 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-01-04 18:04
Lord of The Dance
Celtic Women
Trans Siberian Orchestra
All the same.
Answer: no
.........................Paul Aviles
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-01-04 18:27
André Rieu does with classical music what "Mutantenstadl" (correctly: Musikantenstadl) is doing with European folk music - a watered-down preposteriously pretentious telegenic version of the real thing that doesn't do the original any justice, except from appeal to a broad audience.
Commercially successful, however.
Boo. Hiss. Yech.
--
Ben
Post Edited (2011-01-04 18:31)
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Author: Tony M
Date: 2011-01-04 21:30
There's a lot in this. The obvious point is that people like concerts for different reasons. I'm not going to value one pleasure higher than another. Given that acceptance of difference, some people may be enjoying the parody of a classical concert whilst sitting next to other people who like the puerile pleasure of watching people dress up in costume to perform. Then there is the question of the woman as doll (sorry couldn't resist that one).
If the only objective is getting people to pay for tickets for live orchestral concerts then maybe this is what has to be done because Rieu is doing that in spades. If the objective is to get more people to enjoy or pay attention to orchestral music then people have to think more imaginatively. When Patrice Chereau staged Wagner at Bayreuth in 1976, people booed him. But it was filmed for TV and I know millions of people, in Britain alone, watched the full televised production. That was imaginative and productive because at the time I would have said that getting a million plus audience for a single performance of Wagner was just a wee bit of a stupid ambition.
Maybe orchestras should pick the funny clothes that they dress in more carefully.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2011-01-04 22:09
For my taste I would rather spend more than half the money(I believe I saw an advertisement in Salzburg around Christmas 2008 for his New Years concert were the ticket prize was from 150€) for a ticket to a quality music performance by the in Chicago Symphony,New York Philharmonic,Berliner Philharmonic,Royal Concertgebouw Orkester or London Symphonies than to this I really have to say cheese thing Andre Rieu does.
Vienna music(Strauss etc.) is also a music I try to avoid like the hot fire. Continuesly heavy,light,light(1,2,3) beat and lots of things going on in violins and the clarinets have almost no break and terrible lots of sharps and flats(maybe it's just either flat or sharps I don't remember).
Why is it that New Years concert here in the Icelandic symphony(over 900 seats) has to be played four times in a row when most other concerts are not even sold out(well now they are mostly sold out something that began to happen after the crises and fall of the banks here in October 2008).
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2011-01-04 22:51
I don't think this is the future of classical music.
But this is fun music. It's good. I went to an Andre Rieu concert and loved it. Music, color, staging, ceremony, pretty girls and pretty boys; it's all fun. Whatever your opinion may be about the serious issues above, consider going to one of his concerts just for fun.
Wayne Thompson
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Author: Tony M
Date: 2011-01-04 23:49
But what is wrong with people liking cheese? A friend, who doesn't play an instrument, recently asked me to describe the difference between an alto and an tenor saxophone. I tried but he had a limited frame of reference so it was difficult. He responded by giving me an Andre Rieu dvd and saying that whatever the woman was playing at point X in the dvd was the instrument that he wanted to learn to play.
Neither Andre Rieu nor the Chicago Symphony, New York Philharmonic, Berliner Philharmonic, Royal Concertgebouw Orkester or London Symphonies are in town this weekend so I'm spending my $100 on a very beautiful tambourine that I've had my eye on. It will get to fill out the percussion on things I'm trying to record and it will hit the punchline on fart jokes that I tell. I am sure that the fart jokes will give more people pleasure than my slightly obsessive desire to reproduce Jack Ashford's (Motown) tambourine sound.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-01-05 00:29
It's entertainment, not for me but for many others. I doubt those that are his fans attend regular symphony concerts with any regularity, if at all. If the worlds symphonies did what he does on a regular basis the public would get tired of it very quickly. Just imagine having a whole season, or even a major portion of the programs, performed by the major symphonies in the USA in his format, they would soon stop attending because you can only take so much sugar in your coffee until you get sick of it. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: concertmaster3
Date: 2011-01-05 01:12
I, personally, don't see a problem. In a day and age where we're seeing the ongoing fall of symphony orchestra's, they play to a full house. She sang great, the orchestra was great, the only issue people have is fun of it. It IS a doll song after all correct? Written for the character "Olympia" who is a Doll in the opera "Les Contes D'Hoffmann?" So what's wrong with dressing/acting the part out? Especially as singers, with whom I'm guessing it helps them get into the role of the part of the opera that they are portraying.
And for the non musicians, there has to be some incentive to going to the concert as well. If fun and good music can be incorporated into the same concert, why not?! Sure he goes into "My Heart Will Go On" next, but hey, again, he's drawing the audience in.
