 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-03-26 05:46
I do TONS of looking, responding, lurking, whatever on this board. And I ask questions to other clarinetists I run into. And it seems that cocobolo seems to be overwhelmingly be the wood of choice for barrels.
Has anyone else seemed to notice this? Alseg, Morrie, or other barrel makers? And if this is the case, has anyone tried cocobolo clarinets or is very skewed to grenadilla barrels when testing against cocobolo? Just seems that over the past few years and from thread after thread after thread, cocobolo may be a better wood for us clarinetists. Would it even stand as an entire clarinet? Just curious. I have a barrel (cocobolo) that makes a big difference in my sound, and I'm wondering what others think about this.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: curiousclarinetist
Date: 2011-03-26 06:15
Cocobolo definitely seems to produce a more covered tone. Seeing as that's where the clarinet sound seems to be evolving, I would say that is what most people are looking for. I fear that too many people are obsessed over "darkening" their sound and are doing things that end up making the sound dead instead of more mellow.
I play cocobolo barrels and bells. I think they are a good match to my instruments which are naturally very brilliant. The cocobolo helps balance them out to a place that I like.
It really comes down to what you want in your sound. Always trust your ears. They are worth more than the opinions of others.
Morrie Backun makes cocobolo versions of his new clarinets. A lot of the difference when it comes to barrels comes more from the taper than the kind of wood. At least, in my experience.
Curious Clarinetist
http://curiousclarinetist.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Curious-Clarinetist/155848744465821
Post Edited (2011-03-26 06:17)
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Author: kilo
Date: 2011-03-26 09:17
I'm holding off until Buffet markets a cocobolo composite option for their GreenLine instruments.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2011-03-26 10:04
FWIW, I prefer grenadilla. Among all of the players I know, I don't have any colleagues or friends who play cocobolo.
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Author: charla
Date: 2011-03-26 11:48
I have six cocobolo fat boy barrels from Morrie Backun to test. As an older player without an abundance of air, they're a perfect solution. Nice full tone without a lot of effort. My biggest problem is deciding which ones to send back...several are wonderful in different ways. My favorite fits a little loose on the clarinet, but I think recorking will take care of that. Compared to my Buffet Moennig barrel the Backuns are in a totally different league in terms of sound and ease of playing.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2011-03-26 12:10
I have a pretty strong suspicion that the main reason for making custom barrels of cocobolo has nothing to do with the sound quality and everything to do with the fact that the unusually conspicuous, colorfully striped wood makes a good advertisement for the manufacturer. When the rest of the clarinet is plain old grenadilla, it's strikingly obvious that the barrel is a custom job. People who notice it will naturally ask, "Where did you get...? and "How do you like...?" If the custom barrel were plain black, chances are most of us wouldn't notice it.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: DNBoone
Date: 2011-03-26 12:30
I tried a bunch of the Cocobolo barrels and Grenadilla ones recently. The Grenadilla were better than the Cocobolo, but nothing beat my stock leblanc on my Opus.
But it does seem all the people I know with them use coco. Not one of them has the grenadilla ones.
I have been told when Leblanc gets around to getting their clarinet line straightened out, they may have clarinets and even bass clarinets in cocobolo though.
Post Edited (2011-03-26 12:31)
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2011-03-26 13:57
Disclaimer.....I make barrels of many types of wood.
Here are some observations:
There is considerable overlap between the characteristics for both types of wood. There can be clear-sounding, colorful, dull, stuffy, resonant barrels in any category.....even with the same internal dimensions, and even external dimensions. Overall, some folks seem to PERCEIVE cocobolo having a warmer sound and grenadilla (a misnomer for the wood....really it should be called blackwood) as clearer and more projective.
The trick for the artisan is to offer what the client wants, either by offering a selection, or , if the artisan is a smaller shop, creating just a few specific units one at a time to match what the client wants to achieve.
