 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ramsa
Date: 2011-01-31 13:09
I have a plastic Selmer CL300 with a barrel that has gotten "loose", and wondering how expensive a single joint would be to re-cork? It this something I should try on my own? I'm handy, but never done any repairs on my instrument like this before... Or, is it best left to a pro?
Thanks in advance.
This is a genuine signature.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-01-31 13:24
If you're just replacing one single cork (and are unlikely to replace more in the near future) it might more economical to consult your friendly repair person, as the procurement cost of cork and glue and sand paper plus the time to learn it (it's not difficult, BTW) is in the same region as a new top tenon cork, say ~$20 or so.
If you're mechanically inclined and have a minimum of dexterity, then by all means, try it yourself.
http://www.musicmedic.com/info/articles/num_22.html
http://www.musicmedic.com/info/articles/num_3.html
I gather that there are ready-made kits including glue available from an Auction Web Site Whose Name I Consistently Manage To Forget. However, I have no experience with either of them.
--
Ben
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Author: jasperbay
Date: 2011-01-31 18:48
A trick that works about half the time is to (a) degrease the cork (hot soapy water), (b) lay a damp piece of cloth on the cork and BRIEFLY steam the cork with a clothes iron or soldering iron. Don't burn the cork, or excessivly steam grenadilla wood, and oftentimes the cork will re-expand to a useful state.
Clark G. Sherwood
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Author: susieray
Date: 2011-01-31 19:32
Or you can wrap several layers of Teflon thread seal tape over the existing cork which is a very cheap do-it-yourself trick.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-01-31 20:13
If you do it yourself, or get repair tech to do it, make sure it's done with REAL cork, and not the stuff made of glued-together crumbs, which disintegrates under moisture and pressure.
Also, the cork strip should be beveled at each end so the ends overlap, and it should be put on with melted shellac, which is easy to remove, rather than glue, which isn't. SuperGlue in particular is nearly impossible to remove.
Finishing the cork is best done on a lathe.
It isn't cheap, but it lasts for a long time.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2011-01-31 22:30
You can use a wood lathe, as noted above, not the real expensive metal lathes. Let the glue dry, whatever type of glue you use for several hours. I like at least 8 hours with contact cement. Shellac is my first choice and contact cement is second. Don't buy rubber cement. A lot of people make that mistake and it becomes a total mess. I sometimes use a very wide rubber band around the actual cork when its curing. (drying)
Watch a repairman do this for your first time. After that you should be able to do this yourself. It's actually one of the easier things to repair on a horn and kind of fun.
To sand down the cork to it's right thickness and smoothness and if you don't have a lathe, don't freak out. Go to Walmart, or a place that have nail supplies for women. Buy a 10 pack of those stick sandpaper files called "Revlon Emery Boards." Buy the 10 pack, about $3! Cheaper than a $700 used lathe! I often use this instead of my lathe because I have all sorts of stuff stacked up and around the lathe! By the time I clean off the stuff on and around the lathe I could be done with setting up 3 new cork joints! For clients and schools I use the lathe because it's looks very professional. Nice and even, to the point that you can't tell that it's been wrapped. It looks like a perfect circle with no glue marks. It's really beautiful looking.
Just watch what you are doing when sanding the access cork off evenly; so there are no flat spots on the cork around the tenon. A good idea is to keep turning the instrument while sanding. Lastly, make sure the barrel barely fits on the new tenon, then use cork grease. This will assure a really great fit for several years. When replacing cork on all of the joints often the repairmen will leave the horns assembled overnight to help assure a tight fit and the glue sets up properly for several hours.
I know I went into great detail here, but knowledge is a wonderful tool when watching a good repairman do this. Next time this happens you will gladly take on the project yourself. Clarinet repair is an art just as music is too.
A few tricks. Buy NEW contact cement because if you don't use it for a while it gets really thick and you can't work with it. Nothing will stick to it. Use rubber gloves, because any type of glue, other then water based glue can be toxic. I promise you will get glue on your hands and it's not easy to remove contact cement without the use of other toxic chemicals and solvants, such as paint thinner. To put the glue on evenly new cement is the key. I actually use a broken reed to put on the glue. Then you throw the reed out and you don't have to clean up anything.
Forgive the long written "Book," but I feel when doing clarinet repair there is a right way and a wrong way. The last thing you want to happen is something falling apart during a concert, an audition, whatever. A wobbling cork joint, mainly if the cork is chipped away, falling apart, will surely cause an air leak making the horn unplayable. By the way, cork gets hard as the years pass on, It also shrinks so it's a good idea to replace them every few years. In a steady climate such as California, things last longer. Michigan, Maine, Canada, cork doesn't hold up very well. In the winter the horns dry out and so does the cork, along with the glue becoming brittle. From living in California since the early '80's I've only had to replace the cork one time. When going to Interlochen up in the northern part of the state it was always a battle keeping your horns humid.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2011-01-31 22:49)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-01-31 22:31
Ken, I'd strongly advise against using shellac to glue tenon corks on with - it requires a good degree of heat to make it adhere and once cooled, it's a pain to remove as it has to be chipped off (so you'll need eye protection to do this as a shellac chip in the eye isn't a good thing).
