 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarin-ed
Date: 2011-01-23 05:13
I'm currently a freshman performance major at a large university, and I'm looking to eventually purchase a bass clarinet and an eefer. However, I'm wondering what would be more beneficial to buy first. I have experience on both, based on participation at various summer camps throughout high school.
Factors influencing my decision:
Cost (a big one): I'm probably going to look for something used at first, then upgrade, depending on the quality of instrument I get. However, basses (I would guess) are pretty much always going to be more expensive than eefers, when quality is equal between the two.
Equipment: I already own a very nice eefer mouthpiece and barrel, but I don't own anything for the bass. Though, I'm pretty sure I could find a nice bass mouthpiece pretty easily.
Teacher: My college professor frequently plays on bass, and not very much at all on eefer. Now, I guess if I got a bass now, I would be able to study it with him longer. However, maybe I could learn eefer excerpts now and save bass for later, making upperclassman years more fun (? just a thought).
The school of music owns both currently, and funding will provide a brand new bass for next semester. So maybe, considering the bass will be nice, I could deal with that, purchase an eefer, and wait some time before purchasing a bass.
Summer programs: I hope to participate in collegiate level summer festivals, and from what I've seen so far, most suggest sending recordings of bass and/or eefer excerpts. Would my chances of getting in increase if I play bass, or more-so with eefer? Though, I'd probably audition on both once I obtain both.
In addition, my guess is that most summer programs/festivals have both available, so maybe I could audition with my school's instrument then play the one at the camp, but that's, of course, just a guess.
I think I prefer playing bass more than eefer, but they're both fun and challenging in their own ways. Eventually I will get both, but I'm wondering what would be more worthwhile to get first.
Thanks for the responses in advance.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-01-23 06:34
I wouldn't base instrument purchase on excerpt-learning order or festival admission.
Which do you like to play better? Which is more in demand in your area? Which can you think of more cool things to do with? If there's a shortage of bass clarinet(ist)s and an abundance of projects that want bass clarinet(ist)s, pick bass clarinet. Or Eb if it's the other way around.
Personally, I might wait until I could afford a good model, rather than buying one for now and upgrading later. Especially if you can use the school instruments in the meantime.
I wouldn't expect a festival to provide me an instrument. I also wouldn't plan my instrument-purchasing decisions around festivals. They're fun sometimes, but they're hardly the end-all.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-01-23 14:07
This may be slightly dated "common knowledge," but it used to be much easier to win a symphony job if you were willing to either double on bass or BE the bass clarinetist first. So (I would wait for more current info) I would say that if you are trying to be competitive professionally on this level, bass would be the way to go.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-01-23 14:57
Most bands have 2 (or more) bass clarinets, but only 1 Eb. The odds are therefore better on bass.
Since you like bass and your teacher plays it, I think this is the place to start, particularly if the school has one for you to use. The greater amount of air required will develop your breath capacity. You absolutely must have your own top quality mouthpiece. I suggest Walter Grabner http://www.clarinetxpress.com/bass.html.
But Eb has a lot going for it. You play in a 1-member section. You learn control and finesse. It strengthens your embouchure. There are two great books by Peter Hadcock, the Eb clarinetist of the Boston Symphony: Orchestral Studies for the E-flat Clarinet http://www.vcisinc.com/clarinetmusicexcerpts.htm#C036 and The Working Clarinetist http://www.vcisinc.com/clarinet.htm#C043. Finally, you don't have to schlep a bass and its case around. This is not trivial.
In the long run, you have to be able to play both. It absolutely doesn't matter which you take up first. If money is short, an Eb costs less than a bass. It may come down to where the openings are or which horn you find first.
Ken Shaw
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Author: William
Date: 2011-01-23 15:24
All I know is [alright, cut the wise-cracks] that I get called to play much more bass clarinet than effer. However, it just so happens that next month, I will be playing a film festival event that calls for Bb, bass & effer--so owning both clarinets, I'm "good to go". It is often more advantagious to be versitile--to own & play all the instruments--than good at only one. However, to answer your question, I would respond, "BASS CLARINET" without hesitation.
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Author: jasperbay
Date: 2011-01-23 15:30
I'd start with an Alto, since they're much more affordable on "the Auction Site", and are light enough to play without a floorpeg.
