 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: salzo
Date: 2011-02-01 19:10
If a mouthpiece has that designation, does that mean it is a Lelandais or Chedeville blank, or were there other mouthpiece MAKERS that used that designation?
Also, anyone know approximately when that designation was used by Chedeville and or Lelandais?
I have heard many different opinions on this- I am wondering if a Chedeville with the scrollwork would be earlier than a mouthpiece marked qualite superieure?
THanks for any help.
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Author: Chetclarinet
Date: 2011-02-02 19:16
The word "Qualitie Superieure" was ,in my opinion ,used around the same time as the Chedeville scrolling on the bottom mouthpieces--1948-1968 or so. The mouthpieces marked with "Qualitie Superieure"vary in quality from excellent to poor, with many needing refacing ,re-voicing, or both. There are also mixed opinions on the quality of the Chedeville scrolling on the bottom blanks.
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2011-02-03 03:39
I second most of what Chet said. However I would add that a decent quality "Qualitie Superiore" or scrolled chedeville is going to be better material than most modern materials.
Naturally, the design often needs to be adjusted or "updated" to perform well. There are also some of them that are "duds" or have been ruined by people who don't know what they're doing.
I have several chedevilles of this era that play very well, after having been refaced. They are much higher quality the most blanks made today and have a very sweet ring and resonance to the sound that takes little effort to achieve.
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Author: Chris Hill
Date: 2011-02-04 04:13
I have worked on quite a few of these, and the vast majority of them seem to turn out well. Generally, I prefer the "Qualite Superieure" blanks to the scroll Chedevilles, but I've found some good blanks in both versions.
Chris Hill
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2011-02-04 19:11
The word "Qualite Superieure" was used from the 1930s until the late 1960s on Lelandais/Chedeville mouthpieces and blanks.
1. "Qualite Superieure" 30's-early 40's. Golden age.
This marking appeared on Lelandais/Chedeville mouthpieces and on stencils like Bettoney, Martin Freres, Bundy Paris etc. Material is the best but some of them are poorly finished. On the "Golden Age" blanks the "Qualite Superieure" marking is positioned in different location in comparison to the later "Qualite Superieure" blanks, it goes over the bottom ligature lines. The earlier "Golden Age" version also has "France" stamped just below the "Qualite Superieure" marking. (see pic.)
2. "Qualite Superieure" late 40's-60's.
This marking appeared on Lelandais/Chedeville mouthpieces and on stencils like Thibouville Freres, SML, D.Bonade etc. Material is GOOD but usually mouthpieces are poorly finished. The "Qualite Superieure" marking appears "strictly" in between the ligature lines. (see pic.)
Chetclarinet Wrote:
>>"There are also mixed opinions on the quality of the Chedeville scrolling on the bottom blanks".<<
When you throw everything in one basket you get mixed opinions on the quality. I've worked on 4 different patterns of the scrolling on Chedeville/Lelandais mouthpieces.
1. Egyptian scrolling of 1930's
Egyptian scrolling of 1930's appeared on Lelandais mouthpieces. These are first rate exceptional blanks. These blanks cannot be compared to any other blanks that were made years later. http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/download.html?1,1623/Lelandais-1939.JPG
2. Egyptian scrolling on D.Bonade "Clarity" and other stencils. 1940-1950
To the untrained eye Egyptian scrolling on the D.Bonade "Clarity" and other stencils of 1940's-1950's looks identical to the Egyptian scrolling of 1930's but unfortunately the scrolling is not the same. I have to admit that I also made a mistake thinking it was the same blank from the 30's. Take a closer look and you probably notice that the scrolling is the mirror image of the 1930's blank. The material is very good but not the same quality as the 30's. Wide A-shaped throat is a bit too much for classical use IMO. http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/download.html?1,1622/Bonade-Clarity.JPG
3. Two patterns of simple scrolling 1950-1970?
These two patterns of scrolling are responsible for mixed opinions on the quality on these blanks. Material itself is GOOD but the mouthpieces are usually finished poorly. http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/download.html?1,1624/Chedeville-1950s.JPG
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/download.html?1,1625/Chedeville-1960s.JPG
Vytas Krass
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Professional clarinet technician
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: salzo
Date: 2011-02-04 19:54
THanks to everyone for the great info.
And thanks Vytas for the pictures. After your tutorial on the different scrolling, I checked the one that I have to see the type of scrolling.
It is unlike any that you posted.
Mine has a hexagon-diamond-hexagon pattern going around the bottom of the mouthpiece.
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Author: TianL
Date: 2011-02-04 21:38
thanks Vytas for the great information.
this thread here also has some very useful info:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=20&i=913&t=913
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Author: clancy
Date: 2011-02-04 21:48
A few of the "old timers" I have met have told me that Chedeville never used the qualitie superior, it was Lelandais - Chedeville used the Artistic Facing and Steel Ebonite markings. Hard to say for certain as any solid proof is most likely long lost.
Like Zinner or Babbitt today, Lelandais made blanks for many many makers, so the Qualitie Superior stamp and in many cases tip number below it is seen on many mpcs.