The best glue to use is an impact adhesive such as Evo-Stik or any equivalent (where both surfaces of the joint are coated, set aside until touch dry and then they can be stuck to each other and pressure applied to ensure a good bond) as it remains pliable and is easy to clean off wood, plastic or metal.
Here's how I'd recork a tenon. Remove the old tenon cork and thoroughly clean the old glue from the tenon slot, then degrease it well with alcohol such as isopropyl (don't use solvents such as acetone, tricloroethane or toluene on plastic instruments), cut a strip of cork to the correct width (same width as the tenon slot), bevel one end of the cork with a sharp knife (the last 4-5mm will do) then coat the underside and the bevel of the cork strip and the tenon slot with a thin but even coating of glue, then set them aside for a number of minutes for the solvent to evaporate leaving the glued surfaces just slightly tacky (but not so the glue sticks to your fingers and comes away) - usually between 5 and 15 minutes depending on the glue manufacturer's instructions.
The cork strip is then pressed firmly in place into the tenon slot starting with the thinned tip of the bevel and working the strip around and into the tenon slot to be sure no air is trapped and there aren't any gaps either side until the free end overlaps the bevel. Then the overlapping bit is trimmed and filed smooth so there's a continuous ring of cork, then you can sand it down with emery cloth to the required shape and thickness (using a lathe is best as it gives a uniform curve and uniform thickness) - be sure you don't sand the tenon rings as that'll leave you with a wobbly tenon - you'll know if you have as they'll have scratches in them and you'll have black marks on your abrasive cloth!
Check the joint goes 2/3 to 3/4 the way into its respective socket while still dry so you can still sand it down if it won't go in far enough, then once you have a good fit when the cork is dry, thoroughly grease the cork, rubbing it in well as you're going around it with your fingers and that'll be you sorted. You only need to apply a small amount of grease evenly over the tenon cork on a regular basis (instead of slapping loads on every time) and be sure to clean off any excess grease that collects around the tenon shoulder.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2011-02-01 14:55)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2011-01-31 22:55
Chris wrote out the directions very well too.
Chris, I haven't heard of Evo-Stik . Where do you obtain this?
You made an excellent point about plastic and solvents. This is why I wear gloves when messing with this stuff and I forgot about reactions to plastic. Excellent points. I can't remember the last time I worked on a plastic horn.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-01-31 23:02
Evo-Stik is available in the UK, though I think there's a Bison equivalent in the US which is probably better. Mostly used for glueing down formica or plastic sheet to work surfaces, but ideal for key corks and tenon corks.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2011-01-31 23:11
I agree with the approach given by Chris above with one addition and one modification.
1. It is a good idea to make the cork a little more flexible and compressible before fixing to the tenon. This can be by compressing in a smooth jaw vice (or in a vice between two smooth pieces of board), or as some like by gently hammering though my preferred method is rolling it with a suitable cylindrical tool (or metal tube) rather like rolling out dough.
2. I would only want to get a dry cork about 1/4 - 1/3 way into the socket before greasing especially for the centre joint which needs to be really firm.
It's a good idea to leave the joint assembled for say 1/2 hour whilst the glue is curing to ensure the finest bond. I have had my own instruments last 20+ years with no failure of cork or glue bond.
But must use a good grease e.g. as the Doctor sells.
I would never use shellac both for reasons given above and for fact that the next repairer (could be me) will have to spend 4-5 times as long cleaning up the tenon as it takes to replace the cork.
I rarely get to contact glue on my fingers but if I do it rubbs off very easily with no need for chemicals.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2011-01-31 23:44
So many clever ideas. Norman, what glue are you using that can dry in 30 minutes? You've caught my interest! I've been using contact cement for many many years so I'm always interested in better glue. As I said above you have to have new contact cement, because if it's been sitting around for a while you can't work with it.