Clark G. Sherwood
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-01-23 16:33
First let me congratulate you on wanting to learn the family of clarinets if you want to be a professional player. See my website and read the article on Symphony Jobs and auditions. I did the same thing as you did, I'm the bass clarinetist in the Baltimore Symphony. I made the mistake of buying off brands first because on money but within a year had to sell them and move up, I was lucky back then to get my full purchase price back in a trade in. There are two things to consider. First which one of these you can use from your school on a regular basis and will they rent it to you during the summer, if which case you should buy the other one now and get the second one in a year or two. The other thing to consider is how difficult the repertoire is for either instrument and how much time you have to practice them. There is more standard bass repertoire to learn for auditions but the Eb stuff is more difficult note wise over all. Then which one is more difficult to learn well. The Eb is like a small clarinet, the bass is a different instrument. You play the Eb by ear mostly, sure voicing and fingers are important but my experience is that any good clarinet player can play Eb but that's not so with the bass. (though you should hear Ricardo Morales play bass, awesome) So I'd suggest buying the one you don't have use of now and in a year or so buy the other one.
When I as a student I designated about two hours a week to learning Eb repertoire and about four hours a week to the bass because the bass was more difficult to learn to get a good tone and learn all the repertoire. Once I got a good bass job I would not audition for a job that included Eb, see my website, because I love the bass so much, but still play Eb on occasion, like Mahler's 1st , when our Eb players is out etc. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2011-01-23 17:40
There is a considerably larger repertoire for bass, whether it be orchestral, chamber, band or pit than for Eb (eEfer). Bass clarinet also has a noticeable presence in jazz, if you have any inclinations in that direction. I think the purchase sequences most musicians follow are:
Orchestra/Chamber:
Bb
A
Bass
Eb
Other
Band:
Bb
Bass
Eb
Other
(one or more saxophones, flutes, etc. may intervene between Bb and bass or bass and Eb.)
In your case, considering the costs involved and your apparent limited resources, I wouldn't be in a hurry to buy either. You're only a freshman and your interests and needs may change (become more clear) before you graduate, e.g., you may decide to add saxophone or flute or ??? to your bag of tricks. You may decide you need a car, if you don't already have one. And hard as it may seem to believe now, you may decide to give up clarinet performance or music altogether.
Your school owns both a bass and an eefer, perhaps good instruments, (and is planning to purchase a new bass) and it sounds like you can have access to these, if needed, until you graduate. If you happen to go the military music route after you graduate, the government will provide your instruments. Under these circumstances, rather than spending a lot of money in the near future on an instrument, particularly one that you expect will be inadequate for your long-term goals, I think it makes sense to save up until you can afford a good one and wait until you need to own one. In the meantime, you can keep your eyes open for a good deal. The more time you can spend looking for an instrument, the greater the odds that you can find a good one at a good price.
Please pardon my saying this but I think you still have a high school attitude toward summer camps and festivals. While there are a few really good ones out there for someone at your age and level (e.g., the one sponsored by Buffet), I think your attitude will change as you get further into your program. In any case, if you are competitive with your peers, you should be able to make camps and festivals on soprano. Also, I think there's something to be said for getting a good-paying summer job, instead. That would help you accumulate the funds to buy good quality instruments down the road.
MOO,
jnk
Post Edited (2011-01-23 17:43)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-01-23 22:54
I'm not sure that's correct Jack. When I taught at Peabody, for 19 years, most of my students played bass clarinet since I encouraged it and several of them also played Eb for the same reason. In the other studio very few students, if any, took up the bass because the other teacher does not encourage it at all. When Lorin Kitt taught there several years ago he encouraged many of his students to study bass with me back then. When I taught there we offered "free" bass lessons to those interested. I could never understand why a student interested in an orchestral career would not learn all of them. I certainly could never understand why a conservatory teacher would not encourage their students to learn them all. The vast majority of my students graduated knowing how to play them all. I consider it an injustice not to do that. I know some schools like Curtis require it, at least that's what I was told. Of course now Peabody, as several others schools, don't have a teacher that teaches bass clarinet as far as I know. Very short sighted after all, about one third of orchestra jobs are bass clarinet jobs including many that are assistant first and bass and at least the same amount are Eb jobs, second and Eb or assistant and Eb.. If you don't play them both you're leaving out at least 1/3 of all the jobs available, which are very, very few to begin with. ESP
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2011-01-24 00:26)
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Author: clarin-ed
Date: 2011-01-24 00:00
First of all, thank you all for the quick responses!