I'm not saying that all concerts have to be this way, but what's wrong with pop's concerts having this type of atmosphere?
Ron Ford
Woodwind Specialist
Performer/Teacher/Arranger
http://www.RonFordMusic.com
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Author: Brenda ★2017
Date: 2011-01-05 02:13
What can we say, the house was packed.
There are other venues for those who prefer that the music be played another way.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2011-01-05 03:44
One of my clarinet students went to the Trans Siberian Orchestra concert here in Mpls about a week ago, and his comment was as follows:
"Ok...These guys were all like long-hair and hard rock wannabe guitarists who were making all the hard rock guitar movements. BUT THEY WERE PLAYING WHOLE NOTES."
He went on to say how horrible he thought the concert was. Score one for a smart kid! (I'd already had discussions with him about classical crossover which threatened to become all we had time for in the lesson!)
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-01-05 04:35
Well, the intonation of that ensemble with the long-faced doll up front was marvelous.
I have neighbors who were raised in Czechoslovakia and escaped through the iron curtain before the "wall" came down. They had a solid classical music introduction in their public schools --including music history and music appreciation classes. They don't make the pilgramiges to Spokane for the Symphony, but they have a burgeoning collection of Andre Rieu DVDs and make the trip over the Cascades whenever Andre shows up in Seattle. They know the medical and marital issues of all the regulars. If you go to their house, you're in for at least one recorded video performance.
I like the playing.
BUT Celtic Woman: not music! But I'd enjoy a coffee with the performers (if they'd take off ... the microphone).
Lord of the Dance: sorry, but even Celtic music could use the occasional diminuendo.
Bob Phillips
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Author: mrn
Date: 2011-01-05 05:00
Quote:
Is *this* what it will take to attract more people to live orchestral concerts--more emphasis on entertainment than on substance......??
I suppose somebody should have asked Offenbach that question. Writing an opera with a mechanical doll as protagonist (The Tales of Hoffmann) was his idea, after all.
You can say what you like about Andre Rieu, but at least he does his homework.
And I'll say this for him as well: While major symphony orchestras are playing backup band for Neil Sedaka to draw audiences and hoping to make ends meet, Andre Rieu puts classical music front and center and plays to sold out crowds.
The ironic thing to me is that, from the comments I see on here, it seems that the people who are most preoccupied with the visual aspects of Andre Rieu's performances--to the exclusion of their musical aspects--are other musicians. Meanwhile thousands of lay listeners who enjoy Andre Rieu concerts because they actually enjoy listening to music go out and buy Andre Rieu albums, which I should mention, contain no cheesy visual theatrics.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2011-01-05 10:05
Ed Palanker said:
"I doubt those that are his fans attend regular symphony concerts with any regularity, if at all."
Exactly what I was saying. The whole group of women(Called Hen parties I believe not sure) tend to the Vienna New Years concert given by the Icelandic Symphony and not to any other concerts of the season. They even don't know where to applause and so on. So basically they are no regular concert quests.
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Author: PrincessJ
Date: 2011-01-05 10:24
It's just something different.
People like unique twists on recognizable music, people like to be entertained.
If you want to hear the music the traditional way, go to an Orchestral concert and do so, if you want to hear/see it Andre's way, do so.
I don't see anything wrong with having fun, there's a time and place for everything.
I, to run around topic for a moment, got the chance to attend a Trans Siberian Orchestra concert and was greatly entertained and impressed with their act and musical performance.
A tacky, overly-flashy act can, indeed, cover up a lackluster performance, however I don't believe they needed it, it was just a bonus.
Close your eyes and listen, Andre simply adds the visual entertainment aspect to great music. Of course folks will like that.
Amen, to mrn's post.
-Jenn
Circa 1940s Zebra Pan Am
1972 Noblet Paris 27
Leblanc Bliss 210
1928 Selmer Full Boehm in A
Amateur tech, amateur clarinetist, looking to learn!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-01-05 10:55
It's the Classical version of Celine Dion/Witney Houston/Mariah Carey/etc. - it's music for people who don't like music who probably also have Michael Nyman/Ludovico Einaudi/etc. in their collection for dinner parties as it's effortless listening.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: PrincessJ
Date: 2011-01-05 13:05
It's a lot better than Whitney Houston, that hooey is my idea of music for people who don't like music. I grew up on Beethoven, Bach, Strauss, Chopin, and swing (tons of swing) and I've learned over that music should have something to offer for everyone, I've never been able to accept modern pop given the fact that it has something for only a select group of people in which I am not.
Does Andre have something for everyone? No, but he has something for a lot of people, many more than modern popular.
