 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: yearsofwisdom
Date: 2011-04-17 18:31
My teacher is trying to sell me either her Hawkins B or her Triomphe Mouthpiece. Both seem to be used. She wants 300 for the Hawkins and 350 for the Triomphe. She says the Hawkins was faced when she got it and she had it refaced during a masterclass.... I don't know which to pick since she says both are good for me. I'm just concerned that they are used and won't last me very long....
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-04-17 18:49
$300 for the Hawkins? They retail for $210.
http://richardhawkinsmouthpiece.com/products.html
If your teacher is trying to unload it, the least she could do is discount it, not mark it up. When I got my Hawkins, I tried out three of them, and they played quite differently. If you're going to get a mouthpiece refaced, have it done to your specifications, not someone else's.
If my teacher was selling his personal Hawkins and it played well for me, I might pay $150 for it.
As far as longevity goes, though, I've been playing on my Hawkins B exclusively since 2002. Had it refaced once because I nicked one of the rails.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: yearsofwisdom
Date: 2011-04-17 20:04
Mmmm... well it was refaced during a masterclass so would that add more value and to David Shifrin's Specifications.
Post Edited (2011-04-17 20:05)
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2011-04-17 22:00
Who did the refacing? What kind of masterclass was it? I can't imagine refacing someone's mouthpiece during a masterclass, unless it was a class in mouthpiece craftsmanship/ What were these so called Shifrin specifications and where did they come from? I doubt that a Hawkins B could be refaced to match what I have seen David play in the past.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2011-04-17 22:05
Though I am personally no expert in mouthpieces, I would trust Mr. Grabner's wisdom on the subject. He knows whereof he speaks. He is a superb craftsman, and you could get ANY of his superbly crafted mouthpieces, BRAND NEW, for far less than your teacher is trying to sell those to you!
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
Post Edited (2011-04-17 22:06)
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-04-17 22:08
The setting of the refacing would hopefully have no bearing on the quality of the refacing, if the refacer is any good. I would suppose that doing it in a masterclass would likely only serve to diminish its quality due to distraction and/or time constraints. I wouldn't guess a masterclass setting to be a bonus.
When I say "to your specifications," I mean for you to personally be in contact with the technician, suggest what kind of sound/response you're looking for, then try it out, see how it's affected, and have it tweaked further from there. So that it matches YOU, not someone else.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2011-04-17 22:27
One other point... re the idea of the mouthpieces being "used and not lasting very long."
If a mouthpiece is made from quality materials, and has been faced (or refaced) properly, there is no reason to supect that it would not last a good, long time.
Many pros play on reworked Kaspars and Chedevilles that date anywhere from pre WW II to the early 1970s.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: Ed
Date: 2011-04-18 01:06
Play what you like, what feels most comfortable, what works best for you. If you are changing set ups, decide what your current mouthpiece does not give you and what you are looking to change/improve on.
Post Edited (2011-04-18 12:56)
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Author: yearsofwisdom
Date: 2011-04-18 01:14
It was a masterclass at Yale... My teacher attended... and it was refaced by Hawkins himself.
So what should i do? Buy the mouthpiece since my teacher says it's amazing or ???
Sorry, but i am only a high school student and I really don't know what to do.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-04-18 01:55
First of all, just because a mouthpiece is used doesn't mean it will "wear out". Most mouthpieces will last for many, many years no matter how many owners have played them. I think the one's your teacher is trying to sell you are over priced and may be good mouthpieces but not the best for you. Tell her that before you pay that much money for a mouthpiece you want to try a lot of different ones to see which is actually best for you. Chances are you will change mouthpieces several times over the years, many of have done that when we went to college and after if you continue to play. Also, just because the mouthpiece was refaced for her doesn't make it good for you. Go to some of the big on line stores and order several different mouthpiece to try on a trail basis so you have something to compare. You can ever try several of the type she's trying to sell you. It's tough when your teacher is trying to push a mouthpiece on you, she shouldn't be doing that in my opinion. Not an expensive one like those. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2011-04-18 02:53
At the risk of being unfair to you teacher, I'm going to expand on Ed's post.
Perhaps without realizing it, your teacher has opened a big can of worms. You (or your parents) pay her a fee to act (and should be able to expect her to act) in your best interest. Her offer to sell you equipment creates a conflict of interest because she has a personal financial stake in the outcome. If she is the one recommending the equipment, you can never be sure if her recommendation is motivated by a desire to do what's best for you (what we might hope for in a perfect world) or a desire for financial gain (what we find too often in the real world). Even if the price is a "fair" one, the conflict exists because she presumably prefers cash to the mouthpieces she has offered for sale and no matter how great she says (and, we hope thinks) the mouthpieces are, neither might be your best option, particularly at this time.
