I love each of my students and have a good relationship with them and with their parents. You'd be a fool, though, to not be conscious of libel as a private teacher, in the United States, in a situation where you are alone with the student.
(Skeptical much?)
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2011-06-01 14:21
kdk wrote:
"Oh, for heaven's sake, it's either something serious or it isn't. Which do you think is more likely?"
*
It doesn't matter in the slightest which is "more likely." It only matters what the problem actually is. And neither of us is qualified to make that diagnosis.
As one who lost a performance career to similar symptoms and had open heart surgery to correct it, I think it's wise and kind to say "please recommend that this girl be taken to a good doctor."
Everything else clutters what could be a serious issue (let's hope it's not).
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2011-06-01 14:27
No one is going to get sued for saying "From what I've heard, you daughter might have a serious medical condition, and I respectfully recommend that you get her to a doctor."
That's just called caring.
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2011-06-01 14:38
Did you miss the part where I said the mother was able to come quickly? From the parking lot? (I always have my cell phone with me and I always have the parents' numbers.)
You really can't let go of this presupposed idea that I don't care about my students, can you? Your need to make snide remarks and be argumentative serve nothing more than to just take up space on this board and, for whatever reason, draw attention to yourself. **smiling and shaking my head**
I feel darn good about myself. I don't need to keep participating in this discussion or defending myself as a teacher to prove anything. You, however, just keep posting away. Someone, I'm sure, will listen to you.
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2011-06-01 14:49
Most of the folks who post here do so because they care about playing and teaching clarinet; I'm sure you're no exception.
My comments on this thread are for one purpose: to highlight the potential seriousness of the situation mentioned by the OP, and to discourage potential trivializing of that situation.
No offense is meant.
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-06-01 14:56
When I was a teenage, many years ago, I fainted about three times, once on a NY subway car and twice at other times, not at a lesson. Doctors could never find anything wrong and I've never had another problem. So my answer is, who knows why, could be anything, could be nothing. Seems going from a 2 to a 2 1/2 reed is not such a bug jump to actually cause this happening to anyone but then again I guess it depends on the person and the condition they were in at the time. ESP
eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-06-01 14:59
MarlboroughMan wrote:
> As one who lost a performance career to similar symptoms and
> had open heart surgery to correct it, I think it's wise and
> kind to say "please recommend that this girl be taken to a good
> doctor."
>
> Everything else clutters what could be a serious issue (let's
> hope it's not).
>
Well, everyone (myself included) who has responded seems to agree that the student's mother, once told about the fainting episode, should seek qualified medical help to have her daughter's condition evaluated.
Given your experience, your sensitivity and harsh reaction to any response here that adds even slightly to that is understandable. You might even have chastised the OP for having asked the question here in the first place (even physicians who play clarinet and read this BB wouldn't/shouldn't try to actually diagnose a medical condition without having examined the subject).
I think the OP's basic question, though, had more to do with how to proceed (vis a vis the student's reed strength) assuming - hoping, certainly - that, once the mother followed up it would turn out that the cause wasn't a severe or life-threatening one.
Karl
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2011-06-01 15:03
World Wide Wrestling here or what?
Guys, stop attacking each other, there's no need for that, and my hunch is that nobody meant to offend each other in the first place.
Get her checked out - her parents most likely know that, and will.
No way to know otherwise, except that the change in reed probably was more coincidental than cause/effect. But even that could be part of it. Some reeds just "won't play".
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2011-06-01 15:20
LOL...no worries Karl.. I won't chastise the OP! And your point is well taken that the OP concerned how to move forward specifically in the clarinet lesson.
In the case of this situation, I felt some tenacity and clarity was worthwhile on something rather specific (and which might not have been itself entirely on topic!). Otherwise it might get lost.
You are kind to call my position understandable--thank you, sir.
Let's all hope together that this girl never has any trouble beyond that one fainting spell, and like Ed Palanker can say years later that she was never troubled by it again.
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-06-01 19:01
Last year a horn student, may have been bassoon, at the Peabody Conservatory died during a lesson, now that's a everlasting problem. I'm talking dead. This girl could have fainted for any number of reason and it wasn't the teachers fault. The parents will look into it and the student will likely continue to play the clarinet and never have the problem again, period. Don't change you're teaching techniques because of this one isolated incident. ESP
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2011-06-01 19:10
Principal Clarinet for the Pennsylvania Ballet Stuart Best (back in the late 90's) died giving a clarinet lesson to two girls in a school practice room. He had a heart condition. I had played a job with him a couple of months earlier, he was fine.....
It happens!!
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
Post Edited (2011-06-01 19:11)
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Author: greenslater
Date: 2011-06-02 03:38
Ok it was quite a surprise to wake up and find 26 replies. Thank you to those who expressed genuine concern and provided 'food for thought'.
Just to clarify a few points or questions;
I spoke to the students mother this morning to check how things were going and all seemed well. The mother was seeking further information from collegues today. I'm quite quite convinced they will seek appropriate diagnosis and as I see it this is now the families responsibility. My role is now to consider how best to continue teaching her.
The students set up was pretty standard. B12 with the original mouthpiece (she has played on this since beginning). The reed she changed from was pretty old and blown out so the change to the 2.5 would have felt quite different. (Certainly the tone improved drastically) However, this student has reasonable chops, a 3 octave chromatic scale is no problem for her.
The tempreture was comfortable. We're heading into winter here in Melbourne so heat is certainly not a problem!
Reading through a few points become apparent:
- No this isn't common. I think this was quite different to hyperventillating sometimes experienced by flute students. Whilst I don't know if all of the replies were from experienced teachers, some were and no one replied with anything like "yes this sometimes happens with younger players".
- In discussion with the Mum we've identified a few things to watch out for (asking for water, glazing of eyes, wobbling). In regard to reed choice, I've always been guided by the tone but I guess I'm going to have to be very careful not to ask too much.
I'll keep you all informed if anything interesting comes up or if I have further questions.
Thanks & best wishes
Brad
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Author: Plonk
Date: 2011-06-04 13:37
I've no idea how common it is, but it happened to me when I was about 13 in a clarinet lesson. I felt myself about to faint and lost vision, and managed to get myself sat down in time, so didn't actually faint. My teacher gave me a drink of water and I recovered quickly enough to catch the train home (alone). No one thought of taking me to the doctors! I had about 3 such episodes, in other places. I think it was probably hormonal, also low blood sugar due to bad eating habits and I grew out of it quickly (within 6 months).
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