 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Reedirect
Date: 2011-02-15 06:17
Yes, it is indeed fascinating to see the tongue, the pharynx, and the voice box interact. However, the cumulative radiation dosage is inacceptable. But, well, these are very old films from times nowbody knew (or cared) about long-term effects of radiation exposure.
Best
Jo
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2011-02-15 08:05
This is fantastic! I've been experimenting with throat, tongue and jaw recently and I've come to the conclusion that I don't involve any of them nearly enough. This player appears to use a lot of movement. I'd love to compare it to an x-ray of myself, but, y'know!
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Author: Reedirect
Date: 2011-02-15 09:27
It may be possible to play a chalumeau in a Magentic Resonance Imaging (MRI) tube. By this you can create real-time 3D images of every internal part of your body while playing. Chalumeau, because only non-magnetic objects are allowed in an MRI. Thus, a conventional clarinet cannot be used. But embouchure aspects may very well be properly revealed. I wonder whether this has already been done. I googled it but didn't find something.
Best
Jo
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-02-15 10:10
As stated the last time we presented this video, I find that if you look at where his lower teeth move from note to note as well as the openness of the jaw in general, all we can deduce from this is that THERE IS NO CONCLUSIVE evidence for the affects of "voicing" on tone.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2011-02-15 10:31
MRI and fMRI tubes are extremely tight, you can barely fit your upper body in, I don't think you could take a clarinet with you. Unless there are larger ones available somewhere.
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Author: Reedirect
Date: 2011-02-15 11:27
Open MRI do already exist. In these you may be able to play. I havn't done this but it's possible. look at the image.
http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://www.mriupright.com/main_logo_front.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.mriupright.com/&usg=__BBCafnyWgptbMQbkhYPjdRoBELk=&h=552&w=414&sz=28&hl=de&start=5&zoom=1&itbs=1&tbnid=zA3OGQqSQ_dKcM:&tbnh=133&tbnw=100&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dopen%2BMRI%26hl%3Dde%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:1&ei=dG9aTc2wIoaAOtyxsbQL
Being a surgeon myself I hope that my colleagues from the radiology department may soon purchase such an open MRI so that I can make use of a little idle time and play a chalumeau or a pocket clarineau (cleraly with a non-metal ligature) within the device.
http://www.shop.kieffers.de/Media/Shop/pocket-clarineau.jpg
Best
Jo
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Author: hinotehud ★2017
Date: 2011-02-15 11:52
I remember reading about a doctoral thesis at University of Iowa from the 1930's. It was about motion picture x-rays and the changes in tongue position while playing in different registers. I believe Himie Voxman was the faculty adviser for this paper. Does anyone know if this video is from that study?
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2011-02-15 12:01
This has been presented before under voicing (see Ray Wheeler). You see the consistent movement of the back of the tongue corresponding with different registers and getting the best voicing. I can't agree with Paul Aviles on this one.
Chris.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-02-15 14:01
If you look at the corresponding postion of the lower teeth with the notes (lower notes = lower postion on the reed) one (such as myself) could say THIS is the cause of the different sounds.
I was asked toward the first go around on this if I could accomplish moving up a twelfth without the register key and just air speed. I did not have an answer at the time but with an afternoon the answer was YES..... NO QUESTION.
There are fine players who achieve beautiful sounds in all registers with no movement of tongue at all ............ I like that technique better.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2011-02-15 21:00
Paul Aviles wrote:
>>There are fine players who achieve beautiful sounds in all registers with no movement of tongue at all ............ I like that technique better.>>
Oh, shut up. How do you know what they do?
And who cares what you like?
Tony
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-02-15 21:27
Really interesting but what a terrible tone quality, not such great teeth either . What we see here is what is referred to as "voicing". ESP
http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2011-02-15 21:58
Ed Palanker wrote:
>> What we see here is what is referred to as "voicing".>>
No, we don't.
Tony
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Author: kimber
Date: 2011-02-15 21:58
I love watching these. Shows people that there is always more going on the body than they are aware of.
Reedirect - a minute of fluoro time is by no means over-exposure unless you are using an antiquated machine. Most of the esophageal/swallowing studies I complete average at a minute or so (six just in the last two days.) Is xraying clarinet playing unnecessary exposure...maybe...but people do many weird things in the name of science.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-02-16 02:49
Quote:
>>There are fine players who achieve beautiful sounds in all registers with no movement of tongue at all ............ I like that technique better.>>
Oh, shut up. How do you know what they do?
