 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Dan Paprocki
Date: 2011-03-18 15:21
Check out this story:
http://www.omaha.com/article/20110316/LIVEWELL01/703169779/1161
Maybe this makes us super immune.
Dan
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-03-18 15:56
The YUK factor is nothing new, just makes us a special breed, but it is pretty disgusting isn't it? What doesn't kill us just makes us stronger. By the way, that kid has a lousy embouchure, that's a lot more serious than the germs.
ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2011-03-18 16:06
Not to mention that the pictured instrument isn't even a clarinet.
What format does Ethylen oxide come in? How would you use it to sterilize/sanitize the entire instrument?
The fact that so many of us and even more of our students are walking the earth disease-free says volumes about the practical meaning of studies like this. Did they test the school desks the kids use? The textbooks that get reassigned year after year (wherever they still use them)? The computer keyboards and mice in their classrooms and school libraries (not to mention public libraries)? The are micro-organisms everywhere and if our immune systems couldn't normally handle them the human race would have become extinct millenia ago if it had every developed in the first place.
Karl
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2011-03-18 17:11
Doing a quick check on Google, as a retired Chemistry and Biology instructor, I think I would prefer to take my chances with the bacteria, mold, etc. Maybe you could get a local hospital to run your instrument through with other equipment that cannot be autoclaved. The MSDS for Ethylene Oxide would explain why I have not run across it in the public school system (though I did get to clean out what a purchasing agent at the time of Sputnik thought we should have on hand -- one of everything in the chemical catalog).
Maybe one of us could get rich by selling UV bore lights. What would a set up look like for treating a sousaphone? My local repair shop has a king sized ultrasonic cleaner that does quite nicely for brass instruments (yes, up to and including a sousaphone).
Note: The writer of the article spelled Ethylene Oxide incorrectly by leaving off the final e.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-03-18 17:37
> Not to mention that the pictured instrument isn't even a clarinet.
Sure is. A bass, to be precise.
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Ben
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2011-03-18 17:42
"The researchers found 442 different bacteria...."
442? Must have been European-pitched instruments. ![[rotate]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley25.gif)
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2011-03-18 18:00
Oh, I suppose it is a bass mouthpiece. My first impression was that it was a tenor sax. <shrugs>
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-03-18 18:14
I thought brass instruments would harbour more bacteria and mould considering they rarely clean them after playing - only emptying the water and back in the case with them as opposed to taking them apart and drying the bore.
Or could the copper content of the brass (the bore won't be lacquered) be a factor in the lower levels of bacteria?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2011-03-18 18:25
But what will Ethylene Oxide do for my sound? And will it prevent cracks? And acne?
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-03-18 22:12
The embouchure at http://www.agd.org/publications/issue/?PubID=17 looks a bit better, though underdeveloped.
They claim to let you read the current issue, but the link takes you to a signup page. Are there any dentists here who subscribe?
I've seen petty disgusting clarinets, where kids have never run a swab through, but as my old teacher Jay Craven said when he handed me his clarinet, "Give it a try. The worst thing I'll give you is diphtheria."
Now bassoon bocals. . . .
Ken Shaw
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2011-03-19 08:36
Wonderful!!
Let's give various BOEs even one more reason to cut music from the program!
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2011-03-19 17:24
Of course, if you read the article carefully, it says that they found "442 different bacteria". It does not say that they found 442 different varieties of bacteria. 442 different bacteria from that many samples is pretty darn clean!
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-03-19 18:40
Yeah, but amongst those 442 was a couple (in heat!) of the hitherto unknown species Campylobacter Arundoacensis. (Its existence was only assumed, but now we have proof)
I tell you, these can trigger GAS!
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Ben
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2011-03-20 00:59
If we can just figure a way to get it to our cars . . . .
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Author: HMonk
Date: 2011-03-20 09:03
@Ken Shaw
"Are there any dentists here who subscribe?" This one does not.
And now some facts about journal articles.
