 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Elifix
Date: 2010-11-20 17:18
Hi,
I was just wondering, what is the difference between the 'original' reforms (those by Wurlitzer, Schwenk & Seggelke etc) and those by Yamahas?
The website for Wolfgang Dietz clarinets also states a new 'Hybrid' Bohem clarinet in addition to the Reforms that he makes.
http://www.dietz-klarinetten.de/boehm_klarinetten.html
Can anyone explain like in detail the difference between them? Including mouthpieces et cetera?
My own guess is that the Hybrid Bohems uses French mouthpiece instead of German mps that Reforms needs?
Those 'originals' = German bore, mps, reeds + French fingering system + additional keywork from German system right?
But I read as well, that the fingerings differs on Wiki... quite confused...
My story goes (cut short) : Tried a german mp on Buffet (i know they dont fit) but found it so much easier to blow on german mps with regards to air flow, articulation, dynamics et cetera. It literally just felt alot better and just *click* suited me better. So, am now more curious about reforms but where I am from, Reforms are very rare (really rare) and it is quite ridiculous for me to travel (13hours + by flight) all the way to germany / austria to try them out...
Thanks.
Post Edited (2010-11-20 17:20)
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Author: donald
Date: 2010-11-20 19:12
I can't really answer your questions definitively, but one thing i will say- it's a myth that all Reform Boehm clarinets have a "German system" type bore that will match an Oehler system mouthpiece (and, for that matter, German makers have a wide variation in bore design for the Oehler type models).
Some RB clarinets ARE just this- German bore/mouthpiece with Boehm based keywork, but others have a bore that is neither typically German or French. The original Wurlitzer RB concept introduced extra venting to the Boehm system, to some extent to compensate for the different bore (lower joint needs more venting as it stays narrower for longer) but also so that timbre/intonation can be manipulated. I've heard Wurlitzer talk of the concept that with two vent holes for a note, one tone hole can primarily determine pitch, and the other used to change timbre (obviously, it's not as simple as this). The maker can keep to a bore dimension that is ideal for timbre, and can now adjust for pitch/resistance/clarity using the two toneholes.
I am just passing on what I have heard discussed by instrument makers (I have spoken with Steve Fox, Luis Rossi and representatives of Wurlitzer over the years). It's clearly a complicated topic, and what i've written above considerably simplifies the issues involved but illustrate that the RB clarinets are more complex than just "German Bore with French key system" as some believe.
There is also other weirdness afoot- I know of two very accomplished and successful orchestral performers (one is Phil Green who has just played in a sell-out tour of Europe with the NZSO) who play Wurlitzer mouthpieces designed for the Reform Boehm model... on Buffet clarinets. Theoretically this should create an acoustic mismatch, but somehow it works. And Phil Green has excellent intonation- probably one of the most consistently "in tune" players i've heard over the years.
I know that a number of their students have tried this out, I'm not sure how many of them still use this set up, but if you contact Phil via NZSO he may be able to advise you on a model mouthpiece that he finds works. He plays on Tosca clarinets.
hope this was helpful
dn
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2010-11-20 19:12
The Reform Boehm was perfected by Fritz Wurlitzer over 60 years ago, and the instruments made by H. Wurlitzer in Germany are still made in the same exacting family tradition.
They have a German bore, using mouthpieces designed specifically for German bored instruments, though some of our mouthpiece models (such as the 3WE) are made with a facing to fit Vandoren V12s.
Instruments may be tested by appointment either at the Wurlitzer workshop in Neustadt an der Aisch, Germany, or at the Wurlitzer Clarinets America studio in Olney, Maryland, USA.
If we can be of any help to you, please feel free to contact us! You can access our website through the link at the bottom of this post, or feel free to email me personally.
All the best,
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: donald
Date: 2010-11-20 20:21
So, by saying "they have a German bore" you intend to suggest that there is "one" German bore? My late 1960s Wurlitzer RB pair had a bore very different from a German system pair they were compared with (can't remember the maker). In the 1980s Wurlitzer specified a different mouthpiece for RB models, why would they do this if they had the same bore? French clarinet makers can't agree on one "French bore" so why would this be the case for the Germans (especially considering the number of smaller workshops producing high end custom product).
I don't suggest that the instruments you sell are not excellent, I owned a pair myself that had the most beautiful tone of any instrument I've played, but it would seem you simplify what is not an uncomplicated topic.
dn
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2010-11-20 23:39
Thanks, Donald.
My goal was simply to give the OP some basic, solid information and ability to contact us if desired, not to enter into what would certainly be a detailed discussion of the subtle differences between various makers and models. Others will have more things to add to the discussion, certainly.
Having said this, you are right that there are important and subtle differences between instruments. I recently had the opportunity to play three generations of Wurlitzer Reform Boehms--my own set of Fritz's from the early '50s, a set from the mid-80s made by his son Herbert, a set from about four years ago and a set of current Artist model 185s made by the next generation of the family. While they all blend with remarkable consistency, I can definitely notice subtle differences. The bore of the current 185s seem to return to the larger, more powerful bore of the old Fritz's while maintaining the tone color and keywork of the later Herberts. It isn't the policy of the Wurlitzer family to release comparitive bore measurements, but the generalizations I've given above are accurate.