What amazes me most is that some clients will specify and enjoy a certain configuration of barrel from me (eg. no taper, natural light hardwood, ringless but traditional shape), , but also enjoy the entirely opposite configuration from another artisan (eg steep taper, dark wood, hefty, with rings).
Conclusion: Considerable overlap is the norm--in barrels and in people's perceptions.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: clarin-ed
Date: 2011-03-26 14:36
For me, cocobolo barrels worked better (after having compared around 10–both blackwood and cocobolo–before purchasing). But at least for Backun barrels, there was much variance between makes and models, and I found that some blackwood ones performed better than cocobolo (corresponding with what Dr. Segal said).
Just like with all other equipment, I guess it's wise to try out models with an unbiased ear (neither swaying towards traditional blackwood or the color of cocobolo).
Oh, and Backun has made custom models entirely out of cocobolo. I have never had the opportunity to try or hear one, but I know some pros who own them.
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2011-03-26 15:31
The material is secondary to acoustic design. This is something that should be emphasized each time we go into a discussion about what is the best choice in making the horn out of. Ridenour ebonite horn, and of course his barrel, play pleasantly now that I think of it.
Ultimately, the horn that one accepts make the sound that one desires, no less than that. I personally see it as a matter of craftsmanship and aesthetics when reaching a secondary justification towards leaning over Rosewood. This is my anecdotal findings I have come to feel after having played on Patricola's rosewood horn and having played with a few cocobolo barrels.
I am however biased towards rosewood, due to the level of care that is needed in machining it. Seeing a cocobolo instrument without lining at least serves as some indication of the maker's abilities.
Post Edited (2011-03-26 15:56)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-03-26 16:16
Kalmen Opperman made me barrels of grenadilla, cocus and boxwood. The boxwood one is definitely sweeter and less powerful than the others. I currently use a ringless cocus barrel.
Kal told me that he once made a barrel from oak, which had the best sound he ever heard, but it warped so fast that he had to touch it up every half hour.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2011-03-26 16:32
Ken, I tried oak......failure. Rosewood requires different dimension in the sockets or it wobbles. Kingwood is more stable, but a less colorful sound.
The oboists favor it, because they too seem to have gone over to the dark side of tonal coloration .
So who here can predict what http://test.woodwind.org/Classifieds/detail.html?cat=72&de=3860***
would sound like, for example? It has a twin of nearly identical size, weight, heft, but with a standard Moennig taper instead of a Juggernaut taper. Would that one play the same?
****I made the item available for show as an example for 48hrs, as mentioned in the classified. I just now deleted it per arrangement after that amount of time.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2011-03-28 01:08)
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2011-03-26 18:41
(Disclaimer - I make Chedeville rod rubber barrels)
I would agree that the taper of any barrel trumps the material because I have tested a bunch of tapers for the rod rubber barrels over several years before a test panel finally agreed on a couple of "best" tapers. These tapers are different than most tapers used on wood and tapers may also vary by maker and on the wood itself.
IMO the material does make a difference in the sound because my test panel, all using their own best wooden barrels, indicates that rubber has a different sound when selecting their best rubber taper. Again, it is perception and your ear and personal sound so this is the old materials discussion on a different piece of hardware.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: Wes
Date: 2011-03-26 19:28
Paul Laubin was quoted as saying that the best sounding oboes were those made of Honduran Rosewood. However, most of his oboes appear to be grenadilla while some are rosewood. I also recall that he went into some kind of cardiac arrest while machining rosewood from breathing the dust.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-03-26 20:49
Allan -
What's a Juggernaut taper, compared with a Moennig or Chadash taper.
Kal Opperman made his barrels with a wasp waist, tapering down from the top and then expanding slightly at the bottom.
Loree offers oboes that have the upper joint made of plastic. They charge extra for it. Before he switched to Yamaha, Richard Woodhams played one in Philadelphia.