Most medical/dental/healthcare articles are published for mercenary reasons. While many are informative and even helpful, many more are not, especially those funded by manufacturers/institutions whose singular goal is to get people to buy their goods or services. The prime reason articles are published in academia is to get the name of the author or university known. Indeed, one criteria for professional school hirings is establishing whether an applicant has been published or not. During the course of my 25th year reunion at the University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio, the dean lamented the fact that the Nobel Prize was not amongst the University's widely known accomplishments (insufficient published earth-shattering research). Regardless, the question always remains: do we believe everything we read?
About airborne bacteria, et al.: in part related to homeland security, the U.S. Department of Energy’s Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory has been conducting sampling of "naturally occurring" airborne bacteria in select cities. One of the goals is to establish a baseline level of bacteria so as to be able to detect potential bacteriological assaults as said baseline levels increase. What have they found naturally occurring? According to their data, on average one expects to find in the neighborhood of 1800 different types of bacteria, many pathogenic, in the air at any given time - including botulism, which occurs naturally in the soil (especially in western mountains) and E.coli, especially in agricultural communities.
On a smaller scale, airborne "stuff" has been demonstrated in classrooms for years in the classic microbiological experiment which places an exposed petri dish on a tabletop for a period of time. The dish is then covered and incubated after which any number of bacterial, mold, and fungal colonies have grown.
Before I go any further, I must alert all of you to the fact that toothbrushes are covered with bacteria (from airborne and oral bacterial sources) - and - if stored openly in a bathroom, are very likely to be contaminated with E. coli - the source of which you already know. This explains why I don't wear my horns to the bathroom!
And now a word about EtO sterilization: ethylene oxide is toxic, absorbs in porous substances, is very inflammable, and explosive; it is an ether. While extraordinarily effective, it is an exacting process that does not lend itself to casual use - as in sterilizing musical instruments.
And now a word about orthodontics: many horn/woodwind players displace their teeth as a consequence of forces, especially lingual (toward the tongue or inward) by the mouthpiece or lip pressure. Thumb suckers, e.g., most often have a pronounced overbite as the thumb pushes the teeth labially (outward), as does a proper clarinet embouchure. Conversely, one whose lower lip exerts substantial lingual pressure on the mandibular (lower) incisors may cause the incisors to "cave in." This is especially a problem for older players who have, concomitantly, developed periodontal disease whose resultant bone loss facilitates tooth movement/displacement.
Finally, ever been to Wal-Mart and push a cart around? Do you know what is on the handle of that cart? Ever grab a public doorknob, especially the ones in a public restroom? Ever hear of - and observe - the absurd "5-second rule" that claims that you can drop food on the ground and pick it up within 5 seconds and eat it with impunity? Ever rub your eyes, or rub or scratch the area around your nose or mouth with those fingers that have been to Wal-Mart?
The fact is, throughout one's day, the opportunities to inoculate oneself with pathogenic bacteria are legion; and yet, we survive, me for 68 years. Although you see some folks doing so more recently, I have never swabbed a keyboard before playing it. When finished playing, I do "dry" my sax and clarinet; I also wipe my reeds with a dry tissue then wipe with a tissue moistened with hydrogen peroxide before placing them in a reed holder.
Oh, and that toothbrush: after each use, I spray mine with a 1:100 bleach solution (2 teaspoons of 5.25% sodium hypochlorite bleach per quart) after each use. If you are really finicky and use "super" bleach (concentration more than 5.25% sodium hypochlorite), then divide 5.25 by the concentration of the bleach and multiply that times 2 teaspoons. So, if your bleach is 6% sodium hypochlorite, 5.25/6 = 0.875. 0.875 x 2 teaspoons = 1.75 teaspoons/quart. Is the amount supercritical, no - as long as it's at least 1:100 (actually, I use 1 tablespoon per quart). Overnight, the toothbrush will dry, the bleach will evaporate and in the morning you will not likely notice any bleach taste. Regardless, a 1:100 bleach solution is non-toxic. Some dentists/hygenists say replace a toothbrush after 3 months because it's become contaminated: nonsense! - it's contaminated after the first use!
