 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bb R13 greenline
Date: 2011-03-16 23:55
sorry for making so many posts, but i have come to alittle trouble with my embouchure.....again. ok so the problem started a month or two ago, i had been playing on vandoren traditional 3 1/2's for well over a year and then for some reason i started not being able to play on them so i switched down to a 3. a couple weeks later the 3s got to hard and now im on the 2 1/2s.
ive been playing with the 2 1/2s now and theyr fine but today while i was practicing i noticed when i play whith only my mouth piece i play a concert Bb instead of a concert C and whith my barrel its f instead of f#
so i was going over the copland concerto for the first time today(realy beautiful piece, miles ahead of where i am) and when i started playing my clarion D-F# the notes would be realy hesitant in coming out and sometimes would hit overtones.
i know i should go to these problems with my teacher but he unfortunately is out of town for 2 weeks so i cant at the time being, help please!
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-03-17 00:12
A couple of questions:
What do you mean by "then for some reason i started not being able to play on them...?" How many new 3-1/2s did you try? What happened when you tried them?
Had you changed anything or had anything beyond your control changed just before you began to have trouble (including weather, something in your mouth, damage to the instrument or mouthpiece, etc...)?
When you switched to #3s, did all of your problems disappear for a time?
When the #3s "got too hard" what happened - what did you hear in the sound or feel in the response that told you they were too hard?
Do you know how to test your clarinet for leaky pads (air leaks, not water)?
Karl
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Author: Bb R13 greenline
Date: 2011-03-17 00:54
When I switched to the 3s they were good but then got more resistant and sounded really airy, before changing my reeds I had bought the vandoren m13 mouthpiece hoping for a darker sound, after a month I changed back to my b45 because I could not get a big enuf dynamic range and I was terribly flat with the m13. The last time my teacher and me met he said that my embouchure had gotten inconsistent so maybe the m13 made it so? I don't know exactly how to test for leaks
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-03-17 01:34
I'm not completely clear on the time line of the mouthpiece changes and the reed changes.
First, how many of the #3-1/2 reeds (new out of the box) did you try before concluding that they were too hard? What mouthpiece were you using at that point? If you were using the M13, how long had you been playing on it?
What mouthpiece were you using when you started to use the #3s?
What reeds were you using when you switched back to your B45?
Are you now using #2-1/2s with the B45?
B45 and M13 are entirely different facings and the likelihood is pretty much nil that you would like the same reed on both.
The problem you describe around clarion D-F# could be a result of too soft a reed closing up or of a leak (or multiple leaks) almost anywhere above your D (RH ring) finger.
A quick test for leaks is to take each section one at a time, moisten your fingers, cover the holes and close all keyed holes while closing the end of the section with the moistened palm of the other hand. Then put your lips up to the open end and suck the air out. If you can get a strong suction that will hold for several seconds without letting go, you probably don't have a leak big enough to cause the problem you're describing.
Some players prefer to blow air into the sealed up section and listen for an air hiss if there is a leak somewhere. One repairman I went to as a junior high school student (in the 1960s) went one better and blew cigarette smoke into my clarinet to see if the smoke would escape anywhere. I don't recommend using smoke (the clarinet stank for weeks).
Neither way is really conclusive - you can pull pads closed that aren't sealing under normal circumstances (maybe because of a weak spring) when you suck air out, and you can blow pads open that wouldn't open under normal air pressure while playing if you blow air in. But you will detect a major leak with either method. If you can't get a suction to hold or hear air hissing out, take the clarinet to a competent tech to correct the problem.
Give us a more detailed chronology of your reed and mouthpiece changes. I'm thinking that maybe you just weren't used to the feel of the M13's facing - it's considerably more closed at the tip and has a little longer curve than a B45. If you were very accustomed to the B45, the M13 might take some getting used to.