Oboes have two tiny trill keys at the top of the upper joint. Grenadilla is infamous for cracking between them. It happens so often that John de Lancie always brought a second oboe on stage to pick up if his regular one cracked.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-03-27 03:46
The main problem with coco barrels is that the black shoe polish you apply to them so that you don't look like a geek rubs off on your shirt.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2011-03-27 05:11
Ken, that one answer is best conveyed privately.
Check your email.
The wasp waist configuration you mention is famously used by one barrel maker I know, and it is very projective. One of my customers insists on it, and sent me one to copy and then tweak my own version.
The exit is, however, not as wide as the entry.
Bob...maybe you should consider BriWax(R) ebony polish
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2011-03-27 13:57)
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Author: Clarimeister
Date: 2011-03-27 05:34
Around these boards, yeah cocobolo may be the choice. However, to my observations and to what my professors and teachers' observations are, there aren't that many professional clarinet players using cocobolo or fancy dandy barrels. Now before I get flamed, I never said no professionals don't use it. I'm sure there are plenty. But, if you look at orchestral professional musicians like in the LA Phil, OCPS, New York Phil, Chicago Symph, I don't notice any of those players playing on special third party barrels unless they're chadash or moennig really. Just my observation. But, in reality, it's all preference. This is another reason why the clarinet is so awesome. It's one of the only instruments with so many different accessories you can change out to fit your preference of sound!
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-03-27 16:24
Alseg: (-; I've tried clear Briwax, and it's tough to use --maybe easier if you can spin it on a lathe!
I had a red barrel that played and sounded fabulous, but it had 40-cent wide 12 ths
Bob Phillips
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Author: CocoboloKid
Date: 2011-03-27 16:40
I played on a pair of cocobolo Howarth clarinets for years (though I've since switched back to Leblanc, which I've played since I was a teenager), and they were the warmest sounding, most lovely clarinets I've ever played, but I had to stop using them because they were English bore and I just could not blend with the (ick) mostly Buffet sections I was playing in. They were also aesthetically extremely stunning to look at.
I use Backun barrels and bells and a Segal barrel on all my clarinets, and my bells are all cocobolo, but only one of the barrels I use most often is cocobolo, the rest are grenadilla. The grenadilla just seems to offer a bit more power in the sound, but it could just be me.
Wes, the Laubin incident you referred to involved cocobolo, not rosewood. The dust from cocobolo wood can trigger severe allergic reactions in some people.
Clarimeister, the entire clarinet section of the Metropolitan Opera and Philadelphia Orchestras might beg to differ with you...
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Author: Clarimeister
Date: 2011-03-27 17:23
And again, I never said no professional uses cocobolo. Read my entire post please.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2011-03-27 19:34
Bob......I was joking about BriWax. Since I do not stain my barrel wood, I have no great information to impart. Now, if you want info. on my mahagony bookcase project, well that is another story.
I can not comment on your wide twelfths since I do not know the interior dimensions of your barrel, who made it, or why it is "red." (does it glow?)
Those are the things custom makers ask when preparing to make a specific barrel.
Cocobolokid....yes, severe allergies can arise while working with the stuff. Fortunately, after sealing and polishing, there is no problem. I wear a respirator mask and coverall smock when working with all woods.
Paduak is the worst........it has spores inside.
Sflaxei..... I just found the pile of correspondence we had offline. I guess you are still cogitating. There is only one way to find out for yourself coco is for you....Nestle and Hershey make a nice variety, even with a military discount.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2011-03-27 23:35)
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-03-28 15:48
Alseg,
I don't think that BriWax is "off topic," as I did try to use it to create a hydrophillic detour around my C#/G# tone hole and reported here without raising the ire of our venerated moderators that it is hard to use and doesn't last very long.
My mahogany finishes require a whole lot of filler days and days before bringing out the Bri - or -other -wax.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2011-03-28 20:59
What I was referencing in BriWax is the type that comes with added color.
There is a formulation of ebony briwax that looks like it would color mpingo and other woods...but in actuality, it is a touchup solution at best.
