 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: orchestr
Date: 2010-12-01 15:29
This is a very specific question, so I don't expect too many answers, but hopefully someone can help me out. I have a Buffet R-13 Prestige Eb clarinet that is about 13 years old. It's a two-piece, which I've heard mixed reviews of, but when I bought it I liked it. However, now that I've actually gotten a chance to play it in an orchestra, I've realized a horrible flaw. Fourth-space C# through G# on the top of the staff is horribly flat. Like 20-25 cents. B and C are fine, and A and above are fine. The lower end is pretty well in-tune as well, which is weird. I asked my repair person about it, and she was stumped. She said we could go note-by-note and undercut tone holes, but I wanted to get a second opinion, first. Any ideas?
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2010-12-01 16:37
Sounds very odd. I would think you would have noticed it before playing in the orchestra. Have you let someone else play it?
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2010-12-01 17:50
Before you do anything to the tone holes, try to experiment with various speaker pipes. In your case shorter or wider than what you have. How is your altissimo? The speaker pipe also affects this.
Alphie
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Author: Wes
Date: 2010-12-01 19:56
Undercutting the toneholes generally has little effect on the second register notes and is generally used to raise the first register and to open up the sound a little. I doubt that it would be good for this clarinet.
Is it possible that the lower joint is from another clarinet??
Thus, I would try to find an expert clarinet tuner rather than a clarinet repair person as this is a strange effect, especially for a Buffet.
Are the pad heights over the tone holes too low?
Is there some significant crud or foreign matter in the lower joint bore or lower joint tone holes?
Good luck!!
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Author: Wes
Date: 2010-12-01 19:56
Undercutting the toneholes generally has little effect on the second register notes and is generally used to raise the first register and to open up the sound a little. I doubt that it would be good for this clarinet.
Is it possible that the lower joint is from another clarinet??
Thus, I would try to find an expert clarinet tuner rather than a clarinet repair person as this is a strange effect, especially for a Buffet.
Are the pad heights over the tone holes too low?
Is there some significant crud or foreign matter in the lower joint bore or lower joint tone holes?
Good luck!!
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-12-02 00:08
This does sound strange. Did you try it with a different mouthpiece though I doubt it will change anything. I agree, it could be that the register tube is missed sized. I notice you live in Chicago, I'm sure there is an expert tech with a good deal of experience in tuning, there could be something wrong with the bore as well. Contact one of the Chicago Symphony players and ask them to recommend someone. If you can't contact one contact me off this board and I'll give you a contact number for one of them, but they may be in the phone book. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2010-12-02 04:25
My ignorance must be considered in reading the following, but three things occur to me.
The wood grain in the upper and lower joints may not have the same orientation --so that, as the wood has aged, the two halves of the clarinet have become ovalized in different directions (say long axis up/down in one joint and left/right in the other). I have heard that this distortion of the wood can be reversed by re-saturating the wood with oil to "reverse the aging."
The right hand clarion of my Buffet RC tends to be about 20-cents sharp, so I pull the center joint about 2-1/2 mm to reduce the amount of "lip down" required to play those notes in tune. If you instrument has the reverse character, then maybe shortening the center tenon and chasing back the edge of the lower socket a couple of mm will allow you to bias the right hand clarion up a bit. This seems like a low risk alteration, because you can always pull out at the center joint to restore the original length --and fill the gap with tuning rings if needed. Residual problems in the low chaleumeau could be corrected by undercutting.
The upper part of the upper joint on an R13 flares wider toward the tuning barrel; and I had an R13 A that was about .005 too large in diameter at the barrel, and it was extremely sharp in the left hand clarion. Perhaps your Eb is also too open at its upper end, and this makes the lower notes seem flat if the high clarion is brought into tune. On that troublesome A, I tamed (but did not cure) the sharp upper clarion with a severely tapered barrel from Orsi & Weir (now Taplin-Weir) and a small chamber mouthpiece (I used a Vandoren M30).
