 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Red Chair
Date: 2011-05-03 21:08
I've been looking carefully through my collection of mouthpieces and I've noticed that many of my 'hand finished' pieces don't actually look that hand finished.
The CNC cutting machine leaves small curved lines on the table and rails and I would presume that any hand finishing on these areas would remove these marks. Indeed, on one of my Smiths, my McClune and on pieces by Livengood and Wodkowski that I have (although these aren't on Zinners) the cutting marks are not visible at all. On another of Smiths (a much later piece), my Grabner, a BG and on all three Backuns that I own the marks are clearly visible on boththe table and rails.
Can anyone if these marks are a sign of a lack of hand finishing on these pieces?
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-05-04 01:06
Actually, the lines can be an indication of quality.
Ralph Morgan, who worked for Selmer, told a horrifying, funny story about Selmer mouthpieces supplied with new instruments. The facing is, or used to be, put on by a machine-controlled diamond point, scribing across the rubber. This makes a perfect facing with a finish that's a bit dull, since it's a series of super-fine scratches. He got a slew of complaints about bad mouthpieces. When he looked at the mouthpieces, he saw that they had a mirror finish on the lay, but were unplayable. It turned out that customers had complained about the dull surface, so Selmer assigned an unskilled worker to polish the lay of every imported mouthpiece on crocus cloth (a soft, rouge-filled type of sandpaper). This made the surface shiny but ruined the facing.
Kal Opperman worked on a mouthpiece with files and 400 grit sandpaper, or even put the lay on a knife sharpening stone. When it played right, he stopped. He said he ruined many mouthpieces by trying to make them shiny.
If it plays good, it IS good.
Ken Shaw
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Author: ddavani
Date: 2011-05-04 01:27
Hand finishing doesn't have anything to do with quality. The CNC devices can put out mouthpieces, barrels, bells, etc. with the utmost precision that makes each one as close to being identical as possible. If it's a good mouthpiece design, it shouldn't matter if it's hand finished or not.
-Dave Davani
http://allclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2011-05-04 13:35
I think what you are seeing is MILLING on the table (where the flat back of the reed rests). These are the concentric fine lines you notice on finished cast iron tops on, say, a table saw or metal shop machine.....or on the table of a mouthpiece. Often this is the final step (with polishing) of the manufactured blank.
BUT....
You typically will not find MILLING lines on the upper rails, tip, nor inside the baffle on a handworked mouthpiece. You might still see milling lines on the table.
Because.........
I believe that if the table is flat, the facer/hand finisher leaves it alone unless they want to creat a slight concavity on the table (see prior posts about that aspect). Otherwise, the hand finishing is done INSIDE on the baffle, side walls, throat, chamber, etc. Also, the rails and tip might be worked upon.
Perhaps a facing artist could chime in here and discuss further, but I believe my statements above are correct.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2011-05-04 13:38)
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2011-05-04 14:47
(Disclaimer I sell new Chedeville mouthpieces)
Only 3 maker's mouthpieces currently are entirely CNC machined from rod rubber stock. All other mouthpieces are molded and then the table and facing are milled, I guess that a computer controlled milling machine might also qualify as CNC but not usually by 4 or 5 axis CNC machines to the final table and lay. The trick of course is not to heat the rubber too much in the milling process so that it will not form a concavity when cooled. Depending on the machinery and cooling used there may be symmetrical patterns left on the table.
The table and lay of mouthpieces are not,or should not be polished after milling. The rest of the mouthpiece is polished to a gloss finish. A custom maker will often adjust the lay, tip opening, and do inside chamber and baffle work by hand. Sometimes the machine applied table and lay are just fine and do not need adjustment. There are so many variables involved that it still remains an art form to adjust mouthpieces.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2011-05-04 18:58
With CNC machining, the real kind, you do get a flat table if a symmetrical model is used to program the CNC machine. A symmetrical model comes from measurements of an actual mouthpiece which for the most part is assymetrical in some areas and then a professional engineer does magical curve fitting techniques to make the CNC instructions symmetrical. If the CNC end mill is moved slowly and used with a coolant jet you can get a flat table with only microscopic swirling.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2011-05-04 19:03
Skygardener said "They all have a slight concavity in the table."
Kaspar was known to add one when it was not there. Other facers abhored a concavity, and removed it.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-05-04 20:39
My Opperman mouthpieces have absolutely flat tables. Kal said that putting any concavity in the table made the reed play well for a while but it quickly got worse as it warped to fit.
Instead, he told me to flatten the bottom whenever it warped even slightly.
The only exception was when he set up a 100 year old Buffet wood mouthpiece for me. He said he put in a bit of concavity to counteract swelling of the wood as it absorbed water.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2011-05-05 01:57
Going back to the original topic, sort of.
Look a the center tenon on new high-end Buffet's and look for chatter where they tried to save a nickel by pushing their cutter speed just a touch too fast.
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Author: Red Chair
Date: 2011-05-06 19:03
So if we can assume that leaving of marks on the rails and table is a sign of a lack of handfinishing, and on many of mouthpieces there is negligible work on the interior dimensions, why do they cost so much?