Having said this, my point was a basic one: currently Wurlitzer is selling German bore mouthpieces to go with the Reform Boehm.
When was your set made? Were you the original owner, or did you get them second hand? If we can be of any help, feel free to contact us.
All the best,
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Elifix
Date: 2010-11-22 11:17
What about the keywork?
In the above, it was stated that some RBs are simply German bore/ mps with French keywork.
I have seen in pictures in RBs maker's website and they feature alot of additional keys like on the 'middle C' (additional ring and a smaller whatever that thing is called).
In this case, do their fingering system change as well?
I suppose like what donald suggests, if (for example) I bore out my Chadash barrel to suit a German mp, then my clarinet would also quite qualify for a 'quasi-RB' ? (Just making sure I understand what you are saying)
I thank you all for the response and I suppose it is better for me to see for myself personally and test out the instruments so that I could understand better.
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Author: Lam
Date: 2010-11-22 11:58
Hello,
I am not sure about Wurlitzer, but other reform boehm certainly has a bore that is to some extent different to a traditional german bore. But it seems that the Seggelke one is with German bore, so in his website, he stated that is "klarinette Boehmsystem mit deutsche bohrung", not "reform boehm". and also Otmar Hammerschmidt has stated that their Bohem system clarinet with the exact bore design as their Vienna system clarinet. so its better not to call them Reform boehm, but Bohem clarinet with German/Vienna bore, or German/Vienna clarinet with French keywork. LOL.
for the keywork, there are usually 2-3 models for them, the cheapest one is the same keywork as a buffet(6 rings), than the little more expensive one with a e-flat lever, and the most expensive one with 7 rings, with fork b-flat on left hand (the ring that you mentioned about the middle C with the venting hole for fork b-flat), and roller on right hand little finger, and also the low e-f improvement (right hand thumb key).
So, the first 2 models have similar keywork as a Buffet, but the most expensive model (eg. Wurlizer No.185) resembles more similar to a German system keywork.
For the Yamaha, I guess they would have modeled on/copy the Wurlitzer reform(otherwise how could they know how to manufacture it), just as they have modeled on the Wurlitzer 100Cs for their own oehler system clarinet.
and surely there are different kind of german bore, for example, if you ordered a german system clarinet, you could specify to the maker that you wish a narrower bore, a wider bore, or even a more wider Vienna bore. and as Donald has pointed out, different makers have their own design and measurements of bore too, just as French clarinets.
Post Edited (2012-03-10 12:09)
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2010-11-22 20:48
From the Wurlitzer Clarinets America website:
"Wurlitzer’s Reform-Boehm, like the Full Boehm before it, has 20 keys and 7 rings. This means there are no less than seven fingerings for clarion B-flat, each with its own subtlety of tone-color. Likewise there is a fully improved F#-G# trill key on the Wurlitzer Reform-Boehm, along with a fork G# option. The double-speaker key enables perfect intonation and fullness of pitch to throat B-flat, and the throat tones do not need resonance fingers to sound fully. The Wurlitzer Reform-Boehm also corrects the glaring and inexplicable omission of the opposing clarion E-flat key from mass-produced clarinets, also including rollers between E-flat and C."
The fingering system of the Wurlitzer Reform Boehm is almost identical to that of the mass produced French Boehm instruments, though as mentioned, there is no need to use "resonance" fingerings for the throat tones, as they are resonante enough without them. There are also some different altissimo fingering options. Besides this, the Wurlitzer Reform Boehm offers improved fingering solutions for many moments of the standard repertoire.
For more information on this, please consult our website:
http://wurlitzerclarinetsamerica.com/learn/definition.html
Regarding bores, the Wurlitzer family does not release specific bore measurement information on their instruments.
As far as boring out your Chadash barrel, I have no opinion, except that no matter what you do to a mass produced French instrument or barrel of another manufacturer, you will not succeed in turning it into a Wurlitzer Reform Boehm. In my opinion, no one has ever succeeded in making an instrument to equal theirs.
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: donald
Date: 2010-11-23 07:17
No one believes me when i write this (it has been mentioned on this forum before) but Phil and James Fry do not use a specially designed (or re-bored) barrel with the Wurlitzer mouthpieces they play (on Buffet clarinets)
I swear on a stack of bibles that 1) i am not making this up, and 2) i am not insane. These two players are very accomplished professional players, both of whom have traveled and performed internationally.
dn
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Author: donald
Date: 2010-11-23 07:25
btw my experience with Yamaha Reform Boehm clarinets has been that they have a more simple mechanism than Wurlitzer, a tone quality that is not as "ideal" for me, but more accurate intonation. The mechanism I played was very similar to a standard Boehm, with the addition of 1) throat B flat resonance mechanism 2) double venting for G/D (which appears as a double hole for the F/C key on the lower joint) 3) left hand little finger E/A flat key and 4) a mechanism similar to the "acton vent" that allows altissimo E flat to be played with the middle finger of the right hand (rather than having to use the chromatic fingering as on standard Boehm).
dn
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-11-23 07:44
>> throat B flat resonance mechanism <<
Just curious, can you explain more specifically what this was and if you found it helped anything? I've a clarinet (not the model you are talking about) with something like this, I think it was an extra vent hole, can't remember exactly. That clarinet had possibly the worst throat Bb of any clarinet I've played, maybe the only one even worse was the same clarient without the extra mech.
