 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Jonathan Howse
Date: 2011-01-18 13:21
Can anyone help?
I play on E13's about 7 years old, and my low E is always slightly flat. I don't really want to squeeze my embouchure but I do try to angle the airflow slightly upwards, I still can't get it quite in tune, any ideas?
Jonathan
www.paulharristeaching.co.uk
Post Edited (2011-01-18 13:51)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-01-18 14:51
Most clarinets are flat on that note. It could be much worse - almost any other woodwind is very sharp and difficult to control in its bottom notes. We have only a little trouble with flatness on one or two notes at the bottom of the instrument, and those are still quite pleasing to hear and easy to control. It's not just your E13, it's most (if not all) clarinets. And I think we're probably the only ones who notice it.
Karl
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Author: concertmaster3
Date: 2011-01-18 15:23
It's been my understanding that some people drill a small hole in the bell for this reason, or use after market bells. But yes, most clarinets have this problem, along with a sometimes stuffy tone.
Ron Ford
Woodwind Specialist
Performer/Teacher/Arranger
http://www.RonFordMusic.com
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-01-18 16:50
Dave,
My Buffet RC is an uncompromising 20-cents flat in chaleumeau E, F, F#, but the 12ths B,C,C# are just fine.
Where do I put the hole in the RC's hollowed out bell,
and how big does it need to be,
and what will that do to the low clarion?
Thanks
Bob Phillips
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-01-18 17:07
Bob,
When I get home from work tonight I'll measure some of the bells I've put holes into, and email you some dimensions and photos.
I've found that the bell hole has a much greater effect (more than twice) on the pitch of the low chalumeau E/F than on the corresponding upper 12ths (low clarion B/C). This observation is borne out by the discussion of "tonehole correction length" in Arthur Benade's book on musical instrument acoustics.
Roughly, the hole is about 1/4" in diameter and located about 1-1/2 to 2 inches from the tenon end of the bell (just slightly below the lower end of the tenon socket). Clocking around the bell makes no difference; I always put the hole on the bottom side opposite the bell logo just to make it less obvious. If you want to get fancy, it probably helps a bit to flare both the interior and exterior of the hole (i.e. making the hole slightly hourglass-shaped) using a Dremel and/or countersink tool.
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Author: William
Date: 2011-01-18 20:19
I would also be interested in seeing some of your "holy" bells. Perhaps you could post your pics here--????
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-01-18 20:26
If I post the pics here, I'll have to charge viewing fees to recoup my R&D expenses, drilling dust disposal costs, etc.
Actually, the last time I tried to post photos here I couldn't get them to upload, even after reducing their size considerably. Maybe I'll give it another try...
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-01-19 02:35
Attachment: 7 bells_hole side.jpg (173k)
I pulled out my current fleet of soprano clarinets, and discovered that I have put vent holes in the bells of nearly all of them. Here are the dimensions and locations of those holes:
Clarinet Hole size Center distance from bell tenon end
______________________________________________________________
F. Arthur Uebel (Oehler) Bb 6mm (1/4") 31mm
V. Kohlert (Oehler) Bb 6mm 32mm
Boosey & Hawkes Imperial Bb 2 x 3mm 27 and 30mm*
Boosey & Hawkes Series 2-20 6mm 27mm
Boosey & Hawkes Series 8-10 5mm 33mm
V. Kohlert full-Boehm Bb 5mm 31mm
Thibouville Freres(on Uebel A) 5mm 31mm
Penzel-Mueller Empire State 6mm 36mm
*This bell, with two small holes, was received in this condition; I did not make the holes
Note: the smaller the distance to the hole from the bell tenon end, the greater the pitch change effect.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-01-19 03:34
Slightly if at all. No more than 2-3 cents, while raising the low E by about 10 cents typically.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-01-19 03:35
I had a hole drilled in my Backun bell to slightly bring the pitch up for my break B, which of course also helped the low E too. Remember, anything you do to adjust the E will effect the B as well. The hole is about in the middle of the length of the bell. If you dare do it yourself you can start with a moderate size hole and make it large if needed. In my case it bought the B of about 5 cents, which is what I needed it to do. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-01-19 04:23
Dave wrote:
>> I have put vent holes in the bells of nearly all of them. <<
I assume you didn't try several locations and sizes on each. How did you know where exactly to drill without trying? Did you use anything but intuition?
Dave wrote (about a vent hole raising the middle B):
>> Slightly if at all. No more than 2-3 cents <<
Ed wrote:
>> anything you do to adjust the E will effect the B as well. <<
Hmm... my experience is pretty much in between. There is more effect on low E than middle B, but the effect on B is not so insignificant. Especially once the vent hole is big (or too big, as explained later) the B is very affected.
>> If you dare do it yourself you can start with a moderate size hole and make it large if needed. <<
This can be a problem. I've tried drilling holes in bells, different sizes and locations. If the vent hole is small enough it does help with intonation. At some, if it's getting bigger, the clarinet will start "thinking" the vent hole is the tone hole and will essentially play the note from its new tone hole. If the hole is still not big enough for that, the note will become very stuff. Then it will become good once the hole is big enough, but then it will probably be too sharp. So it's definitely not as simple as starting small and just enlaring it as much as needed.
I've this happen the first time I tried a bell vent hole, on a Penzel Mueller clarinet with a low E about 30 cents too flat, low F was also a little too flat, B was very flat too, but not as much as E. I guessed a location for the vent hole, about the same as the ones are in Dave's examples above. The note refused to become anywhere near sharp enough. Until it did become significantly sharper, but also much stuffier. If I kept enlarging the hole to remove the stuffiness it would be too sharp. What was needed was a very large vent hole much lower (essentially shortening the bell).
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2011-01-19 13:12
When I had a clarinet with a flat low e I was able to bring it to pitch by raising my tongue way higher than usual and no biting of the jaw. It didn't sound wonderful, but it was in tune with the rest of the woodwind section. Maybe that instead of major surgery on the bell?
John Gibson, Founder of JB Linear Music, www.music4woodwinds.com
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-01-19 13:19
Minor surgery, John. It takes 5 minutes to locate and drill a vent hole in the bell. And if later on the owner has Hole-Driller's Remorse, the offending hole can be filled. Better than not sounding wonderful, in my opinion. We should aspire to sounding wonderful at all times, n'est-ce pas?
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Author: jparrette
Date: 2011-01-19 17:16
Be careful drilling into grenadilla. It's very brittle. Drill a tiny pilot hole first, and then move on to a bigger bit. Both bits should extremely sharp. Go slowly, with the drill turning fast.
John Parrette
CLARION MUSICAL SERVICES
john@clarionmusical.com
914-805-3388
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Author: Philip DeVries
Date: 2011-01-19 17:23
If low e tends flat, but the break b tends sharp, could one possibly both pull the bell and vent it to improve both notes' intonation?
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2011-01-24 23:41
I've been meaning to ask about this for a while. My teacher has a hole drilled in one of his bells. He said that Ken Grant (RPO principal clarinet) had it done for him (or Ken did it himself, don't remember). He said Ken really liked it for resonance/intonation. My teacher (Andy Brown; RPO bass clarinet/clarinet 3) isn't as sold on the idea.
Rachel
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Author: chris moffatt
Date: 2011-01-26 01:20
all of this may explain why there are so many clarinets out there with non-OEM bells. Somewhere across the galaxy is a large heap of discarded clarinet bells with holes all over them. Probably right next to an enormous pile of single socks.
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