And who cares what you like?
Tony Really? I know you get paid to play, but it's just so disappointing to see that instead of coming onto this board and helping others with your knowledge, it seems more often than not you come onto it to make brash comments towards others. I've read more than a few of the threads with your replies in it and it's just so disheartening seeing how you act towards others. Ah well. I guess it's the internet and this board is fairly liberal in how we treat others in it. Well, I haven't ever heard you play, but after this one, I don't care to. While others may say you have recordings that exemplify this work or that one, I'll simply look to one of the many other recording artists if I want to hear good music. Ones that, if they are as rude as you are, at least they have the tact and discipline to keep their thoughts about others to themselves so as not to lose potential customers or have their names used in a poor manner.
Sigh. Mark or GBK, is there currently, or are there plans for an "ignore" function where we can simply ignore posts by certain users? I'm frustrated reading attacks, put-downs, and "I'm better than you" posts by Tony Pay. If not, I'll just deal with it I guess until he leaves the board for good and realizes that us peons are not worth the time he spends at his keyboard (hopefully soon.)
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: ned
Date: 2011-02-16 04:06
Alexi writes: ''.....instead of coming onto this board and helping others with your knowledge, it seems more often than not you come onto it to make brash comments towards others. I've read more than a few of the threads with your replies in it and it's just so disheartening seeing how you act towards others.''
It's a matter of personal opinion I guess..............but it's certainly an attention getter.
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2011-02-16 07:47
You could ask the same of Tony too - if he replies with a 'Do you KNOW who I am?' we know he's a snob and to stop buying his CDs.
Yours isn't the only opinion that matters mate.
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Author: Reedirect
Date: 2011-02-16 08:07
Hi Kimber:
Quote:
Reedirect - a minute of fluoro time is by no means over-exposure unless you are using an antiquated machine. Most of the esophageal/swallowing studies I complete average at a minute or so (six just in the last two days.) Is xraying clarinet playing unnecessary exposure...maybe...but people do many weird things in the name of science.
[unquote]
Oh yes, but that you do for diagnostic purposes and not for the fun of it. Clearly, people do weird things but I wouldn't recommend playing clarinet while being filmed with x-ray let alone that I wouldn't even find a colleague accepting his/her equipment being used for such non-medical endeavours. But anyway, the old films exist and why shouldn't we watch them.
But I'm very eager to try open MRI once I get a chance. The worst thing happening in it is my credit card being destroyed.
Best
Jo
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-02-16 10:18
To some extent the "controversy" angle is a sign that we talk about things that touch a nerve. That can be a good thing.
We should NOT discourage fine players from their opinions since that is what we pay teachers for in the first place. If my teacher had said, "Get the hell out of my studio, you're waisting my time!!," it would have saved me years of grief at the hands of my clarinets.
I like the board the way it is........ and Mr. Pay as well.
........................Paul Aviles
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2011-02-16 14:58
Several of us tried to have a reasonable conversation with you about this subject when you posted:
>> I have come to the conclusion that many of us have been duped into believing that the tongue position can alter the pitch and or resistance of a given note.>>
...in your delicately entitled thread, 'Voicing is a "crock"':
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=323313&t=323313
However, despite evidence, you continue to bang on about it.
You can't go on writing rubbish in the company of expert players and expect to get away with it, peons on the list notwithstanding.
Just to cite one obvious example, how do you think we come to be able to produce an acceptable throat Bb on the clarinet?
Please stop.
Tony
A sequence of reeds
A couple of mouthpieces
Various clarinets
Me
...oh, and I suppose a ligature of some sort
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Author: kimber
Date: 2011-02-16 15:38
I'm still a newbie and won't claim to understand the round-and-round about voicing.
I would love to have you all sit in a circle, hand you all the exact same one dollar plastic recorder (controls for lig, mpc, reed, clarinet differences), let you play the open note and analyze any or all acoustic vs. perceptual variations as you shift your oral structures around to find the sound you like.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-02-16 15:39
It is probably good to have a strong reaction to Tony Pay.
In several instances, I have profited from his comments; he has taken time to point me in the right direction.
That is not to say that understanding his missives is easy for me. I can't recall ever not experiencing a Whiskey Tango Foxtrot moment when sitting down to decode one of his messages. I lay that to my ignorance of "standard performance practice" form the eras that he has mastered.
