 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2010-12-30 02:27
Something I've wondered about for some time, so here goes.
I have somewhat of an over-bite, so I am getting a better sound lately by holding the clarinet closer to my body than I used to. I also can reach the lower altissimo notes (C# through F, at least) with better facility and better sound than by holding it at a greater angle.
Now what I am wondering is do people with over-bites tend to play better with a more open mouthpiece than people with under-bites, or vice-versa. Or, does over-bite/under-bite have anything to do with open vs. closed mouthpieces?
It seems to me that it would make some difference, for I find that holding the clarinet nearer my body requires the top teeth to be applied a shorter distance down the mp than holding the clarinet out at a larger angle from the body, thus having less mp in one's mouth. It has taken some getting used to (I use a Vandoren 5RV Lyre a bit more than my M-13 Lyre, but both are relatively closed mps I believe), as I feel more comfortable with more mp in my mouth.
CarlT
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Author: kdk
Date: 2010-12-30 02:53
To make sure I understand what you mean by an "overbite" - which teeth are more forward? Bottom or top?
Usually I read about players with * under-bites* - top teeth are forward and come down more than "normal" in front of the bottom teeth - playing more vertically because the mouthpiece naturally falls downward toward their bottom jaw. If your over-bite is the opposite of this, I'm not sure I can picture why playing with the clarinet closer to your body would be more comfortable.
In any case, where your top teeth fall on the beak of the mouthpiece isn't necessarily an indicator of how much reed you're taking on the bottom. If your instrument position is closer to your body - i.e. more vertical - the more acute mouthpiece angle will certainly result in your teeth being closer to the tip, but you still may be - probably are - taking a good deal of reed in. The amounts would be more equal only as you point the instrument out more toward horizontal.
I find that reeds feel less resistant as I lower the angle of the mouthpiece. I've always felt it was because gravity was pulling the reed more firmly against my lower lip and teeth, creating a greater degree of natural pressure than when I hold the instrument up and more horizontal.
Karl
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2010-12-30 03:09
Karl,
I double-checked the definition of overbite, and it is where the upper teeth go out and over the bottom teeth to some degree (underbite would be the opposite). So I do have an overbite.
If the bottom teeth/lip serve as a fulcrum for the mp, and that point is held stationary, it would seem to me that the upper teeth would have to come back closer to the tip of the mp the closer the clarinet is to the body; therefore, less mp in the mouth. What am I missing?
Conversely, if the clarinet is held away from the body more (people with underbite, say), then automatically, the upper teeth would do farther away from the tip of the mp; therefore, placing more mp in the mouth.
In order for the same amount of mp remain in the mouth, the fulcrum point on the lower lip would have to change, and that's a no-no, right?
At any rate, it just seems that there would be some difference in open vs. closed mps on people with overbites as opposed to people with underbites, perhaps not enough to worry with, but I am very curious about this.
CarlT
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2010-12-30 09:13
I think biting has nothing to do with tip opening. Rather you have to accomodate to different facing length.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2010-12-30 12:41
CarlT wrote:
> Karl,
>
> I double-checked the definition of overbite, and it is where
> the upper teeth go out and over the bottom teeth to some
> degree (underbite would be the opposite). So I do have an
> overbite.
>
OK - just wanted to be sure we were thinking about the same thing.
> If the bottom teeth/lip serve as a fulcrum for the mp, and that
> point is held stationary, it would seem to me that the upper
> teeth would have to come back closer to the tip of the mp the
> closer the clarinet is to the body; therefore, less mp in the
> mouth. What am I missing?
Nothing. You're right. But it isn't the position of the upper teeth that's important, it's where the fulcrum - the lower teeth - is on the reed. Your lower teeth are not only farther back, they are also lower, and the reed is in a more or less (depending on what angle is comfortable for you) vertical. The lower teeth will contact the reed at a lower level than your uppers do.
>
>
> In order for the same amount of mp remain in the mouth, the
> fulcrum point on the lower lip would have to change, and that's
> a no-no, right?
>
Well, the fulcrum stays (or can stay) more or less the same while your upper teeth travel up the beak (toward the tip). You're really rotating the mouthpiece against the lower teeth, not necessarily moving it in or out.