As far as the shellac goes, I use my lathe for that. Chips off fairly easy, but who knows, like epoxy there may be several hundred types of shellac and assorted compounds that make up shellac, resulting in inconsistancy. For example some sticks are really black, others are a light golden brown. Also some flex and others simply break and splinter.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2011-02-01 00:02)
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Author: pewd
Date: 2011-02-01 02:17
Dap contact cement ; Lowes or Home Depot
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: jasperbay
Date: 2011-02-01 03:17
I believe what our posters from "the Mother Country" call impact cement, Evostick, and contact glue...... we in the colony call contact cement. It works great for cork joints, but is hard to get in the traditional laquer thinned product, mostly available now in water-based formula's that take longer to dry, and a little trickier to use. I treasure the old stuff you can still find in second-hand stores. Even if the stuff seems dried out in the can, you can rejuvinate it with MEK (better than laquer thinner or acetone).
I decant it from the can into small 'nail polish' bottles with the brush in the cap. Perfect for painting the contact cement onto the cork and tenon.
Clark G. Sherwood
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2011-02-01 04:21
Do any of you treat the cork with lanolin or paraffin to keep cork grease from permeating the cork and weakening the glue?
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2011-02-01 05:20
Jack, I haven't heard of this, but I have heard of people using vaseline. I think it may be water based so it makes cleaning the cork fairly easy. Don't yell at me if vaseline isn't water based!!!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-02-01 08:59
Use a good quality cork grease that's thick and that won't permeate the cork. Vaseline is petroleum jelly (not water based) which is too thin, so no good for tenon corks.
My cork grease of choice is La Tromba as it's like axle grease and I've used it for years with no ill effects, but the choice of good quality cork grease - synthetic and natural - has already been discussed on here. Doctor's Products (L. Omar Henderson) makes a variety of cork greases.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-02-01 09:43
... As for the cost of having a tenon cork replaced, it depends on where you live, who you take it to and how good and thorough a job they do, so cost will vary vastly here.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-02-01 09:46
I agree with Ken about bevelling the ends for the overlap. I mostly agree that super glue is bad for this, but some excellent repairers prefer to finish the gluing (the overlap part) with super glue (I don't, but don't think it's a terrible idea either).
I agree that natural (real) cork is best for tenon corks, but not for the reason Ken mentioned. Actually, some of the composite corks (e.g. tech cork, gumi cork, rubber cork, sold by various repair suppliers) are much stronger than real cork. There are other reasons why real cork is preferable.
I disagree that shellac is best. I much prefer cotnact glue for many reasons. Shellac needs to be hot, it can dry in a second and cause problems for gluing, it can make a mess if not very careful which is harder to clean later, etc. Contact glue is very strong, easy to remove if replacing again, easy to clean any extra (though usually there isn't any extra), dries very fast, etc.
Re the drying time mentioned, it's pretty amazing to me that someone feels they need to wait for 8 hours. Have they had corks fail the gluing if they waited less? The 30 minutes someone mentioned seems slow to me too. I smear contact glue on both surfaces, then wait usually less than 5 minutes (usually 2-3 minutes at most), glue the cork to the tenon, sand etc. to fit, put cork grease, assemble, then after a few minutes at most, usually less, I consider that the player can use it normally. Doing it this way, I've never had any fail, with one exception that failed the moment I assembled it, which was my mistake, not cleaning grease from the tenon (just forgot).
I used to use Evo Stik, which is a type of contact glue and what Chris mentioned. It used to be excellent. Some time ago they changed to a new formula, which I don't like as much. I changed to Bison contact glue, which I actually like more than any other I've tried (at least a dozen). Bison is made in Holland and I think hard to find in USA. I know it's available in the UK. I was told the type made by DAP is what a lot of repairers in America use and consider very good (I haven't tried it). I think it's only available in a can. I only use the types available in a tube and don't like the cans at all.
Re the comment about the need to use new contact glue because otherwise it becomes gooy, that doesn't happen when using the tube. I smear it with my finger because that is the most comfortable. Toxic... I don't know... many things are toxic. I don't sit and smear contact glue all day, every day (I do a tenon cork replacement once in a while).
I have my lathe right there next to me, I don't even need to get up from my chair to use it, yet I prefer to sand tenon corks by hand with nail files or bits with sand paper glued on. I don't like to use sand paper, I prefer a rigid tool. I sand the edges before gluing the cork, more on what is going to the be outer edge, and only just removing the corner from the inner edge. I want as much support as possible for the length of the cork, as long as it doesn't make it too hard to assemble.
Re the lanolin and paraffin, I know some use paraffin instead of cork grease. They claim cork grease is then not needed. I prefer cork grease, feels better to assemble to me. I don't know if this would prevent cork grease from ruining the glue, but with good glue and cork grease, it is not a problem. My favorite cork grease is the one made by Alisyn, followed by the natrual one made by the Doctor (I don't like his synthetic version).
Even years after, when a cork finally needs to be replaced, the gluing is usually still fine and not necessarily easy to remove the cork. If some of the cork is hard to remove, I start with a pair of pliers, with not enough pressure to damage anything but instead it's just peeling the cork. Then use solvents like light fluid or alcohol and/or a brass brush in my micromotor, which usually removes the bits of cork and glue very fast, all without damaging the instrument.