I tried to adjust my travel plans for last year around his appearance with the Orchestra of The Age of Enlightenment in Chicago last year, but failed in that. I'd hoped to be able to talk him into a lesson (even an expensive lesson) just so that I could meet him.
You've gotta love his inclusion of "me" in his sign-off set up specification in the above post.
We could ignore or even censor Anthony Pay; but I, personally, would be the poorer for it.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-02-16 15:48
Well actually there has been some reliable input from an Italian-American clarinet player of the past who stated that he didn't really move his tongue at all. He had a very good career as a symphonic and studio musician.
My contention is that we (an I mean most of us, good and not so good) may be fooling ourselves with the position of tongue as a tool. Much of how this is taught involves thinking vowel SOUNDS. When we do these sounds, we not only move the tongue but we also OPEN and CLOSE our jaws as well.
I have spent a lot of time in the last five months or so purposely not moving ANYTHING, trying to screw up my sound to prove that we need to change things to make certain notes work better. What I have been getting is not only far from screwing up, it actually makes play more efficient.
The real irony here is that it all started with your (Tony Pay's) post about the "hippopotomus." That was only a starting point though. A trumpet playing friend of mine referenced a similar "machine" that played trumpet perfectly in all registers only changing the air speed (to trumpet players' great surprise there was no need to change lip tension either).
So I only ask that we not dismiss the idea out of turn. Perhaps maybe get some input from Combs, Brody, Leister, Meyer, Bliss, and whoever wins the CSO audition. There may be some surprising answers.
......................Paul Aviles
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2011-02-16 16:19
But you see, we're largely unaware of the details of our tongue movements. The point of my writing "How do you know what they do?" is that THEY don't know what they do.
Try whistling a simple tune, or a scale. What do you do with your tongue, to produce such an enormous output difference?
And I thought I'd explained about the hippopotamus. Read it again.
(By the way, y'all, PLEASE don't buy my CDs. I can do without that.
And Alexi: do you think that I post here in order to ENHANCE my reputation? Why do the players YOU think of as 'the BIG boys and girls', haha, not bother?)
Tony
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Author: srattle
Date: 2011-02-16 16:25
I really don't want to get into any war, but I would like to ask one question.
Paul:
How do you know that you are not moving your tongue? I believe that a certain amount of tongue motion is involuntary and will happen when we play clarinet regardless of whether we mean to or not. Similar to they eyes when we close them, it's basically (or actually) impossible to keep them still, and they move around 'on their own'
Now, if the question is whether we need to use a lot of tongue motion, or only a little, whether changing tongue position consciously from note to note. . well I think that's a slightly different argument, but I just am unsure that when you say you are playing with no tongue motion at all, if that is actually true.
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2011-02-16 16:27
I have seen several tests using medical equipment, like ultrasounds for instance. I have yet to see one which corresponds to anything like I'd want to sound like.
Someone was showing me the video of an ultrasound saying "look how the tongue position goes low on these notes....". It also corresponded with a drop in pitch, focus, and tonal quality.
Tony is right on, as he usually is. No one really knows or can adequately describe exactly what happens in their body while playing. We can say generally what we feel or what we concentrate on while playing, but the minutia of each note and each voicing is a bit of a mystery and difficult to describe.
To say that the tongue does not move at all is indeed moronic. Many teachers tell their students to keep their tongue still because they are moving it around TOO MUCH causing problems. It is not far fetched to say that professionals and students alike move their tongue while playing (aside from articulation) in subtle or dramatic ways and it would be VERY DIFFICULT or impossible to not move it at all (I'm leaning toward impossible).
Is Tony Pay rude? Is he a bit harsh? Sure. Do others here say things that are not well thought out, misleading, wrong, or from players who are frankly not good enough to have an educated opinion? Yup.
Tony just tries to balance things out. While there is a lot of good information and discussion on this board, there is probably 80% complete "rubbish", as Tony would say. Perhaps the percentage is higher or lower depending on the thread and who is or isn't contributing.
So many posts, so many players- from Tony Pay down to junior high kids with no real training. Sometimes incorrect or just bad information gets thrown around because we all want to encourage the free flow of ideas and opinions.
In the end, the freedom of a forum like this worth it! Even the best of players who contribute (including Tony) can learn something, even if it's so he can solidify his own ideas or allowing him to explain it in new ways.