He caters to those who wish to be wooed by an act, he caters to (some of) those who enjoy classical music, and he caters to those who like pretty girls (and pretty boys). Which is a pretty good percentage of people, from my humble, peeking-out-of-cave observations.
Chris, your comment "effortless listening" strikes another note, I have to agree as certain music is for listening and enjoyment only, it's for setting the mood, for waking you up in the morning when coffee is not available, for adding texture to day to day activities.
More technically complex music, however, concentrates more on itself (if that makes sense), therefor it is more fit to focusing in and enjoying it for what it is, as an "advanced art".
There are people who simply don't want to have to put forth the effort to understand it, and Andre takes out some of that effort for those who just don't get it.
Some form of sacrilege? Maybe.
-Jenn
Circa 1940s Zebra Pan Am
1972 Noblet Paris 27
Leblanc Bliss 210
1928 Selmer Full Boehm in A
Amateur tech, amateur clarinetist, looking to learn!
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Author: Tony M
Date: 2011-01-05 14:00
I'm not a fan of Whitney Houston but I'm a big fan of reason. If I don't like something an acquaintance is listening to I might say that s/he is not really understanding or trying or doesn't have an ear for music or something like that. Plenty of us remember the boom in hi-fi equipment in the seventies when people bought very expensive equipment that looked like furniture and they owned about three records. To judge an individual in that way might be a tad uncharitable but it's fine really because we make judgements like that all the time and the chances of being right are fairly high.
But Whitney Houston sold 19 million copies of Whitney (1987), 23 million copies of Whitney Houston (1985) and 37 million copies of The Bodyguard soundtrack (1992). Even knocking off a substantial number based on the promotion machine that was behind those sales (and I'll ignore the fact that Mozart and Beethoven have whole education systems as their promotion machines) that leaves us with an enormous number of people that actually like Whitney Houston for positive reasons. They find something in the music that pleases them.
This is not about the majority being right. This is about the probability that somewhere in that 37 million there are a very large number of people that would stand up and say that this is an advanced art, I've listened to the other stuff and this is what I like.
Personally, I would listen to Debussy over Whitney Houston any day of the week. But don't ask me to choose between her and Scriabin.
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2011-01-05 16:35
An Andre Rieu concert is all right in its' place...out doors and several miles away!
Clarinet Redux
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-01-05 16:35
Concertmaster said why not at pops concerts. We do six pops concerts, 3-4 times each, per season in Baltimore, in one way or another that's the kind of things we do. Perhaps not to that extent but somewhat like it in different "POP" venues. ESP
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2011-01-05 17:17
I'm with Tony M. and Ron Ford and Bob Phillips and mrn and PrincessJ on this one. More power to Andre Rieu! (And FWIW, I feel the same way about Richard Stoltzman.) If we want to keep our musical organizations flourishing, presenting music in a way that at least now and then makes our listeners feel pleased, edified, enriched, and even entertained HAS to be our goal! Otherwise, why bother?
As to whether there is any carry-over from Andre Rieu's audience to other musical attendance, I can only cite an anecdote from my own experience. There is a lovely couple I know, both European-born and raised but now U.S. citizens. Neither of them is musically sophisticated. But they LOVE Andre Rieu. If you go to their house, they play you Andre Rieu videos. If they come to your house, they bring Andre Rieu videos.
This couple is almost unique among our friends, in that they are also first in line for every band concert, choral concert, symphony concert, play, or musical that comes anywhere near the small city in which they live. And they donate.
I don't think they go to other arts events BECAUSE of Andre Rieu. I think they go to ALL of these events because they are looking for a certain kind of festive entertainment, and emotional and spiritual uplift the best of these events provide. The fact that Andre Rieu tops their charts just tells me which direction we should be moving, if we are to keep people like these in our audiences.
Susan
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Author: justme
Date: 2011-01-05 23:15
Coming from someone who listens to a few different styles of music...
I have the Forever Vienna CD by Andre Rieu and I love the waltzes!
I don't think that many can argue that he's a great violinist and has some great talent working for him. I don't know if the oboist Arthur Cordewener is still with him, but he's been praised by critics on some of his performances as well ( from what I've read.)
Not all of his concert performances are like the one just posted, but all are assessable.
I've also read that he's really brought out talent in people that he works with...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4l3Rgq-L1M
As far as "my heart will go on," I think it sounds best on woodwinds or harp.
I like Kenny G's take on it via sop saxophone:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qzUJphkVZs
Just my worthless opinion...
Just Me
"A critic is like a eunuch: he knows exactly how it ought to be done."
CLARINET, n.