I guess the most appropriate next step for me would be to look into getting a decent bass mouthpiece and ligature. I can use the school's bass until I locate a very good model (whether used or new).
In response to Jack, I do play jazz (on tenor sax), and a little bit of flute (when I have time).
I think overall I enjoy playing bass more, but I agree with the idea of waiting to find a good deal (I managed to find a barely used A for 2/3 of the retail price). I will most likely wait and see what comes up; I have a long time to think about future aspirations and what I will need to play.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2011-01-24 05:02
Ed P.,
If you read my post carefully, I don't think you will find anywhere that I suggest Eddie not study the harmony clarinets. Rather, I recommended that he postpone buying them. From his post, it appears that he has access to instruments (and, if he is at Penn State, they are probably decent ones) that he can borrow from the school. My recommendation is that he use these instruments for his study.
Given the fact that full-time orchestral positions make up only a very small fraction of music jobs available for performance majors, I'm the last person you will find arguing against versatility. Personally, I also think it's a good idea for a clarinet performance major to be proficient on piano, to develop at least one solid double on saxophone or flute (and at least a basic proficiency on the other) and perhaps basic proficiency on at least one of the double-reeds into the bargain. (And it certainly doesn't hurt to be able to sing.)
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2011-01-24 18:57)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-01-24 12:44
I fear that the first thing performance majors must learn is how to say "Do you want fries with that?" ![[B#2]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/c3.gif) ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
Ken Shaw
Post Edited (2011-01-24 12:46)
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Author: 78s2CD
Date: 2011-01-24 22:25
I have eefer and bass and most everything in between. These days I play clarinet mostly in clarinet choir or smaller chamber groups. I think you're more likely to be the only one who shows up with an eefer or an alto than bass.
I love playing bass, but have never found it my favorite option in bands. Playing eefer parts can be great IF the director will allow them to be played. I've often quipped that playing eefer was the only way I could get to the top of the section.
If you're lucky enough to play in an orchestra, bass parts seem to come up much more frequently than eefer parts.
Did someone say versatility was good? Since I got moved to first horn in our Green Valley Concert Band we haven't had anyone playing the eefer. Now for our next concert we're doing the William Byrd Suite, which calls for eefer and I'm the only one in the band who owns one. So I'll be leaving the horn section for that one piece. How's that for an interesting double?
Regards,
Jim Lockwood
Rio Rico AZ
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-01-24 23:46
Jack, what I disagreed with was the order of the instruments you suggest he buy. I agreed with you that if he could borrow a bass or Eb from his school he should do that first. It's a misunderstanding. As far as a student wanting to go into a classical music career there aren't many options other than playing in a Symphony Orchestra except for a military band to make a decent living. Of course it's only the top 30 or so orchestra's that one can make a good living. And there are very few openings in the Symphony field, that includes opera and ballet of course. Sure a few players make it into the commercial field, movies etc. but there are very few positions in that filed as well, very, very few. The fact remains that there are only a few openings available in the entire country any given year for a classically trained clarinet player, very few. The Orchestra field is the only one, other than service bands, that have opened and mostly fair auditions. What else is there in the "classical l field. If a clarinet player doesn't play all the clarinets they are limiting the field. If they don't double on other woodwinds they can't even compete in most of the commercial field. The fact remains that we are producing hundreds of players every year for almost no jobs. Where does it end? ESP
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Author: ann reid
Date: 2011-01-25 16:23
I'm sorry to sound naive, but are these posts about Eb alto or Eb soprano?
I have been increasingly disappointed to find that Eb alto, which, in the right hands (and embouchure) is a lovely instrument, is being omitted from wind ensemble scores.
If you are speaking of Eb alto it is definitely a plus to read posts affirming the value of the alto in the total sound of wind ensemble, and of course clarinet choir literature.