And of course Tony os some times flat out wrong himself =)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-02-17 02:22
That's an interesting youtube video. It goes by pretty quickly and I was hoping for some slow transitions between the high arch of the tongue and the low tongue to really have a longer time to "hear" the differences the tongue position makes.
I for one think the tongue position does make a difference in the note, but use it more of a "tuning" aid. For me, I find that lowering my tongue and making that oral cavity larger lowers the pitch and so I'll use it if I'm trying to blend and I seem to be sharper. I DO find that a slight change in tongue position can help some notes to speak. If I want to change the TONE, I find that I mess more with embouchure pressure.
Paul, I've been experimenting myself with trying to keep tongue/jaw movement to a minimum. Even between registers, I'm trying to keep from rolling that lower lip down. I think this has recently REALLY helped me keep a steady pitch with those altissimo notes and really cut down on the slight waivers here and there that I would hear while playing.
Alexi
PS - Tony, I know you'll continue doing what you're doing. I'll just have to wait for those informational posts whenever you put them and just have to ignore the (what I perceive as) snootiness that I see from you in some of your shorter answers.
NBeaty, I know I can certainly be in that 80% of "rubbish" (I definitely was when I found this board about 8 years ago), but I was reading back from my earlier posts and I'm still happy with how this board has helped my playing. I'll continue to support it and learn what I can, and hope to my contributions become better and better as time goes on. And grow a little thicker skin. hehehe.
US Army Japan Band
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Author: ned
Date: 2011-02-17 10:18
Geez, I don't know............some of you folks are gluttons for punishment.
Not only do you get lobbed hand grenades from Tony Pay, but you also thank him for it, or come back for more...............or both.............in some instances!
I must say, I always read posts which have comments from Tony Pay, it always makes for amusing and, mostly, fairly interesting reading. I must confess however, with some of his original posts, I have barely clue as to the meaning.
But, keep up the good work all of you masochists, I'm looking forward to the next round of ripostes.
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2011-02-17 12:56
I think it's important that if someone refutes your argument or ideas...don't take it personally. Knowledge is constantly changing. On a personal level I love Tony Pay's playing and I've found his ides very helpful. The person I disagree with on this topic, Paul Aviles, I've also found some of his views (on mouthpieces for beginners) helpful also.
Here is an article that I think is relevant. Notice the concluding sentence "...who did not tune a strong resonance, were unable to play notes in the altissimo range."
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/reprints/Chenetal.pdf
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-02-17 16:26
My point is that intentional movement may be inherently detrimental to sound. There is a trumpet method book that clearly shows a low note with a footnote to the player....."YAW" immediately followed by high note with a footnote "HEE." When listening to the player who likes this book play, I hear this difference in these notes and I do not find it pleasing.
I contend that there are clarinet players who get the same effect and I don't like the sound of that either. By extension it seems that one should get the smoothest transitions register to register with the LEAST amount of change.
Also, since the note is actually generated by the vibration of the air column in the clarinet which is set off by the vibration of the reed, can anyone explain to me how any change to the chamber PRIOR to the reed/mouthpiece can affect pitch?
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2011-02-17 16:58
Paul Aviles wrote:
>> Also, since the note is actually generated by the vibration of the air column in the clarinet which is set off by the vibration of the reed, can anyone explain to me how any change to the chamber PRIOR to the reed/mouthpiece can affect pitch?>>
Your difficulty is that you have the wrong model in mind.
Roughly, the steady state of a clarinet note consists of a coupling between the vibration of the reed and the vibration of the air column. The direction of causation is not one-way; it is just as true/untrue to say that the air column vibration determines the vibration of the reed as it is to say that the vibration of the reed determines the vibration of the air column.
The crucial thing to see is that the pressure wave travelling down the instrument is REFLECTED around the first open tonehole, becoming a rarefaction wave travelling up the instrument to interact with the vibrating reed. The broadcast sound of the clarinet is essentially leakage from this cyclic process -- which, remember, occurs several hundreds of times a second, depending to the pitch, in the playing of one note. (There's a good picture on the unsw website posted by Chris Ondaatje.)
That being so, the vibrations of the air cavity in which the reed finds itself (within the mouth) also affects the vibration of the reed to some small extent. All three systems -- mouth, reed/embouchure, instrument -- come into it.
The effect of the mouth cavity is particularly noticeable when the coupling between the reed and the instrument bore is weak -- throat Bb is a good example -- or when we play high in the soprano register. There, we can substantially affect the pitch by altering tongue position, varying the geometry of the cavity.