A zinner blank only costs around €40 and the amount of time many craftsmen are spending on pieces is obviously less then half an hour (if that in many cases), so why do all pay these increasingly high prices? Even taking into account store mark ups, if you do not buy direct, these prices are unacceptable in my mind.
My only thought is that this must be the clarinet version of the pharmaceutical industry where the cost of each pill is negligible, but the first one cost millions.
I would be intrigued for of the many mouthpiece makers who post here to help explain the pricing structure they use, especially when there is so little hand work completed on many pieces.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2011-05-06 20:08
I tried to reface a few old pieces.....It is amazing how many you can ruin just trying to flatten a table, realign some rails, etc.....let alone doing the inside work.
Expertice and experience counts for something! (If anyone thinks otherwise, I have a housepainter friend who is just itching to fix your aortic aneurysm ever since I told him how I do it.)
Disclaimer....I am a trained surgeon.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2011-05-06 20:09)
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Author: Red Chair
Date: 2011-05-06 20:38
250-350 dollars worth of expertise? With no hand finishing in some cases? Pushing the boat out surely
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2011-05-07 00:37
Red Chair,
I did not specify the amount that expertice should cost. Market forces will determine the additional fee for services such as mouthpiece facing.
It sounds like you have a specific maker in mind, but
no one is forcing you to buy anything from them.
Oh, and Red Chair....nice "real name." by the way. Kinda 'splains how the chair got to be crimson.
edited for clarity and syntax.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2011-05-07 01:28)
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-05-07 19:58
There is a story, perhaps apocryphal, about an expert in vibrations from MIT, called to help GE fix a very large generator that had a huge vibration problem.
He sat by the operating machine for several minutes, then called for a step ladder and a piece of chalk. He climbed the ladder and scribed an "X" on an access panel. The then told the technicians to open the panel and reverse the two wires behind it. That fixed the problem
When GE got the bill for $10,000 they thought that the amount was excessive and asked him for an itemized invoice. He responded as follows:
Knowing where to make mark $9,999
Making mark $1
Total $10,000
Bob Phillips
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Author: Red Chair
Date: 2011-05-07 20:58
A large part of the collection I own I was left as part of estate, so I have not personally bought them hence my interest in them . Ther previous owner had a rather varied taste in mouthpieces so there is wide selection.
'It sounds like you have a specific maker in mnd'
I do of course have makers in mind, mainly the ones I mentioned in my original post, I am very upfront about that. My issue is with the Smith (1 piece, a 1800+ serial number), Grabner and Backun pieces that are in my possesion.
It has been mentioned to watch a youtube clip of Morrie working with Ricardo (a blatant advert if there was one but I'm not here to argue Morrie's sales techniques). I would have no problem paying for that kind of service and his expertise. I have indeed sat with many makers and I never argued the price they charge. If you want one on one service you pay for it, if you don't want to pay don't go there in the first place.
My problem is that with the stock mouthpieces you can purchase from retailers by these makers you don't get even close to that level of craftsmanshi - in many cases these makers aren't even touching the pieces. You get just another piece that, in my mind has just been put out with enormous mark ups to make the makers money, not to further their craft or share their knowledge. At least with Smith you know he plays them so you get a level of expertise hopefully before it leaves his studio. Is Backun a player? I may be wrong, (and I hope I am) but I see no evidence of his ability as a performer for him to fall back on if he doesn't spend time on each individual piece. It appears to me to a crass money making exercise at the expense of craftsmanship.
Some will see this as an attack on makers, that is not my overall objective. My main objective is really to highlight that working one on one with a maker will give you a true idea of their talent and expertise and that buying off the shelf you have no idea what input hte maker has had and what is just what Mr Zinner provided them with in the first place. A name on the product does not mean it will be the same as the next one with the same name. I believe far too many makers are charging extortionate prices just because they can, so surely it is time we all woke up and stopped funding their lifestyles and got back to what is all about: having the best gear possible to enable your musical voice to be heard.
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Author: gwie
Date: 2011-05-07 22:34
> surely it is time we all woke up and stopped funding their lifestyles
> and got back to what is all about: having the best gear possible to
> enable your musical voice to be heard.
I hate to break it to you, but one doesn't get the best gear possible for free.
If those makers don't make any money, then they don't invest any of that money in furthering their craft, doing research, testing new materials, etc.
I'm not sure you've even bothered to actually look up any of the makers in question here, but most of them aren't living some life of luxury on some expensive yacht half the year due to their earnings from making mouthpieces.
Have you ever met any of the people that Morrie employs on his staff, a number whom are exceptional clarinet players and certainly have a good idea of how a mouthpiece should perform?
I'm very happy with the "off the shelf" results from Morrie, Walter, et. al. The thousands of students and other players who have not the time to invest in travelling to meet a maker, but can still appreciate what their work has yielded in a quality production-line mouthpiece probably agree!
You want doting, personalized service from an established, recognized, and talented maker? It's going to cost you more than a few hundred dollars then.
Get over it.
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Author: Red Chair
Date: 2011-05-07 23:14
gwie wrote:
> I hate to break it to you, but one doesn't get the best gear
> possible for free.