An instrument of torture operated by a person with cotton in his ears. There are two instruments that are worse than a clarinet -- two clarinets
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2011-01-07 07:45
Andre Rieu may not be to everybody's taste, but as has been said, he plays his interpretation of classical music to packed houses every night that his orchestra performs. There are not many classical ensembles that can claim to do that today. If he is also making a commercial success of it then more power to him. For many of his audience this is the only exposure they get to classical music.
Tony F.
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Author: Mom
Date: 2011-01-07 12:49
Hope you all will not mind comments from a non-musician, but I am with ohsusan completely. I am a novice classical music listener and I attend symphony performances. But I do believe the majority of people at least in the US want entertainment. They love the visual aspects of music. I don't see why hardcore classical music has to be boring. Why do orchestras have to wear only black? Why do female conductors have to look like male conductors (this is coming from a staunch feminist by the way). And no one of you mentioned how great it is that Andre puts the clarinets UP FRONT. However, I do indeed wish he would put that darn violin down when he conducts.
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2011-01-07 14:11
Hi Mom!
Glad you are getting into classical music!
Why do orchestra members wear only black? It depends.
Sometimes orchestras wear black for the same reason that stagehands wear black -- to make themselves less visually apparent as they assist in the presentation of the opera or musical or whatever.
Another reason is uniformity, and unless you are going to actually have uniforms, black is easy. Everybody can do black without forming a committee to investigate it or raising funds to purchase it. And substitutes can easily integrate themselves into the group when "concert black" is the dress code.
Another reason is tradition. It's always been done that way. It's the same reason why European and American nuns used to wear the black habit, and priests and pastors wore a clerical collar. After centuries of observing the tradition, it becomes kind of a badge of membership, a tribal thing. I feel great when I walk into an auditorium on concert night in my black long dress!
Yes, it could be otherwise. There could be a modernization of the orchestral dress code. There probably WILL be, as things change. Most nuns don't wear a habit any more.
But beyond dress, what I have always wondered about is why, except in a few wonderful instances, the conductor never makes any sort of verbal contact with the audience, nor is a narrator provided to guide the listener. You are supposed to know all about it before you come -- the derivation of the piece, its musicological and performance history, the philosophy of the present conductor, past critical opinions, etc. Even as a musician, I very much appreciate some attempt on the part of the orchestra, either through the conductor or through a narrator, to let me in on what it is they think they are doing, and why.
That goes a long way, in my book, toward making it interesting.
Susan
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Author: Mom
Date: 2011-01-07 22:20
Susan, I was actually thinking the same thing, that orchestras could be more INTERACTIVE. In our community we have a local group where the conductor tells stories about the music before they play each piece. The true afficionados always scoff at this. I guess as you say they already know this stuff. And I guess if I were sensitive or musical enough I could get the mental picture of what they were playing, just by their playing. But it sure makes for a wonderful experience for me to have the education. When we go to art galleries or museums, if we are lucky enough to barge in on a tour group it really enhances our experience. Same idea as going to an exhibit with or without the extra $5 for the audioguide. It's a lot better with the guide.
I don't understand why, with the current state of the art of electronics, why someone hasn't figured out a way to make the orchestral experience more interactive if not in a big way at least in an unobtrusive, individual way.
Sadly, I think the current status of symphony is that American audiences will continue to shrink until performances somehow get more "entertaining".
Then maybe I could get that girl off my payroll one day.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-01-07 23:45
More interactive, or at least less violently anti-interactive. There's a weird "if we're so much as momentarily made aware of your presence, audience, there will be HELL to pay!" vibe with lots of orchestras today. It's hard to reconcile "Please please come to more classical concerts" with "Now that you're here, please make every effort to pretend that you're not."
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2011-01-08 01:20
Wow! This is breathtaking. Really! You have put your finger on it, Mom and Alex, in just so few words.
The quality we are missing is "interactivity".
I love it! This is really helpful. Thanks!
Susan
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Author: PrincessJ
Date: 2011-01-08 01:55
EEBaum nailed it.
What people find unappealing about classical concerts is the cold vibes cast from the musicians, and to the every-day person, that can be very uncomfortable and distracting to the sophistication and beauty of the music in subject.
On the other side, too much interactivity can also be distracting to the same thing. How can one focus on the music, if the conductor and musicians are swaying around and grinning?
It's the small box in the middle between the "We really wish the audience weren't here right now" vibes and the "Why don't the musicians just sit down and play" vibes.
How much is too much, well that's personal.
-Jenn
Circa 1940s Zebra Pan Am
1972 Noblet Paris 27
Leblanc Bliss 210
1928 Selmer Full Boehm in A
Amateur tech, amateur clarinetist, looking to learn!