Glissando is also helpfully thought of in this way: 'half-holing' the clarinet in the soprano register makes the tube, from the point of view of the reed, 'look more indeterminate as a resonator', and this makes the mouth cavity more dominant.
We may not be able to influence the pitch so much in other registers; but we can affect the sound to some degree, if we wish. Sometimes that effect upon the sound is required to be in the direction of making the notes on either side of a transition MORE equal in quality -- again, how we deal with throat Bb is a good example. We can help other unevennesses in the scale in this way too -- if we wish.
The point about the hippopotamus is that the coupling between resonances of THAT mouth cavity and the vibration of the reed is negligible, because the walls are so far away that there is essentially no resonance.
Not so in the case of a human player, who has to learn not to use the 'wrong' shape.
Tony
Post Edited (2011-02-20 00:47)
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-02-18 03:14
Tony!
Your explanation of the fact that the reed is affected by the oscillating pressures on BOTH sides is extremely clear.
May I add that another soft Helmholtz resonator is coupled to the player's mouth. That is the combination of throat and lungs; and might be likened to a whiskey jug with adjustable volume and neck.
I imagine that this "jug" is most sensitive to what the player is doing with his/er throat and less sensitive to how inflated the lungs are.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2011-02-18 04:53
Could it be that players in general, both the pros to the beginners, are confused about the word "Voicing?"
Once this word is clarified and clearly defined, it would be a lot easier to make sense of Eddie Palanker's comment about voicing, which caused such a radical disturbance on the subject.
The word "Voicing," can mean different things to different players.
I could attempt to define this word and put it into perspective to the whole mouth cavity, air flow, the jaw position, double lip, thin lips, fat lips, fast articulation, flat tonguing, and of course the tongue position in general, but this would most likely lead to more confusion until it is properly defined.
I can only speak for myself. I will leave out this voicing word. I move my tongue! Most of the time it's involuntary or perhaps automatic to produce a nice sound. However, it is my opinion that the tongue position is not the key component defining the word "Voicing." I move my tongue position without thinking about it. Perhaps this is due to 45 years of playing and around 33 years as a pro.
I can honestly say my tongue position has never effected me from winning a concerto competition, a symphony audition, or studio and recording work here in Los Angeles.
It's probably best to forget about the tongue moving around and have everyone write about defining the word "Voicing," first.
Here's an example... A teacher may tell you to use your diaphragm. What the heck does that mean? Where is it located, how big is it, whatever you think of to figure out what it is and what it does. When teaching at a college back east it was a lot easier for me to hand out balloons and tell the students to blow into the balloons for a few minutes a day for a week. Once they do this they are using the diaphragm along with all of the other muscles and lungs together as one unit. Perhaps there is a way to teach and define the word voicing similar to using the balloon exercise.
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2011-02-18 11:15
I think Tony's article explains what is happening as clearly as possible.
A few more points. Other studies such as the one posted above, and by P.Clinch and several others have demonstrated that this movement is not a matter of choice. Every half decent player does it.
I assume beginner Clarinet players may do it less, but the studies i have seen do not seem interested in what beginners do. Most of us do not care to emulate their sounds though a few 'Jazz' players might.
So when some 'expert' says they don't move their tongue when they play, what they are really saying is "I'm not aware of any tongue movement when i play".
The reason we are not aware of what we do is to do with how the Brain functions. The way we respond is basically an emotional response first and then a rationalization of this response.
Everyone has a right to an opinion but large amounts of information should not be ignored.
Those who are better informed have almost a moral obligation to put forward new information.
Chris.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2011-02-18 15:05
Many times I have heard people use "ah" vs "ee" as being polarities in what they describe as voicing a note on the clarinet. I note that I am capable of singing HIGH with "ah" and LOW with "ee". If we sustain a long tone and change the syllable from "ah" to "ee" but keep the same pitch level in your oral cavity I suspect very little change would occur. Anyway I thought I would throw out some "ahs" and "ees" before "zzz's" creep in.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: kimber
Date: 2011-02-18 16:17
Pitch is controlled by laryngeal elevation (pitch changes linearly with the distance between the cricoid and thyroid cartilages) not the oral cavity or tongue position in the mouth. As your 'adam's apple' goes up in the neck, your pitch goes higher, regardless of the vowel you are saying.