Any NON-POROUS surface can be adequately disinfected with a 1:100 bleach solution; apply, leave damp, and let air dry. So, if one wishes, Mpcs, joints, ligatures, etc, can be swabbed with a 1:100 solution (may discolor ligature - test on an old one).
Oh, and why hydrogen peroxide on reeds instead of 1:100 bleach: medically, hydrogen peroxide is used as a debriding agent to clean wounds, i.e., it dissolves blood and other injured cells (it is a sanitizer and not so much a disinfectant). My thinking is that I want my reeds to be primarily rid of epithelial cells from my mouth (tongue, mucosa) so I use peroxide. I also feel that its sanitizing action is sufficient for me. I do not use peroxide or bleach on my horns as I do not feel the need to do so.
Monk
Post Edited (2011-03-20 15:49)
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Author: donald
Date: 2011-03-20 09:30
Wow, you guys in USA have a 5 sec rule? We only get 3 Seconds...
dn
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Author: HMonk
Date: 2011-03-20 15:46
@Donald
The explanation is quite simple. First off, one has to appreciate the fact that, unless one has a GU (genitourinary) infection, urine is sterile (a good and useful point to remember if you are ever stranded at sea or in the desert).
Originally, I'm from Boston. Although it might sound repugnant on the face of it, for one example of the efficacious use of urine, one has only to ride the subway one time to realize that the connecting stairways, tunnels/walkways, platforms, and trains are regularly cleaned with urine; depending on the time of day you can see it; you can always smell it.
As a consequence of this fastidious and ubiquitous regimen, tests have shown that very many public ways are quite clean in spite of heavy pedestrian and animal traffic. As a result, one can confidently allow oneself the extra two seconds to retrieve such as dropped chips, errant M&Ms, and even the frozen end of an ice cream cone. While not recommended, there are those that suggest getting on one's hands and knees to lap up spilt coffee is OK as long, of course, as it is done within 5 seconds.
Please don't get me wrong mate, I'm neither bragging about the efforts we here in the USA go to maintain a level of superior hygiene nor am I putting down you good folks down under. It's simply that the facts are the facts.
Monk
Post Edited (2011-03-20 15:55)
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2011-03-20 17:06
Monk wrote,
>>While not recommended, there are those that suggest getting on one's hands and knees to lap up spilt coffee is OK as long, of course, as it is done within 5 seconds.
>>
"Those" would probably include my brother-in-law's beloved rat-terrier.... I think I'll probably keep on rinsing my reeds and mouthpieces with plain tap water instead of pee-water, but thank you for the advice *and* the humor!
Btw, I'm 62 years old, I've played clarinet since I was 9 (with a lapse of a few years during college and grad school) and I don't do anything more exotic than swab out the clarinet and rinse the mouthpiece and reeds, with a very occasional dip in mouthwash when I think of it. Yet I haven't had flu since sometime in the 1990s; I've had exactly one cold in the last three years; and other than the occasional mild cold, I haven't gotten sick at all since 1998. I do thoroughly wash out flea market instruments, mouthpieces and cases (many of which are so full of dirt, mold, etc. that they're revolting), and throw out any reeds and swabs I find in those cases, because I don't know where they've been; but to the average, ordinary household germs around here, I say "phooey" and ignore 'em. Granted, I may have one of those goon squad immune systems (jumps me when it gets bored: arthritis in my legs), but my experience concurs with Dr. Monk's: we don't need to get all panicky about a few puny little germs.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
Post Edited (2011-03-20 17:07)
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Author: HMonk
Date: 2011-03-21 05:39
Very well said, Lelia.
I would never disparage anyone's hygiene regimen; each of us has to satisfy our own requirements with regard to personal safety and health. That said, whether it's hygiene practices, playground safety, "healthy" foods, or any other issue, over the course of my lifetime people have become increasingly anxious over perceived threats - much to their detriment - I think in part so as to never suffer injury, illness, and eventual death. Regardless of our best efforts, however, all of us suffer injury, illness, and eventually die.
So, make and enjoy your music in whatever form it takes and, as you do so, enjoy life.
Monk
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