 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-02-13 07:51
Does the B&H Edgware model ever have pot metal keys? Or maybe some of them do and some don't? Is there a way to know? I looked at some past threads and it wasn't clear.
Some posts say the pot metal keys have numbers under the touchpieces. Is this always the case and do all the touchpieces have them? On this one the touchpieces don't have anything written under any touchpieces, at least not visual ones (some are corked so don't know).
This one has the decoration turning at the bottom of the bell, but no metal ring there. There are metal tenon caps on all tenon ends. Keys look nickel plated. S/N is 457XXX. Made of wood which looks excellent. Keys seem (from brief check only so far) decent design and built. Any other info, when it was made, etc.?
I've read in some other posts about problems with this model with plating and ergonomics but at least for me, this one doesn't have them. My only major problem with this one is that when the bridge key is aligned the left and right hand ring keys are significantly out of line, considerably more than any other clarinet I can remember. Though maybe this would be comfortable to other players. Luckily this clarinet has a very good design of bridge key (parallel to body when right hand ring key is pressed) that with just a slight change could work in any alignment of the joints.
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Author: chris moffatt
Date: 2011-02-13 13:12
Yes. some Edgwares did have pot-metal keys (aka "mazak"). Most had excellent quality keywork, though like other B&H horns keywork is quite fat and clunky-looking. works fine though. A lot of horns were made without the bell ring. I'm not sure if the 926s & 1010s ever had a bell ring. Many of the Edgware clones (2-20, Stratford etc.) didn't have one. The bridge key allows a bit of flexibility in alignment because it has those little wings on the sides - again works fine.
I take it from your description you don't have the mazak keys which I think were only used for a few years during & after WWII.
You can do a search here for B&H serial numbers but be warned there are several lists most of them unreliable at best. I bookmarked the best list but of course I'm at a different computer right now but if you look through the threads I'm sure you'll find it
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-02-13 14:19
Thank you.
I'm curious what in my description suggests this clarinet doesn't have the mazak keys?
>> The bridge key allows a bit of flexibility in alignment because it has those little wings on the sides <<
Plus the critical design that the linkage is parallel to the body when the key is pressed. Some clarinets have flat or other shape 'wings' which don't allow that unless modified.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-02-13 14:25
I have a few Edgwares and have in the past had a few more; none has had Mazak keys.
BTW Chris M, while the Stratford model lacks a bell rim ring, the Series 2-20 has one (again, I have/had several).
All good clarinets, and with just a few modifications, can be excellent.
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Author: jasperbay
Date: 2011-02-13 14:56
I have 6 Edgewares at the moment, have never seen or heard of an Edgeware (New Zealand may be an exception) with mazak keys, and of the various posts on the subject, would expect to find them only on early (ser. # lower than 200,000) student 'Regent' wood models. This could probably be further narrowed down to ser. #s 50xxx - 100xxx produced just after WW2.
Your horn in question has a fairly high ser.#, surely has nickel plated
german silver keywork.
http://www.musictrader.com/boosey.html is the B&H ser. # site I use.
Chris P., in another related post, mentions the part #s on the underside of the german silver keys were 4 numerals arranged in a 'square'. I would add that my Edgeware's have many keys stamped with the square 4 digits, but many have just a 2-digit number. The key here is that the number is "stamped", with a punch tool, leaving a slight indent.
Clark G. Sherwood
Post Edited (2011-02-15 13:31)
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Author: chris moffatt
Date: 2011-02-13 16:08
Dave S: come to think of it I've seen Regents, Edgwares, Stratfords, Emperors, Imperials and 1010s with no bell ring but never a 2-20 without one.....
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-02-13 16:32
Some export model Edgwares from the '50s had bell rings.
What to look for if you suspect mazak keys on B&H clarinets are rows of small numbers raised above the surface of the undersides of touchpieces or inside pad cups.
If you have numbers (either four forming a square or two) or no numbers at all, then they will be nickel silver keys.