The changing of the vowel affects the tongue position and muscle rigidity, including changing the tongue base muscle tension, which pull down the front of the neck - changes the resonating or airspin cavity qualities.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-02-18 19:39
Sorry guys, as hard as I try it is lip/jaw pressure.
But I did enjoy the whole "air column/coupling" double talk thing.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2011-02-18 23:57
Well that is the point. People do have to actually read the posts and make an effort to understand.
Chinese proverb:
"Teachers open the door but you must walk through it yourself."
Not only do some people not walk through, they seem unaware of the presence of the door.
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Author: ned
Date: 2011-02-19 01:26
Phurster writes: ''I assume beginner Clarinet players may do it less, but the studies i have seen do not seem interested in what beginners do. Most of us do not care to emulate their sounds though a few 'Jazz' players might.''
As ''Jazz'' player, I'd be keen for you to expand upon this comment please?
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2011-02-19 04:00
I take it that Kimber is referring to singing and not playing the clarinet? Obviously the biggest pitch adjustment are jaw involved.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2011-02-19 13:15
Ned, I understand that comment my seem provocative. It was not meant to be.
I'll try to illustrate what I was trying to say:
I did a concert last year. The 2nd clarinet was a Jazz player (as in played/performed more Jazz works than classical concerts). He played on a shorter barrel to match up with his oral cavity shapes. His barrel was about 2mm shorter than mine and he had a sharper playing mouthpiece.
The sound he enjoyed for Jazz was a bit Sax like. Mellow and relaxed (my idea of a Jazz sound) rather than focused and resonant (my classical ideal).
when beginners start the Clarinet they often play flat for the first few months until they work out the oral cavity shapes that bring the pitch up.
Many Jazz players do seem to prefer this 'relaxed' sound.
This is the connection I was trying to make.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2011-02-20 01:04
Paul Aviles wrote:
>> Sorry guys, as hard as I try it is lip/jaw pressure. But I did enjoy the whole "air column/coupling" double talk thing.>>
The part about coupling between reed vibration and air column isn't 'double talk', as I understand the term. It's what you find in any elementary acoustics textbook. The extent to which resonances of the mouth are important in general playing might be in question; but for most expert players, despite your experience, bending of soprano notes to any significant extent certainly involves it.
Your difficulty with the description I gave -- if you found one -- may still be to do with your picture of what's going on. I slightly edited my previous post to include a reference to the rather large number of cycles of the reflection at the first open hole of the pressure wave generated at the reed. That might help; the number is counterintuitive in the same way that the extraordinarily large number of cycles of a piston engine operating at speed (thousands per minute) is counterintuitive.
Tony
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2011-02-20 02:30
I have just glanced through this thread and watched the video, and I see there is some dispute about tongue movements... partly using this clip as evidence.
Maybe I missed, sorry to be harsh to the person that made the video, but I don't think that this kind of clarinet playing can be thought of as [runs behind shield] very "proficient".
I would have to see the movements of some really good professionals or even good college music majors to use as evidence for "what is really going on in the mouth and throat".
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2011-02-21 11:35
Skygardener, the quality of the recording equipment can greatly affect the sound. Since this recording was for research I doubt any great effort was put into the sound quality.
The player might have been very good.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2011-02-21 12:31
After reviewing this thread and older ones that pertain to it I find there is very little agreement here on anything. We really haven't got down to dealing with the nuts and bolts of the matter. We have the complex theoretical ideas and the multitude of ideas based on personal experiences. Perhaps there are two camps. Those who think they are doing it a certain way but know it might be contrary to what is actually happening and the other camp who believe they are actually doing what they think they are. I forgot camp three which is the non thinking group. I guess I'm in their midst.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: kimber
Date: 2011-02-21 14:00
Arnoldstang - if I want to change my pitch I'm supposed to change my jaw (bite?) and mess up a good embouchure - shouldn't there be better ways to do that?
Pitch bending and glissandi on the clarinet: Roles of the vocal
tract and partial tone hole closure
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/reprints/ChenetalJASA09.pdf
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-02-21 15:35
OK, look, if you are on the second ledger line C, you can 'bend' the note with contorting the pocket of air in you mouth - granted. You can add the rolling of the lip and jaw pressure and bend it even more. But try that with a third line B for instance. You're not going to be able to bend much of anything.
Getting back to the high C, the note loses all its resonance with this "air pocket bending" and you lose any practical application of this technique.