Try checking where your lower lip touches the reed when you're in a comfortable position. It isn't pinpoint accurate, but you can get an idea by putting the mouthpiece in playing condition and licking the reed down to your lip with enough saliva to see where it stops when you examine the reed. There will be a lot more reed in your mouth than there is beak on top.
> At any rate, it just seems that there would be some difference
> in open vs. closed mps on people with overbites as opposed to
> people with underbites, perhaps not enough to worry with, but I
> am very curious about this.
>
The bottom line is that the amount of beak you take in is not an issue and you should probably just not pay attention to it unless it's slipping out from under your teeth. Set the reed where you want it, bring the clarinet to the position where it's comfortable relative to your body, and let your top teeth fall wherever they fall. It's only an opinion, but I know too many people with all kinds of dental and jaw structures who play on very close, long facings, to think that there's a necessary relationship.
Karl
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Author: HCR
Date: 2010-12-30 21:25
I have a moderate overbite, myself. And I was told ages ago by a teacher, a clarinetist himself, that I should push my lower jaw forward, to even out the teeth when playing. I soon got into the habit, and it worked well in getting a more classical tone (my idol was Cioffi) -- until impacted wisdom teeth interfered for a time. Has anybody else been told that by a teacher: push the jaw forward to even the bite? Interestingly, when I switched recently to Forestone reeds, I found I got my best classical sound on them -- lower jaw still thrust forward -- with the clarinet held a little closer to vertical, say at a 35-degree angle to the body.
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Author: Brent
Date: 2010-12-31 01:41
I have a bit of an underbite--my upper and lower teeth in the front meet exactly (In a "normal" bite the front teeth are slightly in front of the lower teeth). I tend to hold the clarinet out a little farther than most clarinetists i know, presumably in compensation for the underbite. In only one instance was it even mentioned by a teacher. When i explained and he saw the underbite, he said "Oh, I see" and that was the end of it. It would seem to me to be unnatural to put your jaw in a position other than it's normal position when playing, but if it works for you, i'm not going to disagree. I don't think i'd steer a student in that direction, though, unless nothing else worked.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2010-12-31 15:48
It seems to me that the critical things are:
--where the lower lip "pillow" presses against the reed. That should be just about where the reed leaves the table so that lip pressure affects the reed's vibration --and should let as much of the reed free to "flap" against the lay as practical. When I raise and lower my instrument, it affects the amount of reed in my mouth, so a "chonk" adjustment is required --and a continual awareness of where the reed sits on my lower lip.
and,
--how the airstream flows into the tip and edges of the reed.
I have a ragged lower teeth and about a 3-mm overbite, and my sound is better when I hold the clarinet further away from my body than I used to. (This has occurred within the last few months.) Doing this has also called attention to the need to raise the back of my tongue ("voicing"? getting the air "bent" into the mouthpiece")
Raising the bell, lowers the tip of the reed toward the tip of my tongue and helps my tonguing.
Bottom line, I think one has to experiment with the clarinet-to-body angle (and head nod amount) to find the best playing position.
I also think that the clarinet's position is very important.
Bob Phillips
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Author: clarinetcase
Date: 2010-12-31 19:49
I definitely have an overbite and had all kinds of problems until I started using a Grabner K14 mouthpiece which worked wonders for me. I did explain my problems and the mouthpieces I'd tried and what the results were before a mouthpiece was recommended for me. Other players I've kmow who have noticeable overbite tend to use a medium close tip with a medium facing. That being said, everyone is different. Mouth formation and how you deal with it does affects playing. (I was told to move my bottom jaw forward - it caused my lower jaw to dislocate - a real detriment to playing. I also use a mouthpiece pad to keep my teeth from slipping.)
[amateur now, local part-time pro in my youth]
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Author: grifffinity
Date: 2010-12-31 20:13
I have an overbite...and switching to double lip helped. I find it aligned my upper and lower teeth more naturally than doing single lip and forcing my lower jaw forward (which was tiring).
I use a Gennusa 17 mm length facing with a 1.01 tip opening. I find I have problems controlling the upper register with a large tip opening.
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