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-01-08 09:15
Recently I bought a CD of the "Sorcerer's Apprentice Moderated for Children". It's not just for children, I found out - they had a good speaker do an introduction and explain things between movements. Not too verbose to be distracting, just the essential information required to grasp the piece.
Heck, they hand out "management abstracts" of the libretto in Operas so that people can understand why exactly Madame Butterfly is singing this aria etc, so I wonder why there isn't a (sometimes) speaker guiding you through a concert. Of course, that'd mean an artist more to pay, as it should be a trained actor, not just the director or the 3rd clarinet doing some 'splaining.
To illustrate how interesting this could be, listen to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0vHpeUO5mw
--
Ben
Post Edited (2011-01-08 09:24)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2011-01-08 11:28
Hi,
Another example of interactivity that I found nice was when I saw Tosca here with the Toledo Opera a few years ago. The major leads came in from out of town, the Toledo Symphony manned the pit, and there were plenty of locals in the cast.
But what really made it for me was the English translation that was streamed several places for the audience to see. OK, I'm a schooled musician and performer but being able to enjoy the excellent staging and fine vocal work while not having to struggle with Italian "so, what did she/he say..." was great.
The opera purist might be horrified but...
HRL
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Author: Mom
Date: 2011-01-08 14:46
Another great example for me is listening to the morning show on classical KUSC Los Angeles (can be found on the internet at kusc.org) with Dennis Bartel, who is sincerely charming and entertaining. He is a great DJ and puts in lots of interesting little facts about the music. Every morning he has a "Who is this great composer?" quiz and once a week a "Name that tune" quiz. Sounds hokey but it is a lot of fun! And Dang! I am getting better! And when the real live performance comes around I will be much more likely to attend.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-01-08 16:27
YESSSHHH,
Interactivity --having the conductor or performer introduce each piece. I always tell a bit of a story about what I'm going to play. It is also important to me to know those stories
In contrast, your local, sometimes, orchestra doesn't even put any program notes in the program, just a list of titles.
A few years ago, I went to the Utah Symphony to hear Shostakovitch's 9th symphony (big English horn solo, bass and sopo clarinets, ...). The symphony's conductor emeritus held a discussion of the context and message of the music in a side hall about an hour before the performance. It made all the difference to me as a somewhat reluctant Shasto fan to know what was going on.
When my teacher played the Mozart with the Spokane Symphony, the local fish wrapper described the music and published an interview with the performer. A pre-concert discussion was promised, but no one mentioned it to the performer, and it never happened. A few years ago, a different conductor had my teacher play the Rossini ... variations, and took a half minute to explain what it is, and why he put it into his play list.
My copy of "The Cello Suites" is due on Monday, and I can't wait. (Encore material, and I'll know the story.)
Bob Phillips
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-01-08 16:38
Just me,
Your opinion is certainly not worthless, but I wish you the curiosity to find a soprano saxophone player who can make beautiful sounds with his/er instrument.
The horn has wonder. It can sound like an English horn, like a clarinet.
KG's noise says "eeeeccchhhzzzzz," when (with several month's work), he could sound like, say, Frank Weir.
Unfortunately, the instrument is abused terribly these days, and finding a practitioner who exploits is potential is rare.
Here's a sample from the '50's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0axjz0JfJI
Bob Phillips
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Author: clarin-ed
Date: 2011-01-08 21:01
Speaking of interactivity, I recently saw on Stephen Melillo's website a preview of a work which has visual accompaniment (I think Melillo calls it "visaREEL"). The composition, entitled "Last World Standing," was premiered in Austria, and brought an "18 minute standing ovation."
Understandably, orchestras have to perform the many great works die-hard fans are familiar with. However, simply performing music from the 18th century, in my opinion, would make for a very stale concert. "Last World Standing" is proof that new music can impress audiences without having to resort to pop.
I do not in any way look negatively upon the work of Andre Rieu, especially when looking at the numbers he draws. Yes, his music is light (based on what I have seen on youtube) and maybe not for die-hards, but it is a great way to spark interest in classical music. If a rock fan were to sit down and listen to a concert of Beethoven and Dvorak, the rock fan might not be very impressed. But if the same person were to attend a Rieu concert, maybe the rock fan would have an increased desire to hear more classical music. *Note: I have nothing against rock as a genre; I was just using a fan as an example.
More needs to be done in terms of entertaining (I saw this mentioned above). More needs to be done with new techniques and electronics, without getting ridiculous. And directors have to re-examine what the standard audience likes and wants.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-01-08 23:05
Hank: Come to think of it, not every opera. I played in Xenakis' Oresteia last fall, and we didn't have supertitles. This may have been, at least in part, because it was an outdoor concert at sunset, though. And the words weren't as central to the action.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-01-09 17:13
Sorry, Liquorice,
But, short of my precious 33-rpm recordings, that's the only sample of good SopoSax tone quality and articulation I can share.