IMNSHO, there are only two situations where her behavior would be appropriate: (1) she offered the mouthpiece at a bargain price, i.e., a price considerably less than she could reasonably expect in an alternative sale, or (2) you were competent to evaluate the quality of the mouthpieces independent of her recommendation. Had she offered to sell you a mouthpiece at a bargain price or one that matched a bona fide offer she had already received, you could be reasonably confident that she was putting your interest above her own. By removing any hint of financial benefit to herself from the transaction, she could remove the conflict. On the other hand, if you were competent to evaluate the mouthpiece on your own, your decision would no longer be based primarily on her recommendation. She would be acting strictly as a seller, not your trusted teacher and there would be no conflict.
In this case, however, the teacher is recommending you buy a mouthpiece from her at a price that is possibly greater than her cost and almost certainly far greater than she could likely realize in an open-market sale. Alex has already given you the retail price for a new Hawkins mouthpiece -- one that you could have tailored to your needs, not David Shifrin's. At Weiner Music, a new Bay Artiste Modele de Triomphe sells for $275. (Note, however, that Weiner shows a "compare at" price of $375 so it's possible your teacher may have paid that much if, e.g., she bought the mouthpiece directly from Bay.) On eBay, used mouthpieces from "custom" makers such as Hawkins, Bay, Greg Smith, Fobes, Grabner, Pyne, Lomax and even occasionally Backun typically bring about 50% of their original list price or less. The fact that the Hawkins mouthpiece has been refaced to David Shifrin's standards (preferences) is, at best, irrelevant. Walter Grabner's comments on that point are spot on. The mouthpiece might actually be worse for you than when it left Hawkins' workshop and it is no longer one of his standard models, making its characteristics more difficult to describe should you decide to sell it.
Apparently, you don't have the experience/expertise to evaluate the value of these mouthpieces on your own or you wouldn't be asking the Board this question. Some on this Board may eventually suggest that, if the mouthpiece is ideal for you, it is worth what your teacher is asking. The problem is that neither we nor (apparently) you have any way of knowing if the mouthpiece is truly ideal -- we only have your teacher's recommendation and, distasteful as it may seem, we have to consider the possibility that her primary motivation here is to unload an unwanted mouthpiece without taking a loss (and indeed possibly showing a profit).
Frankly, if I had carried your teacher's proposal home to my father when I was in high school, not only would he have refused to buy the mouthpiece, he would probably have fired the teacher. In fairness, your teacher may honestly believe that her asking price is fair. She may not see why she should suffer a financial loss to provide you with a mouthpiece that she truly believes is a good one (though apparently not good enough for her to play) for you. She may have never even thought about the special position of trust she holds as your teacher. She may see nothing wrong in trying to recover what she paid for the mouthpieces. No one likes to take a loss. But she shouldn't be trying to recover their cost from you. And, again IMNSHO, you shouldn't subsidize her bad purchase decisions and, given she is your teacher, it really isn't proper of her to ask her to.
It seems to me, from your comments, that you are uncomfortable with the prices she is asking and, perhaps with her selections as well. In this case, I think your instincts are good. Even if her motives are pure, her prices are IMO quite unreasonable. I wonder whether you are ready for a $300+ mouthpiece at your current stage of development. I also wonder (because you haven't told us) how much effort she made to find a less expensive alternative, e.g., a Vandoren, that she didn't have for sale. (The answer to that question might speak volumes to the purity of her intentions.) I know of many teachers who keep a drawer of common mouthpieces for students to try when the time is right. If a student finds a mouthpiece that works, the student then orders a similar mouthpiece from an independent seller or the teacher may simply give it to the student. That's the right way to do it.
Bottom line. I recommend you not buy a mouthpiece from your teacher. Further, and this is more difficult, if you and your parents feel she has tried to take advantage of her position of trust for her own financial benefit (and only you and your parents are in a position to make that evaluation), then you should consider a new teacher.
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2011-04-18 02:57)
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Author: yearsofwisdom
Date: 2011-04-18 03:36
My teacher is highly respected and a principal player for a major symphony. We had agreed that I was good enough to move onto a custom made mouthpiece after i had used my Vandoren M30 for over 4 years and it has certainly warped. I wasn't getting the control or the resistance i needed. We decided that it was best for me to move onto a custom made one. I have tried 10-15 of her custom made ones ranging from Charles Bay Models to the Pyne and she said that i sounded the best on the Hawkins....
I trust her judgement on sound and tone for sure but i am just skeptical about the price...