If you read my post properly, you will see I commend the one on one style of work which is not expensive, but not free. I don't want anything for free, I just don't want rubbish under the guise of quality.
>
> If those makers don't make any money, then they don't invest
> any of that money in furthering their craft, doing research,
> testing new materials, etc.
So that is justification for screwing us all over financially? The promise of clarinet gear utopia? Really?
> I'm not sure you've even bothered to actually look up any of
> the makers in question here, but most of them aren't living
> some life of luxury on some expensive yacht half the year due
> to their earnings from making mouthpieces.
Met, played with, drink with and hang out with many of them. They are all very comfortable, I don't know any craftsmen that is on the poverty line. Whenever I see the Backun team on the road for instance they are always staying in the finest hotels. I guess business must be rough.
> Have you ever met any of the people that Morrie employs on his
> staff, a number whom are exceptional clarinet players and
> certainly have a good idea of how a mouthpiece should perform?
Yep, met most of them. The ones I have met are not pro players and as a result always use the 'Ricardo' element to sell the product. There is never a mention from a Backun sales person that perhaps the gear isn't right for you. In their language you always sound better on their gear, and if you walk away it is only you that will be sorry. I agree they know how a Backun mouthpiece/barrel should sound, but from my experience they don't always know how to recognize the sound the player is searching for. I find their selling aggressive and insulting to many fine players. The product they are selling has a market and is at the top level a quality product but just like everything on the market, it isn't for everyone. It would be nice to hear that from one of the Backun team at the big events like the ICA etc. I believe if they were players this problem would be sorted out.
> I'm very happy with the "off the shelf" results from Morrie,
> Walter, et. al. The thousands of students and other players who
> have not the time to invest in travelling to meet a maker, but
> can still appreciate what their work has yielded in a quality
> production-line mouthpiece probably agree!
Well, as I stated I think you are being fooled by people who don't do as much as you most likely believe they do. The money you spent on your new mouthpiece off the shelf would have been better invested with time one on one with craftsmen like Backun, Smith, Grabner one on one where they hear your playing get your feedback and adjust your old piece accordingly with you there. Then you would have saved money and got a real personal service from talented individuals. They all travel widely and are easily contactable so being happy with off the shelf is a nice excuse for saying 'I'm too lazy to get better'
> You want doting, personalized service from an established,
> recognized, and talented maker? It's going to cost you more
> than a few hundred dollars then.
I don't believe that for a moment. One on one these guys don't cost the earth. Have you ever worked one on one with a mouthpiece craftsman? If you have you will know the prices they charge for personal time is very little in comparison to their off the shelf pieces, and if you have an old piece you want worked on you can save a fortune. Backun, Smith, Grabner, Livengood, Sayre, Fobes etc are all approachable guys who will try to help you out.
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2011-05-08 01:01
Same disclaimer.
If you have not spent any time with any of the named mouthpiece artisans you can not appreciate that what they do is an art form. I have spent hours with many of them and I am truly impressed with the talent and experience that they provide in making a mouthpiece. There are no mathematical models which can tell an unskilled person what to adjust because there are so many variables that go into making a mouthpiece work correctly that it takes a very experienced maker to do it right. Most of the named makers have decades of experience to make the right adjustments.
Reality would certainly suggest that if these makers did not make a product that players found to be good for them then they would not be in business for long would they? Many makers do get custom blanks made from Zinner, Babbitt, etc. for their particular approach to mouthpiece making that are not available to the public.
Why are there so many makers? -- because there are so many players with different approaches to playing and different ideas for their sound. If one maker was superior to all the others then there would be only one maker.
As with any business-- demand determines price and as I tell others, the car part is not the expensive part of fixing the car -- experienced labor does not come cheaply.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: gwie
Date: 2011-05-08 22:36
> So that is justification for screwing us all over financially?
Your claim here is absolutely absurd. None of the makers in question is forcing you to buy their product.
The value that these makers have individually added to the initial form of the product is what we pay for. If you can't possibly comprehend how that expertise might equal a few hundred dollars (regardless of how that final product is produced), then you're more than welcome to obtain the same kind of blanks and with whatever resources you put together, attempt to equal or exceed their results on your own and sell it for the price you believe is fair.
As they say, "put your money where your mouth is."
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Author: mihalis
Date: 2011-05-08 23:26
> So that is justification for screwing us all over financially?
Looking for that "perfect" mouthpiece, is forcing you to try and buy
allot of them, and that is very expensive.
I think is better and cheaper to buy a handmade to your
requirements and concentrate in making music.
I bought a Grabner k14 and I am in heaven.
I am bying a second same one "just in case".
Mike.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2011-05-09 12:38
So far, it seems that I am the only mouthpiece maker that has replied in this thread- I think the others are smarter than me.
This has been a total waste of time trying to have discourse with someone that feels he has all the answers while knowing very little.
At this point I withdraw all my posts from this thread and apologize for bringing other maker's names into this conversation.
-------
RC wrote Is Backun a player? I may be wrong, (and I hope I am) but I see no evidence of his ability as a performer for him to fall back on
I don't think I have seen many things as rude as this on this forum.
Post Edited (2011-05-10 14:04)
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