Frank Weir was a British clarinetist, sort of a mundane "biggish band" player until he formed his own chorus and orchestra. He put up a few big hits around 1958.
Happy Wanderer, Shoemaker's Shop, ... Most with bouncy soprano sax obbligato over the voices.
As a kid on a survey crew, I used to fight for jukebox access at lunch break to put Weir on the play list before we had to put up with "I love rock-and-roll music."
Bob Phillips
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-01-09 20:43
Ben...
...and you call mmeee strange?
These guys may solve my problems with string 4tets!
This calls for some thought, as well --I can see how it takes a sopranino + a soprano to cover the top ledger lines of the first fiddler (That is clear when the sopranino completes the soprano's run-up (flawlessly)), but how does the tenor and bari spread the cello part? And, if 4 parts are spread amongst 5 players, why isn't there always one player tacit?
Awesome, I'll come back and listen to the rest --looking for a more lyrical passage to see if the sopo's tone is as refined as Frank Weir's
Bob Phillips
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-01-09 20:57
Bob Phillips wrote:
> ...and you call mmeee strange?
Moi? No. (being a music weirdo myself I'd nevah. Well except it's free jazz or so)
> (...) but how does the tenor and bari spread the cello part?
> And, if 4 parts are spread amongst 5 players, why isn't there
> always one player tacit?
A string can double-bow while a wind instrument can't (usually), so there's always an opportunity to spread a cello over two or even more players. Of
course, this replaces dexterity with timing, but it remains a challenge no matter what angle you look at it from.
--
Ben
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2011-01-09 21:53
This preformance is disgraceful...it reminds me when I joined to a tour (just to earn some money) and we had to play the 'Das land des Lachelns' by Lehár for 40 times...at least I didn't have to wear such disgusting clothes.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2011-01-09 23:23
Sorry, have not read every post, but just several in the beginning.
I think one of the problems in classical music that has developed over the years is a disdain for the audience. As in "if the seats are full, then it is not art- it is just a cheap sell out that disgraces the real intention."
Where did this opinion come from that "real art" has a small audience?
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2011-01-10 00:18
Most likely, Alex.
If people are paying to see him and his group, he is doing well....more power to him. The performance style may not be everyone's cup of tea, but it sure beats listening to Whitney Houston yodeling abnd bellowing like a wounded water buffalo, or Kenny G doing whatever the hell he does to a soprano sax, to name just a few!
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: ned
Date: 2011-01-10 08:33
sonicbang writes"This preformance is disgraceful...''
How do you back up this statement please?
AND
...at least I didn't have to wear such disgusting clothes.''
I can't see how this is in anyway relevant to the performance.
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Author: Tony M
Date: 2011-01-10 09:50
Why has Whitney Houston become the symbol of what is no good? If 37 million people go out and purchase a recording, can we not assume that they are are getting some pleasure from that recording? And if they are getting pleasure from a musical recording then it might indicate that there is something in the complex relationship between music and pleasure that we are not understanding if we remain wedded to idea of the sympathetic performance of old repertoire (irrespective of the silly clothes that the musicians may or may not be wearing) being the sole arbiter of what is good.
For the record, and I admit that this is not relevant but never mind, I don't like Whitney Houston and I like Andre Rieu even less, but my perception of what is good music doesn't really have a bearing here. What show ponies like Whitney Houston and Andre Rieu tell us is that people get a lot more out of music than what is accounted for in the normal understanding of musical value. So, it would seem to me, that if we can get to know what it is that people like in these grand performances then we can begin to understand more about music. And I'm not talking about emulating Houston or Rieu, rather I'm talking about understanding what people who have not been trained through a curriculum (formal or informal) like about music. It would seem to me that that is one of the responsibilities of a serious musician.
Now I'm going to get off my moral high ground and go and listen to a ringtone for 10 minutes to make amends for my rant.
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Author: Tony M
Date: 2011-01-11 04:54
With a pinch of salt. Those who know me would say that I normally don't have even one leg to stand on so I'd have to walk up to that moral high ground on my hands. And then I wouldn't be able to play my clarinet. Maybe mixing metaphors is what I'm really good at.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2011-01-11 06:46
Tony wrote: "So, it would seem to me, that if we can get to know what it is that people like in these grand performances then we can begin to understand more about music."