Post Edited (2011-04-18 03:40)
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Author: Clarimeister
Date: 2011-04-18 05:12
Then... I would recommend going through Hawkins' site and try some out from him. He and Gregory Smith have THE best trial offer for their mouthpieces not costing an arm for trial fees. The price she's charging though is ridiculous. Too high. Especially since Hawkins sells the same mouthpiece for about $90 less from his site.
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2011-04-18 06:16
<...i had used my Vandoren M30 for over 4 years and it has certainly warped>
Strange at least. I had a Vandoren which I used for 6 years and I only changed it because I find another better, but as I remember when I finally put it down it had the same sound and control like when I bought it.
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Author: Elifix
Date: 2011-04-18 13:08
I think try more mouthpieces. Whatever brand from where ever you can get hold of them (without burning too much $$).
We don't know how you sound like with mouthpiece A or mouthpiece B but since your teacher says that you sound best on a reworked mouthpiece A and you trust her, why not try brand new mouthpiece from the seller or maker itself? Maybe it will be better? Maybe more ex or cheaper?
In short, don't limit yourself to your teacher but try more. In my opinion, getting the Mouthpiece re-surfaced by a top maker or whoever should not cause the price to rocket higher since it was redone and increase according to personal specs. If it was redone and mouthpiece is more tuned in an increase of quality on the mouthpiece itself for average than maybe more
$$$ is a value...
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2011-04-18 13:31
Have you considered sending the "warped" M30 to a refacing artist?
Or, better yet, visiting with one?
It appears you live in CT.
If you are within travelling distance, the overall expense might be less than the other options that you mentioned.
For example, Mr Clark Fobes was just in NYC holding forth for clients in a downtown hotel. I know Chris Hill has made "mouthpiece tours"
Krass is in northern NJ. Others might visit conservatories in New England or NY State.
Something to consider.
Edit: Added about 2 hrs later.......You are approx. 97 mi. from NYC...ie, the Vandoren Store, etc. . Perhaps a rail trip --one days round trip travel-- could net you a great usable mouthpiece, maybe even a session with a visiting facing artist, or a lesson with a disinterested (but not uninterested) teacher who could listen with a discerning ear. You are also close to New Haven
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2011-04-18 16:44)
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Author: William
Date: 2011-04-18 14:38
FWIW--I have been alternating between a Chicago Kaspar (bought in 1959) and a Charles Bay from 1970. Neither has been refaced nor has either "worn out". Mouthpieces will last indefinately if taken care of.
Also, fwiw, I think your teacher is charging too much for those mouthpieces. Consider having your M30 refaced. It was probably made from the same blank (Zinner) that most mouthpieces are currently made from--including the Hawkins and the Bay. Mouthpieces that have extrodinary current "value" are often made from old stock Chedeville blanks like my early Bay and Chicago Kaspar and even many of those old pieces are not worth the money in terms of playing quality. I play my old Kaspar because it works for me, not because somebody else said it was good. You should make the same decision for yourself and not rely so much on your "major symphony" teacher. Ask some of your musician friends what you sound best on and try as many mouthpieces as you can find. You should be able to find a "good" used one for considerably less than your teacher is asking.
I would also second the recommendation for trying mouthpieces from Gregory Smith, Walter Grabner or Clark Fobes. Each will send you mouthpieces to try and work with you until you find "the one". And they all are personally very good clarinetists who know when their product is right.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-04-18 14:58
You said you tried 10-15 of her custom made mouthpieces, that's a lot of "custom made" mouthpieces to own. If you really did try that many you should know which one is best for you at this time in your life and if you really feel it's worth the price then buy it because you're caught between a rock and a hard place, as the saying goes. When I taught at conservatory I always stocked over a dozen mouthpieces from Vandorens to customs and had my students try them all. Once we both decided which one was best I sold them to them at the price I paid for them. Not a penny more. Good luck, ESP
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2011-04-18 19:45
Eddie has it right. The "not a penny more" approach is the correct one. As soon as you start to make money on a sale, your objectivity is blown.
I sell mouthpieces and I teach students. I am very careful in my teaching not to force my students to buy my mouthpieces. Some of them try them and buy them, others sound quite good on their own equipment and I do not try to "convert" them. Thus I avoid compromising the ethics of the situation.
So, my advice is to sidestep this sale and ask to try a variety of mouthpieces from various makers.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
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Author: yearsofwisdom
Date: 2011-04-18 20:26
I see... The problem is that i can't tell what sounds good and doesn't..... That's my main concern when i try mouthpieces that i can't tell what sounds good. Also my teacher mentions that your muscles obviously adapt and you will need to get reeds that fit it best for the best sound.