IME and speaking with others, vaseline tends to ruin the glue so I wouldn't use it. It's made of petroleum.
Gluing a tenon cork might become a bit more difficult if you find out you need an especially thick cork or even worse, you remove the old glue and find one of those awful wavy tenons that some Buffets (and maybe others) sometimes have. In those situations, I do some extra steps before gluing the cork (can explain if anyone is interested).
I hope this helps.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2011-02-01 14:30
I guess I wasn't clear about the lanolin or paraffin. I wasn't suggesting it as a substitute for cork grease -- rather a one-time treatment for the cork followed by the use of good cork grease. I found the idea here:
http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Equipment/Care/TenonCork.html
in Steve Prescott's instructions for replacing tenon corks. See the detailed step 8.
I use paraffin mostly because the first time I tried replacing a cork, I couldn't find lanolin and the box of paraffin I bought at the grocery store is a 3-lifetime supply (at least) for me (since I normally just work on my own clarinets). In my experience, I still need cork grease. I use the Dr.'s natural cork grease. I'm with clarnibass on the synthetic one. It took on a rancid smell and I suspect it of degrading the glue on several corks (on multiple clarinets), which all failed about the same time. It's one of the reasons I started replacing my own corks.
At least the last time I checked, DAP was available in a small bottle with a brush applicator but I found the applicator too large for tenon corks. I use Q-tips.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-02-01 14:58
>> I guess I wasn't clear about the lanolin or paraffin. I wasn't
>> suggesting it as a substitute for cork grease -- rather a one-time
>> treatment for the cork followed by the use of good cork grease.
No, you were clear. I mentioned some like to use the paraffin instead of cork grease just to mention that some do. In reply to putting it to prevent cork grease ruining the glue, IMO this is just not a problem if using good quality glue and cork grease. I've never seen good quality glue ruined by good quality cork grease. So there is no reason to do anything against it.
BTW if you like the natural grease from Doctor but not his synthetic, I recommend you might like to try Alisyn cork grease. It's synthetic and just as good as Dcotor's, but isn't as greasy and feels much better on your fingers.
>> DAP was available in a small bottle with a brush applicator
Found it. IMO better than the can with a large open top, but still, the main purpose of the tube is not only so it doesn't dry, but the small nozzle to squeeze just the right amount. At least for me, a lot more comfortable. Anything is mangable really, it's not a huge deal, these are just small details that are worth mentioning.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-02-01 15:32
For other UK readers who may be a bit concerned here, paraffin in the US/Canada is paraffin wax to us (table lights, etc.) - not as in kerosene which is paraffin to us (for paraffin lamps/burners/torches/heaters/etc.).
Same meaning, different thing - like pants, fanny, suspenders, etc.
Sorry to lower the tone there!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2011-02-01 15:35)
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Author: pewd
Date: 2011-02-01 16:51
> I use Q-tips.
Me too.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2011-02-01 19:15
Bob
re your earlier posts - I use the Evostick contact adhesive mentioned in several posts.
Yes they changed the formula a bit a few years back (I think it had something to do with kids glue sniffing!) and it tends to dry rather more quickly than before but still works OK for me.
Re some comment about the 30 mins - that is just the time I like to leave joint assembled after completing the recork. The glue Evostick itself only needs a few minutes (3 5 10 depends on climate conditions a bit) before applying the cork.
I use a large 1.5mm sax needle spring inserted in a simple wood dowel handle for spreading the glue, you can work this right into the edges of the cork recess and also into any small ridges turned into base of the groove.
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2011-02-01 19:37
I use the smaller bottle of DAP with a flat plastic applicator. The larger bottle with the brush I found I would waste alot of it as it dried too quickly (wouldn't close it all the time).
But the small plastic applicator is a good size for putting a thin layer of contact cement on the tenon and the cork. But it is best to let it dry for about 8 minutes (or blowing on it briefly to make it look dry) before putting the two together. Once you put it together though it is quite well stuck.
if you put too much contact cement on it and don't allow it to dryup properly before putting the cork on then you have to have it set for, say up to 8 hours or more (for a thick layer of contact cement). This of course is not advised.
I pop the clarinet on the wood lathe and bevel the edges at a slow speed. It takes literally seconds to do that. But I either use those wood finger nail files or sandpaper on a flat metal backing.
FYI, DAP changed their mixture several months back. I would get my bottles drying up quite quickly but I noticed a change in mixture last fall and it stays thinner much longer now.
cost to recork a joint around here goes from $9 to 15 USD.
==========
Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
Post Edited (2011-02-01 19:38)
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