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Author: Gandalfe
Date: 2011-01-25 17:23
Alto clarinet will rate way down on Jack's list I'm afraid. And the term eefer is common for the Eb sopranino clarinet. Don't shoot me, I own an alto clarinet that never gets played except in the very rare clarinet choir.
Jim and Suzy
Pacifica Big Band
Seattle, Washington
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-01-25 18:32
Pff. Play any Eb part (Sax, Eb horn) on Alto Clarinet, just for kicks. Its range is superior, and you have the challenge to make it sound interesting.
I sometimes play ASII or III on my AC, just because I can. ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
--
Ben
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Author: 78s2CD
Date: 2011-01-25 19:04
Playing AC on ASII or III is fairly harmless. In fact it's best if you have a terrible tone and play out of tune to blend in with the rest of the sax section. I wouldn't recommend putting an AC on a horn part, as horn players (if you have any) are very territorial. <grin>
Jim
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Author: Jaysne
Date: 2011-01-26 12:47
I think that as a performance major, you should get the eefer. They are much more demanding than bass, and it takes much more discipline. Good eefer players are harder to find than bass players.
Generally speaking, in college ensembles the top-tier clarinetists will switch off between first clarinet and eefer. Bass clarinet is given to the lesser players or even a good sax player who know something about clarinet.
I think you should develop your reputation as a dependable 1st chair Bb player who can easily double on eefer. Then pick up bass later on for fun.
Post Edited (2011-01-26 12:49)
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-01-26 16:19
"Bass clarinet is given to the lesser players or even a good sax player who know something about clarinet."
If all you're playing is crap repertoire where the bass player is given oom-pa (which, mind you, a good bass player can really bring alive), then sure. Keep thinking that way... keeps the neurotic high-instrument riff-raff out of the awesome bass territory.
It depends on what you want. If you're looking to be the crispiest noodler and try to claw your way up through the snippy world of primadonna crispy noodlers, go right ahead and learn Eb for that purpose.
Which is not to say that you can't do great cool stuff with Eb, just that it lends itself to that mentality. I still love the instrument, it's my 3rd favorite (after contra and bass). The juvenile "bass is for people who suck at clarinet" mentality just wears a bit, propagated by the "more notes is better" crowd of excerpt-whores who spend all their time woodshedding unmusically isolated 8-bar segments of pieces they'll likely never perform. (granted, there are bassists who fall into that camp too)
That said, playing cool stuff on bass tends to require a bit of footwork on your part. Don't expect ensembles at typical universities to hand you much fulfilling bass music... it's usually the junk the lesser players or good sax players can play in their sleep. The old, established orchestral rep and most of the band rep has very mundane bass music. But there is a huge chunk of solo and chamber music from the past half century written for bass, much more than for Eb, and, at least in my circles, it's a much more prominent instrument, very popular with composers and much more commonly used in a variety of non-classical styles.
FWIW, I bought my Eb before my bass. Didn't have an interest in bass at all at the time, having the same mentality I'm complaining about above. When I finally got my hands on a bass, I fell in love with what I'd been missing.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-01-26 18:40
As someone whose favorite instrument in the entire universe is bass clarinet, I'm heavily biased, so take my opinion accordingly. I believe two things, with respect to symphonic classical music mainly, but also relevant to concert band and clarinet ensemble music (these are the only genres of clarinet playing I have experience with):
1) Bass clarinet is "more different" from Bb soprano clarinet, playing-wise, than is the Eb soprano clarinet --- so from the standpoint of diversity and increasing your overall proficiency, I'd vote for taking up the bass clarinet first, if it is an "either/or" choice. Certainly playing the eefer will help your "beefer" chops, especially in the altissimo, but it really isn't that much of a stretch for a good Bb player. Bass clarinet, however, really is an entirely different beast.
2) Bass clarinet has more repertoire written for it than for the eefer in the genres I mentioned, so once again, I'd go with the bass clarinet.
Sorry for coming in late to the party, I don't think I've added anything new to the discussion -- my apologies.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-01-26 20:38
Jaysne, we're talking playing them in a professional orchestra not a high school band. There is a lot of very difficult repertoire for the bass clarinet at the professional level. The Eb clarinet has 8-10 standard works, the bass has three times that much. Much of it is in bass clef and or in A bass as well. They're both difficult to play well as I pointed out in my above posting but an Eb clarinet is a small clarinet, the bass clarinet is a different animal. I've taught professional clarinet players how to play, voice, the bass clarinet because they were having problems playing it well. I've never had a pro player ask me for help on how to play an Eb clarinet. Any good clarinet player can learn to play the Eb well by themselves.