What I'm saying is that the "coupling" is probably more our 'coupling' of air/tongue/lips for vocalization from infancy and any attempt at honest "isolation" (as a dancer must isolate muscles one from another) is futile.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2011-02-21 17:35
Paul Aviles wrote:
>> What I'm saying is that the "coupling" is probably more our 'coupling' of air/tongue/lips for vocalization from infancy and any attempt at honest "isolation" (as a dancer must isolate muscles one from another) is futile.>>
And I suppose that what I/we are saying is that that isolation, although in practice it never really occurs without other modulation operating to some extent, can be a crucial technique for nuance, particularly in fast passagework.
It's your DISMISSAL of the notion that irritates me. Why should we put up with your take on how clarinet playing SHOULD be, when all you're doing is to limit people's understanding? Just because in bel canto playing, most such variation is subtle, and therefore imperceptible to peons, doesn't mean that it shouldn't be a part of a player's technical vocabulary.
When people find it impossible to do what an admired player can do, clearly they are playing in a more limited world than that admired player. What's then needed is an expansion of their world.
Stuff about what they SHOULD be doing -- like, not moving their tongue, not moving their embouchure -- may in the first approximation give them a more reasonable approach to making an acceptable basic sound. But beyond that, it's simply a limitation.
And, moreover, it's just NOT TRUE as a description of the subtleties of what we do.
Tony
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2011-02-21 19:02
Kimber, Yes, when you play Rhapsody in Blue don't worry about altering your embouchure pressure. It's a jazz inflection here and pretty well anything goes.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-02-21 22:44
Due to this thread, I've been experimenting in a practice room with various things. I find that with a firm, and pretty stable embouchure, I can move my tongue ALL around and not affect the pitch of the note (to my knowledge), although playing certain leaps and notes/registers are certainly easier with different tongue placements than others. And I find that scooping/bending/smearing notes CAN be done with just embouchure and fingers, however adding different tongue positions makes it easier for me.
I think perhaps earlier, I felt that moving the tongue was really bending the pitches up in the altissimo, when in reality, I was unknowingly moving my embouchure whenever I moved my tongue. So I THOUGHT it was the tongue, but it was the embouchure. When I focused on not moving the jaw, it didn't move. But backpressure changed, and sometimes a note felt a little less "stable" (as in I could feel as though it was going to crack, or break into an over or undertone or something...)
I even imitated the "Hee...haw" of the video with a stable embouchure and it didn't change the pitch (even checked with a tuner).
It certainly was fun to play around though. Now to find those right "combinations" of tongue/embouchure for certain notes, smears, bends, scoops, etc.
Alexi
PS - Been playing some dixie lately and am really trying out some "out of the box" stuff. FINALLY, with a combination of tongue and embouchure and fingers, can smoothly smear over the altissimo break. But still can't manage to smoothly get up to the high G in the Artie Shaw Concerto (G to G smear). Will work on it.
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2011-02-24 17:27
Going way back in this thread, what do others make of Tony's response to Ed Palanker? " (Ed) What we see here is what is referred to as "voicing".>> (Tony)
"No, we don't."
Is the video showing extremely drastic oral manipulations rather than subtle changes that might be considered "voicings" or are voicings more to do with the "coupling" idea that is mentioned.? or both?
My short question is.....What is voicing?
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2011-02-24 21:37
'Voicing' is best considered from the standpoint of the listener.
When we speak, the nuances of our words -- our accents, our emotional states, and a myriad other things -- are perceived by LISTENERS, including (crucially) ourselves.
Of course, they are a result of our tongue movements, as well as many other things. And we are able to produce these nuances only because, over time, we have evolved the behaviour patterns that generate them.
BUT -- that doesn't mean that we consciously know the details of the tongue movements involved.
If you are sensitive to the nuances that constitute excellent clarinet playing, then you may be able to produce those, too, if you allow yourself to. In my view, this 'allowing' is an important part of the process.
On the other hand, if you AREN'T sensitive to those nuances; then -- as happens with deaf people in the case of speech -- no amount of direct instruction can give you mastery.
As some have noticed, I find myself considerably angered by the people on this list who, tyros themselves, think that they are qualified to pontificate here about what it is necessary to do -- or, worse, NOT to do -- in order to play the clarinet well.
The damage lies not only in the false recipe, but in the notion that ANY such recipe could possibly be adequate for the job.
Tony
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The Clarinet Pages
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