Bob Phillips
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-12-02 06:13
If you shorten the tenon and socket, you'll end up with duff low C and upper G as the C/G tonehole going through the socket and tenon won't line up any more.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-12-02 12:04
Before you do anything drastic, I suggest you check to make sure the register key tube is clean. That tube can get partially clogged, even if you're diligent about swabbing out after every practice session. A partially-clogged tube can cause exactly what you describe.
First, take off the register key. You don't need to remove or mess around with any other keys to get to that one. It's the easiest key to remove -- there's just one screw on an easily-accessible, sideways post. Take out the screw with a tiny jeweller's screwdriver. Then run a slightly-dampened pipe-cleaner through the register key tube. Use the all-soft kind of pipe cleaner, not the kind with the little metal twists in it, because the metal twists can scratch up the tube. If the pipe cleaner comes out looking grubby, that's probably the answer. Then run the dry end of the pipe cleaner through the tube to dry it out, put the key back (making sure the flat leaf-spring is lined up right along its groove) and try the intonation tests again.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: orchestr
Date: 2010-12-07 14:40
Thank you all for your suggestions. I had a very busy weekend, so I apologize for not responding sooner. Let me see if I can answer all of your questions.
I have not experimented with different register tubes, though I did try cleaning mine out (didn't help), and playing without the register key on (didn't help). I do have some trouble articulating in the altissimo without grunting (Ravel Piano Concerto, ugh).
Lower joint and upper joint serial numbers match, but that doesn't mean they're from the same piece of wood, or that their bores match. I have noticed this model of Eb is longer than the standard R13. As far as I know, pad heights are normal, tone holes are clean. The strange thing is it's not just 1 or 2 notes, it's the whole range from C# to G#.
By the way, the lower register IS in tune, which complicates things.
I have tried a couple of different mouthpieces (3 Hawkins, B40), and they have the same issues. I have played other Eb's and not had the same issues, so it's not me. I have not tried a different barrel.
I am actually going to see John Yeh this afternoon, so I'm sure he will have some suggestions. If nothing else, be able to direct me to a clarinet tuning specialist. Otherwise, it's a great horn, so I don't want to have to sell it!
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Author: skennedy
Date: 2010-12-08 20:23
I have an R13 Eb that had really flat clarion A's. It turns out the mouthpiece (from a well known custom maker) was defective, but repaired by another craftsman. My Eb now plays within normal specs. Try another mouthpiece and don't assume anything.
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Author: Veldeb
Date: 2011-01-10 14:40
I've played on several Eb's over my 40+ yrs of playing Effer - currently playing on a Buffet RC Prestige... above E above the staff is so flat that rather than end up with bloody lips, and emasculating my horn, I decided yrs ago to just "pretend" those notes are written in C and take eveything up a step and leave off the "Eb" key. You have to play around with a tuner anyway to see where the really out of pitch notes are on an Eb and plan accordingly. My parts have up and down arrows all over to remind me of those notes that are problemmatic. I agree with other posters - playing Eb teaches you to really listen to other players to play in tune.
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Author: contragirl
Date: 2011-01-10 14:58
Funny, I have a similar issue with my R13 Effer.
I tried selling it last year (or was it the year before) and it was all kinds of wonky when the guy tried to play it. I never had a HUGE issue like he did, but he was also using a different mouthpiece than mine. He also pointed out how the lower range was flat along with the clarion B and C. Then he tried to tell me that the bottom tenon was broken off and the instrument was defective. (There was a light scratch on the inside of the bottom tenon, maybe from the wrong sized clarinet stand, but upon closer inspection, it was neither a crack nor a break). I was told by my tech in college that it was an awesome playing instrument, and he never said anything off about the intonation, so I dunno!
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2011-01-10 20:18
For me the Fobes Eb clarinet extension has made a world of difference in Eefer intonation and I have used it on both a R13 and a Prestige. You might try that addition rather than pitch out a horn that has excellent sound otherwise.
My Prestige is actually pretty amazingly in tune and has a lovely sound too. My R13 had a bad high E but even on that horn I could play a good E by overblowing the G# (on the top of the G clef). it is also a useful fingering for jumps.
Good luck!
Eefer guy
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