It will NOT stain any lighter wood to look like mpingo. Even true commercial oil based ebony-colored stains fail to color lighter woods enough to pass for mpingo.
Some clarinet makers use something akin to ink.
What do I use? answer....none.....the wood is unstained. I use natural wax and only natural wax. A proprietary blend.
Internally I use a sealant....my own formulation, sometimes with a bit of color that wears off. The color shows me what I need to see in the sockets.....it is not cosmetic, more of an indicator.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2011-03-28 22:02)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-03-28 23:11
Mpingo often has white areas at the center. I'd actually like to have a barrel with a white streak. Just call me Susan Sontag.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2011-03-28 23:30
......OR pepe le pew
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2011-03-29 00:31)
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2011-03-29 01:23
I don't think Cocobolo is the standard.
Many people do use cocobolo though. Most who use it are going for something "warmer", "darker", more "round", or something along those lines. There's probably a correlation between these tendencies with cocobolo and many clarinetists wanting to go for a darker sound.
In my experience, the added "resonance" people seem to feel with cocobolo doesn't translate to resonance in the hall. Many times it seems to make the sound more diffuse and less focused.
If you took 100 university\conservatory teachers and orchestral players, I doubt you would get a majority using cocobolo barrels.
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Author: Paul Miller
Date: 2011-03-29 01:34
Carey Bell is using a set of cocobolo Backun MOBAs... Dave is using Buffet-Chadash barrels and Luis is using grenadilla Fobes barrels. It's the most mixed-up equipment I've ever seen in a section, but damn it works well - Material does matter, but as mentioned above, acoustic design is much more important.
I have a Backuninzed Eb, using a tulipwood barrel and bell. Compared with the cocobolo and grenadilla versions, the tulipwood does make a substantial difference in the sound - but again, if it wasn't a good acoustic design in the first place it wouldn't work at all.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-03-29 01:39
But I think the use of cocobolo tends to occur in clusters geographically - a major player starts to use cocobolo equipment (especially bells and barrels) and lots of others follow suit. So players who see cocobolo in their area may tend to see a lot of it and may think it's the main thing going.
Karl
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Author: Morrie Backun
Date: 2011-03-29 15:03
Clarimeister,
Just to set the record straight. Players in orchestras you mentioned do have and use Backun and MOBA equipment. (In Chicago and in the NY Philharmonic among the ones you mentioned) They are also used by many world class soloists, teachers and orchestral players around the world.
That does not mean the products are for you. I always encourage players to try everything possible to find what is best for them. That is precisely the reason we use various woods and styles , as no one species or design is ideal for everything.
I would also remind everyone that wood is a "product of nature" and every piece will respond a little differently.
Happy Clarinetting!
Morrie Backun
Backun Musical Services
604-205-5770
morrie@backunmusical.com
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Author: Chris2787
Date: 2013-01-13 05:28
Morrie I absolutely love your bells and barrels! I have cocobolo for both my Bb and Eb clarinet bells and barrels. It changed the sound of my clarinet instantly! I thank you for making such phenomenal items available to the clarinet community! Keep up the great work. I hope to one day get a cocobolo clarinet!
Cheers,
Christopher Ljucovic RN, CCMA,EMT-B
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Author: Wes
Date: 2013-01-13 21:03
The barrels that Buffet supplies with their new clarinets work great. I also like the black look with silver rings. I also see few players with anything but black barrels, except at the clarinet conventions.
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Author: blazian
Date: 2013-01-15 12:49
When I was in high school I was encouraged to try so many accessories to sound better. I've tried many mouthpieces, barrels, reeds, ligatures, and clarinets. My teacher at my university is completely the opposite. He uses the stock barrel and bell, standard Vandorens, and an M45, all to great effect. I came into my first lesson with my Fobes Nova and my rosewood Gao Classical and he basically asked me, "What do you need those for?"
Echoing what is said by Wes, I do think that Buffet has a good standard for their barrels. I find that now I can achieve my preferred sound using my all-stock Festival.
- Martin
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