As the others mention, the quality control at Lelandais was horrible - ranging from fabulous to absolutely rubbish. I do not love working on the poor examples. Sadly many people buy the QS blank mpcs in hopes of finding the holy grail...However with some work they can turn out well.
I don't completely buy the scroll and letter placement theory to date them - would have to see some original adverts or pictures from the period to be certain of that. Perhaps Vytas has some evidence.
R Wodkowski
www.ramonwodkowski.com
Post Edited (2011-02-04 21:50)
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2011-02-05 01:05
clancy wrote:
I don't completely buy the scroll and letter placement theory to date them - would have to see some original adverts or pictures from the period to be certain of that. Perhaps Vytas has some evidence.
Since you put it this way I really don't care whether you buy it or not. Do your own research on that. I have all the evidence I need.
The hammer is being swung...and swung hard.....
Vytas Krass
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Professional clarinet technician
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: salzo
Date: 2011-02-05 02:53
Vytas-
Do you know anything about how and when Chedeville/Lelandais used numbers or letters to describe their facings?
I have a Chedeville "steel ebonite" artistic facing" which has a 6.
The egyptian scroll that I have is designated "M", and the "qualite superieure" I have, which has the "qualite..." designation within the ligature lines, has a letter "B".
I notcided in the photo provided of the qualite supeuriere within the ligature lines used an 8 for the facing. Mine has a B. Can you tell anything about the dates from the letters/numbers system used of the facing designation?
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Author: clancy
Date: 2011-02-05 03:47
No need for hammers, just wanted some proof - friendly debate...
Post Edited (2011-02-05 04:27)
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2011-02-05 14:39
Disclaimer - I hold the name mark and trademark "Chedeville" internationally)
I agree with Vytas that the earlier Chedeville mouthpieces have the Egyptian pattern (actually it is called Greek key today which may have been original to Egypt or copied from the Greeks?). I have obtained several examples from the original owners that can date them. Chedeville blanks were part of the buyout by LeLandais in the 40's so some of them carry the LeLandais logo but these are earlier blanks unless Lelandais copied the Greek Key pattern on later blanks.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
Post Edited (2011-02-05 14:40)
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Author: The Doctor ★2017
Date: 2011-02-05 21:19
Vytas,
Thank you for the insight and clarification. I would not have noticed the mirror image aspect. Indeed the older Chedeville mouthpieces have the 1939 scrollwork.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: Chetclarinet
Date: 2011-02-06 03:38
To add additional confusion to this topic, I have a close friend,formerly Principal Clarinet in the Houston Symphony during the 1950's who purchased three "Aristic Facing" Charles Chedeville mouthpieces that also have "Steele Ebonite" stamped on them and no scrolling at all. He purchased them new in 1945, when he was a student at Julliard . During a run of Camelot a few years ago , he brought me a different Chedeville" Artistic Facing" mouthpiece, without scrolling at all for me to play for several nights in a row.On the last night, he brought me a Bettoney "Artist Facing" mouthpiece to play. It was a great time for me!
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2011-02-06 16:16
Chetclarinet wrote:
>>"To add additional confusion to this topic, I have a close friend, formerly Principal Clarinet in the Houston Symphony during the 1950's who purchased three "Aristic Facing" Charles Chedeville mouthpieces that also have "Steele Ebonite" stamped on them and no scrolling at all. He purchased them new in 1945, when he was a student at Julliard. During a run of Camelot a few years ago , he brought me a different Chedeville" Artistic Facing" mouthpiece, without scrolling at all for me to play for several nights in a row. On the last night, he brought me a Bettoney "Artist Facing" mouthpiece to play. It was a great time for me"!<<
We haven't discussed Chedeville "Artistic Facing" mouthpieces yet. The "Artistic Facing" mouthpieces belong to the "Golden Era" category and actually PREDATE the Greek Key pattern (Egyptian scrolling) mouthpieces.
You mentioned that he purchased them new in 1945 but it doesn't mean that they were actually made in 1945. The WWII started in 1939 and ended in 1945. A lot of French factories have been bombed during the war. Many businesses were completely paralyzed or destroyed. I think mouthpieces he purchased in 1945 were made way before the war.
One thing always puzzled me. The "Artistic Facing" marking appears on both (before the merger) Lelandais and Chedeville mouthpieces. The marking is identical on both and stamped in the same location. It seems that these mouthpieces come from a single source and were not made by two different companies. According to Brad Behn "Artistic Facing" mouthpieces were actually made by Chedeville in the thirties.
Brad Behn wrote:
>>"It is important to note that the "Artistic Facing" and interlocking C's logos did not always appear together and they did not only appear on great Chedevilles. Lelandais, after the merger with Chedeville was also associated with these trademarks. They used remaining mouthpiece inventories made by Chedeville that had already been branded with “Artistic Facing.” This occurred in the forties but it is likely that the blanks were actually made in the thirties".<<
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=20&i=913&t=913
Vytas Krass
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Professional clarinet technician
Former professional clarinet player
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