Alto clarinet question, the alto is never used in orchestra literature, never. The basset horn, tuned in F, one step above the alto, has been used by Mozart and Strauss. ESP
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Author: LCL
Date: 2011-01-26 20:40
I also vote with Dave S. above for BC, although I have never played an Eb soprano. I started in 1956 on the Bb soprano and yes could not keep up with the pack, so to speak, so I got put on BC in 1958 and loved it. I did that until I switched to Contrabass in the last year of high school, but managed to make the all-state band on BC and win the JP Sousa award. I believe because of my BC playing! So it is my first love. I own Bbs, an Alto clarinet, a heavily modified BC, a contra alto, a Leblanc paper clip CB and yes a tiney little Ab sopranino. I can play them all, though not with equal proficiency. I love them all, but oh that BC is the thing!
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2011-01-27 11:31
Fwiw, coming from an amateur who's a compulsive flea market cockroach, pro-quality, modern E-flat sopranino and B-flat bass clarinets are difficult to find used. B-flat sopranos are easy to get for reasonable prices because so many people own them and then quit, but people who buy eefers and bass clarinets are already serious about music and they're more likely to keep their best instruments. The basses and eefers that show up used at auctions, flea markets and junktiqes stores (where the retailers buy from auction and flea market pickers) are usually school horns. Typically they're older and beat to snot or else the school wouldn't have gotten rid of them, so unless you know you're dealing with an estate sale, be very sure you can try before you buy if you go with used.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
Post Edited (2011-01-27 11:32)
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Author: 78s2CD
Date: 2011-01-27 15:49
I think Lelia's point about the provenance of most used harmony clarinets is valid. I've bought several such instruments and they can be pretty good, especially if they've been passed through a competent tech, or if you can do your own work. There don't seem to be a lot of pro-quality eefers or low-C basses out there at low prices, but when I was looking there was an abundance of low-Eb Leblancs, of which the one I got tured out to be a good instrument.
If going for the eefer, do yourself a favor and spend the extra $$ to get a good one. Of the two I've owned, the R-13 is so much easier to play in tune I can adjust the whole altissimo range by voicing. I literally had to unlearn all the special fingerings I used on the other instrument.
Jim Lockwood
Rio Rico AZ
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Author: Jaysne
Date: 2011-01-31 13:03
Ed, clarin-ed is a college freshman, not a professional musician. That's from where my opinion and suggestions came.
Post Edited (2011-02-02 01:53)
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Author: ann reid
Date: 2011-02-04 18:53
Response to Ed Palanker: Please forgive me for being the snotty kid in the second row who challenges every absolute comment made but the expert, but I was just browsing through David Daniels' book on orchestral repertoire and I did find a piece in which alto clarinet was used, and there is an abbreviation (acl) for alto clarinet in the book as well, suggesting that somebody has, or might, right an orchestral part for one.
I am embarrassed to admit that I can't remember what the piece was, but I will search until I find it again. I believe it may have been an optional doubling.
I have recently tried to rent an alto clarinet in the NYC tri-state area and been unable to do so. One of the instrument stores suggested that I buy a Selmer for $1600 so I assume they are selling the student model, which doesn't interest me.
The used LeBlanc- are there many out there? I have a LeBlanc 400 series from the early 60's that's the most beautiful bass clarinet I ever played. If I could find a used LeBlanc that was reasonable and could be restored to nice playing condition, I'm sure I'd jump for it. If I had $12,000 burning a hole in my pocket, I might want to try the Buffet.
ann r
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2011-02-04 22:03
It wouldn't surprise me to find one or two alto clarinet parts listed, particularly in some obscure (?) contemporary piece but they are rare. Stravinsky actually calls for an alto clarinet in one of the versions of his Symphonies of Wind Instruments -- but it is an alto clarinet in F (essentially a basset horn without the extended range), not Eb.
Best regards,
jnk
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