Karl
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Author: Bb R13 greenline
Date: 2011-03-17 03:41
Ok the time line is like this
1. I played on b45 with 3 1/2 reeds for a year or two
2. I switched to m13 with 3 1/2 reeds which sounded very good just was insanely flat and couldn't get above a mezzo-forte for 3 weeks
3. I went down to the 3s because playing became laborious for a month
4. I switched back to the b45 now on 3s
5. I moved down to 2 1/2 s on the b45 for 2 months
I tried sucking the air out of my lower joint ant it lasted for about 3 seconds does that mean it's leaking?
Post Edited (2011-03-17 03:46)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-03-17 16:07
Ok, switching mouthpieces IS a big deal. So, stick with one for a few months before you wind up not having a paradigm.
The pitch thing intrigues me because the B45 is a pretty open mouthpiece. If all things were equal besides the tip opening, you should have ONLY experienced easier blowing on the M13.
NOW, the "M" series are ONLY available in the A=440 pitch. I might think that your B45 is NOT an AMERICAN PITCH version (labeled 13 Series, or "for the R13 American Standard Pitch). I am NOT fond of the whole "lower pitch" idea because it encourages players to be at their upper tolerance limit with their embouchure. One should be able to control pitch more within the "middle" of your limits so that you can move down OR up with pitch at will (within reason of course).
Naturally if you have a 13 Series B45 that last rant is a moot point.
As for the suction test, yours sounds fine (being able to hold the air for any measurable length of time is a good thing). It is when you are not able to CREATE a suction at all that you have a problem.
Personally I use suction 99% of the time because it is a good initial indicator for all situations. The only typical spot where positive pressure is a better indicator is with your bottom joint, RH Eb/Ab key. If this cup comes up with only very moderate positive pressure, it WILL affect how well the E, F and G (and upper 12th too!!!) come out.
.........................Paul Aviles
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Author: Bb R13 greenline
Date: 2011-03-17 20:20
Thanx for the answers:) the overtone problem fixed itself somehow, I tried my m13 again and I was able to play a 3 1/2 but when I went back to the b45 I was only able to play the 2 1/2s I'm thinking now that maybe it was the reeds but the problem seems to be fixed, oh and my b45 is just a plane b45 my m13 is american
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-03-17 20:39
AHA!!!!!
I don't want to confuse the issue too much since you already have the newer, alternate mouthpiece, but a 5RV Lyre is close to the M13 in feel and it IS available in a NON-13 series version ...... just tossing that out there for your consideration.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-03-17 22:18
It's reasonable that you'd be able to play comfortably on a harder reed with the M13 than the B45.
Sometimes you get a run of hard cane in a particular box. The reeds are supposed to be graded according to the result of a flex test of some sort, but I've gotten an occasional box that just seemed harder than usual for the strength.
And you probably shouldn't make decisions about strength based on used reeds - ones you've already selected for a different mouthpiece.
You didn't say how many reeds you tried or whether or not they were new, so I'm only suggesting these things in case they apply.
The M13 will play a little flatter than a B45 Traditional (not Series 13), as Paul has pointed out, but exaggerated flatness is more likely the result of too soft reeds, especially if it gets more pronounced as you go up through the clarion and into the altissimo registers.
Notes that don't speak, when there's no leak anywhere to explain the problem, are often the result of reed closure, caused either by using normal pressure on too light a reed or biting on something heavier. Notes' seeming to "break up" or slip into higher harmonics can also be caused by leaks or by reed closure. The interesting thing is that the resistance caused by a reed that's closing up (for whatever reason) can be mistaken for the resistance of a reed that's too hard. It's possible - though I couldn't say for sure without hearing you and trying your M13 with a good #3-1/2 - that when you changed to the M13 you were actually biting the reeds off, having been used to the pressure you used on the B45. It's a thought, not a diagnosis. But many players I know (myself included when I briefly played on a M13) use #4 and even #4-1/2 (V12) on that mouthpiece.
Your best bet is to find some combination of reed/mouthpiece you can play with reasonable comfort and go through all of this with your teacher at your next lesson when the teacher can actually hear you.
Good luck,
Karl
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