I have a non-musician friend who really enjoys Andre Rieu. I asked him why he liked it so much. He said that he likes the fact that Andre Rieu is a showman- he and his orchestra dress up in costumes, they use lighting and stage decor, they look like they're having fun on stage, there are beautiful women in the orchestra- basically it's more interesting to WATCH than the normal classical concert.
So maybe Tony is right- to bring in more audience members perhaps it would be necessary to take a leaf out of Rieu's book.
But do we really want to do all that just to bring in audience members? What would be the result on the music itself? Rieu understands what the masses want, but I don't think we understand more about music because of him.
"If music be the food of love", then Andre Rieu is the McDonalds. It's cheap, there's colourful decor, and places for your kids to play. But it's not good food.
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Author: Tony M
Date: 2011-01-11 11:42
Liquorice wrote "Rieu understands what the masses want". But does he? He puts on a show that is very successful. And if he has any sense, he will know that in a short time it won't be successful any more (he can ask Whitney Houston about that).
I'm not convinced that his audience is a mass, or at least it is no more a mass than audiences for legit music or hip-hop or heavy metal or whatever you want to single out. He has, at present, a very large audience but I see no evidence to suggest that it is homogeneous. My assumption, and it is an assumption because I haven't looked into this, is that he has a large audience made up of people who like him for all kinds of reasons. A large number does not automatically mean that it is a mass. What binds this group of people is their appreciation of Andre Rieu. Beyond that we know very little about them and to assume that their tastes are untutored because there is a lot of them and the object of their attention dresses up in funny clothes and acts like a fool is naive. People used to say that Jerry Lewis was crude because he dressed up in funny clothes and acted like a fool until they realised that he was regarded as a comic artist in France and the cultural cache kicked in. I don't think Rieu is another Jerry Lewis but I remember when Pluto was a planet and then it wasn't. Weren't we all stupid for thinking that it was a planet for so long?
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Author: weberfan
Date: 2011-01-11 13:13
Gosh, this thread is taking on the heft of one of the bulletin board's periodic Acker Bilk discussions.
Seems to me that Andre Rieu is a savvy entertainer who has found a niche---and the key--- to a lucrative career in show business. He presents a gala, a kind of Disneyfied version of the Vienna of Franz Josef that features spectacle, song and some comedy. None of the "acts" is too long or too strenuous for the audience. He is the genial host, ringmaster and occasional foil, but he always remains slightly above it all. He is always in charge, the learned and omniscient headmaster whose long hair and ever-present violin suggest the rectitude of a classically trained virtuoso. (He may be spoon-feeding us "lite" but you know that HE knows its sacred origins.)
The program he presents never strays from the straight and narrow: it is a tried and true variety show, hewed to a so-far unbeatable formula. Classical music, or the light classics, in his tent, create a mood that is designed to be charming and sedate and to leave audiences feeling better for having acquired or reacquired what appears to be a dose of high culture, but without the pain and suffering.
I'm not sure what the demographic is, or is supposed to be, but it would appear that it's adult, tilting toward the older end of the continuum. I presume that it is the middle-aged who buy his CD's.
It's not the future of classical music---old or new. It's neither Spike Jones nor Mantovani. It's sui generis; it is what it is.
Post Edited (2011-01-11 13:43)
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2011-01-11 14:55
@Liquorice: "So maybe Tony is right- to bring in more audience members perhaps it would be necessary to take a leaf out of Rieu's book.
"But do we really want to do all that JUST TO BRING IN AUDIENCE MEMBERS? What would be the result on the music itself?" [CAPS emphasis added]
JUST to bring in audience members?
You must be joking, right?
Isn't that the issue that we are dealing with? Why people are staying away from symphony performances in droves?
A pastor with whom I served once said to me, "The church would be a wonderful place to work, if it weren't for the friggin' congregation."
A symphony would be a wonderful place to play, if it weren't for the friggin' audience?
Susan
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2011-01-11 15:24
Hi Susan.
Actually I'm not joking at all. I don't see it as the purpose of a symphony orchestra to JUST bring in audience members. As Tony pointed out, there are plenty of other music acts that do that.
MacDonalds may bring in more customers than other restaurants, but that doesn't make their food good. There is a place for really good restaurants that sell excellent food (even if it's expensive) to those gourmands who know enough about food to appreciate the very best of it.
So I see the far greater role of a symphony orchestra to present the best possible music at the highest possible level.
Andre Rieu is doing something else, and seems to be doing it well.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2011-01-11 15:27
@Susan "Isn't that the issue that we are dealing with? Why people are staying away from symphony performances in droves?"
Are they? Have you seen attendance figures? In Europe at least most symphony concerts seem to be full. Attendance figures and financial conditions are not necessarily the same thing.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-01-11 15:59
What's cool about Andre Rieu is that he embraces the concept of the pops concert. Most orchestras I see, when they play a pops concert, it's one of a couple things...