The B&H clarinets that had mazak keys (in the UK) were the wooden Regents and B&H "77" clarinets (the latter had ebonite bells) from the '50s. By the early '60s they all had nickel silver keys.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2011-02-13 18:26)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-02-13 17:02
So the keys are nickel silver then.
Dave, I'm curious what modifications you are talking about that improve this model clarinet?
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2011-02-13 17:10
Ser No 457xxx dates from 1976.
I have never seen an Edgware with Mazac keys, as stated in post above these were only produced in late 1940s possibly early 50's and only on the very basic models.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-02-13 18:25
If in doubt, do a scratch test on the underside (or anywhere else well hidden) of a key to remove the plating to see what the base metal is.
If it's shiny and very pale yellow, it's nickel silver. If it's shiny and silver-grey like lead or pewter (and about as soft), then it's mazak. Chances are most keys will have some areas filed after plating (plus the ends of key barrels being fraised) so you can see the base metal.
Once oxidised, nickel silver will have an almost brassy appearance and mazak will be dark grey like lead. Mazak keys also have a characteristic smell, like the smell of die-cast cars as it's the same alloy used in making them.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2011-02-13 18:27)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-02-13 21:38
Nitai, to most B&H clarinet models I:
-- Narrow the sliver keys
-- Narrow the throat A spatula and angle it slightly to the right (to improve clearance for the l.h. index finger for people such as myself who have sloppy hand position)
-- Bevel the key cup that is just below the l.h. index finger (for the same reason as above)
-- Shorten the register key spatula to get its tip a bit farther from the thumb ring (again for people with "bass clarinetist's hand position")
-- Slightly undercut all the toneholes (to reduce stuffiness)
-- Drill a vent hole (if needed) to raise the pitch of chalumeau E and F.
Taken together, these modifications usually make any of the B&H models play really well.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-02-14 04:40
Thanks Dave. I checked this clarinet and the mechanical changes you suggest wouldn't improve it for me or for the person who will be playing this clarinet, but I will consider the undercutting and bell vent once the clarinet is not leaking and is playing.
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Author: b.roke
Date: 2011-02-14 20:06
I have an Edgware that has the pot metal keys - the one with the crow's foot is in 2 pieces. Although I am in New Zealand, the clarinet was purchased from the US.
steadfastness stands higher than any success
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-02-14 20:24
And to further confuse the issue, I just saw (on that auction site) an Edgware without a bell ring, the first I've seen (though reported above by others). Apparently there are many variations of this model clarinet.......
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2011-02-14 23:01
Virtually all B&H clarinets sold in the UK e.g. Regents Edgwares Emperors and Imperials had a plain wooden (later plastic on student models) bell with no metal ring.
The metal ring only appeared in the UK on a few early Imperial 926 prototypes about 1946 and much later of course on the B12 (which was actually Schreiber made) after production of Regent and other models ceased.
The metal ring was I believe introduced specifically for the export market, and USA in particular, to make the clarinets look more like what those markets were used to seeing. And in most cases those models were rebadged e.g. 2-20 8-10 etc.
To b.roke - what is serial number on your model? I would expect it to be 5 digits or possibly 1xxxxx range.
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Author: b.roke
Date: 2011-02-15 02:43
Yes Norman - 68xxx. And as per above - the wear marks on the keys are a very dark grey. This one also has synthetic corks which were probably from much later. With a 7cm long crack in the top joint it hasn't got much going for it, sadly.
steadfastness stands higher than any success
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2011-02-15 19:05
68xxx would date it to 1951/52.
Pity about the crack as wood in those clarinets was often quite good.
Key marks indicate almost definately to be Mazac.
p.s. does the trans-alpine express still run from Christchurch - amazing ride.
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Author: b.roke
Date: 2011-02-16 01:34
Hi Norman - yes it does. And every so often it is pulled by a steam locomotive.
steadfastness stands higher than any success
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Author: donald
Date: 2011-02-16 02:48
A great train ride, only you have to then spend an hour in Greymouth. Once, on a music tour, i had to spend a WEEK in Greymouth. Oh boy.
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