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2011-04-18 22:25
What major symphony is in Connecticut?
I assume she doesn't play in Boston or New York since those orchestras have male principals.
I think I do know who your teacher is, and while I believe she is a very good teacher, she also is not above making a profit from her students.
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Author: srattle
Date: 2011-04-18 23:04
I would agree with a lot of other people here, and suggest that you try getting your Vandoren mouthpiece refaced by someone respected.
If you have something custom done for you, then it is more likely to be suited for you than the ones your teacher has.
Also, if you know what feels good for you (you say you need a certain resistance and flexibility) then I'm sure you can find something that gives you those, but doesn't cost $300. That is the price for a very top of the line mouthpiece, and knowing that you will definitely evolve in your playing to need something different than what you need right now, maybe you don't need to spend so much.
Have you thought about trying some of the other vandoren mouthpieces? Maybe even another M30 that isn't 'warped'? Have you also tried just changing reeds? Going up or down a strength? That can also make a huge difference.
I personally think that your teacher is not being particularly honest with this sale, if a Hawkins is $210 new. Would she also sell you a used car for more than market value, because she got the seats re-apolstered?
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Author: yearsofwisdom
Date: 2011-04-19 00:46
Good point and to protect her identity, she plays with David Shifrin currently. And i am in no way saying she is dishonest or a bad person!!! I respect her highly and im sure if i tell her the issue, she will listen. Please do not let my one case be a testament to her normal activity.
And how much better COULD a custom one be compared to just a Vandoren B40-Lyre that i think could possibly give me the resistance and control i need?
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2011-04-19 01:48
I certainly agree with most of the comments above. When I resell a mouthpiece to a student I'm not looking to profit: I already have the student coming each week and moving along successfully if they're considering a top notch mouthpiece.
Yearsofwisdom: you have mentioned that you're not sure what you're hearing and what to listen for. You have also clearly invested some lesson time trying all these mouthpieces. Why not take the mouthpiece selection process a step further and increase your understanding? Ask your teacher to record you playing the mouthpieces, and then listen and discuss exactly what she likes and dislikes...and determine whether you agree.
In this manner you're not just shelling out cash for something someone else says will help you (even when you respect their opinion!). This will certainly not be the last mouthpiece you buy -- learn from the process and determine what you want the sound and feel to be for you.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: yearsofwisdom
Date: 2011-04-19 02:00
That's a good idea actually.... I think i may want to stop dealing with mouthpieces... I actually tried the Selmer HS Double Star. I don't know how i sounded on it but i really like the feeling of it. Is this a professional grade/custom mouthpiece and how is it? Also how much is a reasonable range for prices?
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Author: Ed
Date: 2011-04-19 03:58
FWIW- I have seen the Bays new at $275.
If your M30 is indeed warped, you could get it refaced easily enough.
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Author: Elifix
Date: 2011-04-19 11:52
I think Tobin's suggestion of recording your playing on different mouthpiece, listening to it and discussing it with your teacher is very good.
IMO, it ultimately depends on what you like and what you prefer. Your teacher's ideal sound might not be the one that you like or wish to attain. Since you mentioned that you are not sure what is good or what isn't, perhaps have you envisioned a sound quality that you want to possess in your playing? If you know what you want as a clarinet timbre, then perhaps looking for a mouthpiece / instrument / thingys that helps you attain that result is another direction that u can consider from?
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2011-04-19 13:02
I don't understand the assumption people have that vandorens warp after a few years without any proof. I've measured some very old and well used vandorens and haven't found much, if any, evidence of this.
Unless you were really hard on your mouthpiece, or damaged it in some way, the odds are that you changed, not the mouthpiece.
If you're in high school, I would seriously hope that you changed a lot in 4 years!!!
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Author: yearsofwisdom
Date: 2011-04-19 19:46
True, it may very well be the case. However, i have been rough on the mouthpiece but either way, i lack the control and resistance i need.
I actually tried the Selmer HS Double Star. I don't know how i sounded on it but i really like the feeling of it?(if that makes any sense). Is this a professional grade/custom mouthpiece and how is it? Also how much is a reasonable range for prices?
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2011-04-19 21:02
Believe me, if your teacher thought that either of those mouthpieces were really good, she wouldn't be selling them.
Ask Richard Hawkins to send you a bunch of mouthpieces to try, and compare them with the one your teacher is trying to sell. Try some other mouthpieces too.
If you aren't able to judge the difference, or hear it when you record yourself, then you're really not ready to spend 300+ on a mouthpiece.
By the way, many of the worlds best clarinet players use non-custom mouthpieces (eg. a Vandoren that they've picked out for themselves). So high price doesn't necessarily mean high quality.