- orchestra giddy they can play some Williams film score, then botch it because they're so stodgy
- orchestra upset they have to play this popular dreck, so it feels forced
- orchestra that's somewhat indifferent on the matter, but has no idea how to play the style of the popular stuff so it's bland
- once in a while, a decent performance. But it always has that "but this isn't what we really do" vibe.
Many pops concerts feel unnatural, or feel like an obligation. Rieu presents pops concerts in a way to be celebrated. His concerts are how every orchestra's pops concerts should be. For all the orchestras that play only serious concerts and no pops, I don't find it terribly out of line that he plays only pops and no serious.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2011-01-11 22:46
Susan- thanks for the links. The Knight study is very interesting. It will take me some time to study the 129 pages in detail, but a quick read through has shown me that in no place does it actually show figures reflecting a decrease in audience attendance figures. It's only a 2 year study, so it doesn't show any historical audience attendance figures at all. What the study does show is that the 15 studied local (American) orchestras have a high level of untapped potential audience members, which is actually good news. The hypothesis of the study is that "there are many adults with connections to classical music who do not regularly attend concerts by their local orchestra."
Douglas Dempster's study (also quoted in the partialobserver) shows that the base of people interested and familiar with classical music has grown considerably with the spread of electronic media such as CDs. After a long discussion of orchestral economic history, it also says that: "there’s something wrong with the assumption that the orchestral industry is a “stagnant service” industry. In fact, if we take the theory seriously, it would be something of an economic enigma that there is anything like a 150-year-old orchestral industry at all."
The only quote about decrease in audience attendance that I could find from your links, was in the partialobserver article itself. Which was quite odd, because the links that they provided didn't back up their claim, and they don't provide links to any studies that do.
I plan to read the Knight study in more detail, especially because they do come up with some concrete ideas about how to get more adults who already are interested in classical music to actually attend more concerts. Fortunately, none of their suggestions involve playing Strauss waltzes in silly costumes.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-01-11 22:59
I'm all for playing Strauss waltzes in silly costumes. However, Rieu's costumes are not significantly silly for my liking, falling in the tacky middle ground between serious and awesome. :P
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Tony M
Date: 2011-01-12 01:08
Were you thinking of something like Bootsy Collins meets Strauss on the Mothership? Might be a winner.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-01-12 05:23
WELL,
I'm just back from the neighbors: Good Czech food and 2-hours of Andre' Rieu.
Here's my fresh from the DVD take:
The performance is for the audience.
There is a whole lot of romance going on in the audience. Couples have heads on shoulders, shoulders-to-shoulders, and hands in hands.
Rieu promotes his orchestra as 'the happiest.' In one cut-in bit, the whole band --in the clothing worn in the recorded performance are partying in a beer garden, clanking steins in various degrees of fullness --as though they really were drinking together.
The cellists "flirt with on another," and the violinists "chair dance" while performing. (Phooey, I'd be counting measures like mad,...)
No staid black camo-band clothing. The ladies (and there are lots of them) are in "Empire" dresses.
Heck, he comes within 400 miles of here, maybe if the Spokane Symphony hasn't consumed all of my travel and admission money, I'll go see him next year.
Our hosts know almost every nuance (in National Inquirer detail) about AR and his band: his inner ear infection of August 2010, the new violinist, that the clarinetist (who doesn't take much mouthpiece and doubles on bagpipes and guitar), ...
Groupies.
Bob Phillips
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2011-01-12 14:37
Well, Andre Rieu is a Rock Star, to be sure.
A few years back, the Columbus (Ohio) Symphony Orchestra had a music director named Alessandro Siciliani. He was, as orchestra directors go, also a bit of a Rock Star.
He sported red bowties and pocket handkerchiefs (on the podium), engaged the audience in conversation during the performance (between numbers, of course), and was quite expressive in his conducting style.
Audiences loved him, and attendance at the symphony, as well as its fiscal health, improved appreciably. There was, however, a group who didn't like his style (some inside the orchestra), and after a very rancorous battle, they prevailed in getting him fired.
Since that time, the orchestra's fortunes have deteriorated markedly, with reduced attendance and revenues leading to reduced seasons, reduced compensation, and reduced numbers of musicians hired. It has been for the past several seasons, an organization teetering on the brink of oblivion.
From the outside observers perspective, it appears that the orchestra shot themselves in the foot (or perhaps the head) when they fired a popular director because he didn't live up to the stuffy, hyper-serious image some traditionalists have about the symphony.
Susan
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The Clarinet Pages
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