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Author: Elifix
Date: 2011-04-19 21:36
The pricing wise, I suggest looking at various retail shops / online websites. I am not too sure about Selmer mps, hopefully someone else can help you.
Sorry!
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2011-04-20 00:01
Selmer mouthpieces are machine made similar to Vandorens. I don't know if there is any hand finishing at the end of production or not. I suspect not. The HS** has been in Selmer's product line for 60-70 years or longer. The characteristic that has defined the HS** is a facing that incorporates a medium open tip with a medium length facing, giving it a bit of resistance. However, over the years, its design has changed a number of times and HS**s from different eras will probably play quite differently for you. Mouthpieces from the periods when Selmer made the Balanced Tone, Centered Tone and Series 9 model clarinets (roughly the 1940s into the 1960s), were designed to work with them. Because those instruments had fairly large bores, the exit bore of the mouthpiece was larger than mouthpieces made for smaller-bored clarinets like Buffets. I have never been able to make a Selmer mouthpiece from that period work with a Buffet clarinet but other people seem to do just fine. YMMV. Since the 1960s-70s, however, Selmer has been producing smaller bore clarinets and the mouthpiece has been modified accordingly.
The one you tried was probably a fairly recent one, perhaps with HS** stamped on the back of the mouthpiece. That version has actually been replaced even more recently by the Model 201HS2. From the pictures, I've seen, it does not appear actually to be stamped HS** anywhere but that's what it is. I see these listed at Woodwind & Brasswind, Amazon and Mouthpiece Express for $119 new. Each different design will likely play a little different for you and, even within a particular design, there will probably be variations so the fact that you liked one may mean that you'll like others or it may not. You'll just have to try some out if you want to know for sure.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: yearsofwisdom
Date: 2011-04-20 04:14
I have no doubt in my mind that they are great mouthpieces.... As i said before, she has 15-20 custom mouthpieces and i think another 4-5 Pynes lying around....I think i will consider just trying abunch of b-40 13 Lyres... I hear that will give me better control and resistance.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2011-04-20 15:09
I was just looking up the speco fo the Hawkins B model, and it is vastly different from a VD B40. The B40 is much more open and resistant than the Hawkins. If the Hawkins is soiunding like a possibility, th eVD would nbe vastly different. Why, out of curiosity, do you feel that the Vandoren would be a good choice for you?
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: yearsofwisdom
Date: 2011-04-24 00:29
Well i heard the vandoren gives alot more control and resistance than my current mouthpiece which is the m30...i really am at a loss to what i do.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2011-04-24 01:29
"Well i heard the vandoren gives alot more control and resistance than my current mouthpiece which is the m30...i really am at a loss to what i do."
What you don't seem to be doing is your own research. You know what the mouthpieces your teacher is trying to sell you sound like, so now go to a dealer and test-play a bunch of other mouthpieces, Vandoren, whatever. If you're not sure what you sound like, take a recorder of some sort, or a friend who's opinion you trust. Do you have a clear idea of what sound you're trying to achieve?
I have an assortment of Selmer HS*'s and **'s from different periods, and believe me, they are inconsistent. They do seem to work best with larger bore instruments. It's possible to get too focussed on the choice of mouthpiece. You'll probably never find the perfect one, but that's what technique is about. Getting the best result from the available equipment.
Tony F.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2011-04-24 03:23
Quote:
Well i heard the vandoren gives alot more control and resistance than my current mouthpiece which is the m30...i really am at a loss to what i do.
To be honest, you need to stop asking questions and go find some answers for yourself. A BB such as this is a great resource, but it cannot answer all questions. It is only a starting point. Years ago a colleague of mine who was studying horn with the legendary Myron Bloom asked Bloom who he had studied with. Bloom replied "I studied with myself" His point was that each of us spends far more time alone in a practice room than with a teacher and that each of us needs to solve our own problems.
Some thoughts-
I am concerned that you have mentioned that you cannot tell what sounds good. IF that is truly the case, it sounds to me as if you need to spend some time listening and practicing and develop a concept of tone. Trust your teacher- isn't that what you are paying for? If not, go to someone you do trust.
Try your mouthpiece with different reeds. Play a bunch of mouthpieces with a box of new reeds. Find one that seems workable and then go practice. A mouthpiece or barrel or any other equipment cannot solve every problem. One can spend way too much time looking for equipment rather than playing. The better you play, the less the equipment matters. Make a decision and live with it. After a couple of years if you find something better, then move on.
FWIW- In my opinion the M30 has plenty of resistance. I would prefer to have a mouthpiece that is relatively free and then tailor the feel with the reeds I choose.
Good luck.
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