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Author: donald
Date: 2010-11-23 08:44
I honestly can't remember whether the Yamaha B flat mechanism was an "extra venting" type mechanism (like the stubbins) or an exchange mechanism (as is often on student Bass clarinets) where an alternate hole is opened... My Wurlitzer RB clarinets however had the former- an extra venting hole was open for throat B flat, but was closed when the thumb ring was closed. This worked very well- i must say that it didn't always "feel" good, but whenever I heard someone else play throat B flat i was very impressed with the tone.
dn
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Author: Elifix
Date: 2010-11-23 13:20
Thanks,
I plan to go germany next year or so to look at instruments but of course, I didnt want to encounter issues like not knowing the difference in fingerings stuff = cannot properly test the instrument = money wasted for the trip.. so at least now I understand slightly better...
Of course I wont bore out my chadash barrels and I doubt my repairman (he is very good) has reach that level to do so complicated stuff.
Donald, when u mean NZSO do u mean New Zealand? Well, there are alot of SO with similar names...
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Author: Alex Eich
Date: 2010-12-28 21:07
Well, I'll throw my two pennies worth in.
Firstly, RE Phil Green and the NZSO (New Zealand Symphony Orchestra, from all the way down under), I've been lucky enough to have some tutelage from the man himself and can confirm Donald is indeed correct (i.e. not a liar or insane :P ); he plays a combination of German and French style equipment that works together flawlessly. Having heard him both up close and from the distance of the furthest reaches of a concert hall, I can safely say he is the best clarinetist I've heard live and in the top 3 of all recorded players, due to his ability to create an extremely pure yet beautiful tone and brilliant technical ability. Oh, and then there the way his sound starts - pop like, no wait, just an immediate, perfect note. I don't feel comfortable giving out the exact details of his setup (which is absolutely unique) due to it being his own intellectual property that he spent a considerable amount of time working out - it's not mine to give away, but I will can say that it can be done.
As far as the "hybrid" reform boehm is concerned, I believe that is probably going to be very similar to Yamaha's CSG range of clarinets (which I play). They have a very similar bore to the reform Boehm or German system clarinets (i.e. they have a similar form - very short reverse taper near top, long straight section then short flared section at the end) and also share the other systems' uber short (9mm shorter) barrel and elongated top joint which has the added bonus that you can never bend/graunch the register key when putting the barrel and m'piece onto it These "hybrids" do not require the special reform boehm m'pieces/german m'pieces and reeds - they can be played (perfectly) with a French mouthpiece and regular reeds. Also, it has does not have the extra keys/features like proper reforms do - they do not have the extra vent keys Wurlitzer's and the other original makers have that vastly improve some notes' intonation and tuning.
My opinion is, if you can afford it, go for a full and proper reform boehm like a Wurlitzer (n.b. I'm not being payed to say this :P ). They should have much better intonation than others with the many innovations they've incorporated into their horns. If you can't afford it (which I really wouldn't blame you for - you do need to be prepared to give them at least one of your legs, both if you want a pair) and want a good, safe bet, try the Yamaha CSGs. While they are not proper reform Boehm systems they incorporate many of their good features and give you at least part of the sound and feel you're after. In short, they can help give you a foot in the door in the rather kinky back-alley of players that like the German sound but reside elsewhere. The CSG's have much of the power and fullness of sound of the German systems, but you can retain your normal fingerings and can still blend with conventional horns in a section while adding a different colour to the overall sound. Or you could give the link you first posted above a go. If you do, let us know how you get on. I don't know where you're at in your career so can't really help more than that.. I'm a student, and hence on my current budget (which involved lifting cushions off of the couch to find a few cents) Wurlitzers just weren't an option, but hopefully once I've finished all my letters in a couple of years time, I'll (try) get a good job and then put in my deposit with Mr. Seddon and the good people at Wurlitzer.
Cheers,
Alex
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2010-12-28 22:03
LOL---I play on Wurlitzers and still have BOTH legs! But I remember being a stundent, too, on a very limited budget--and then playing professionally in America, where there have been some very old cultural barriers to German clarinets. The good news, financially, is that once the Big Switch is made, it's actually pretty economical in other ways--you never have to buy another instrument and you don't have to buy barrel after barrel after barrel and mouthpiece after mouthpiece hoping to find some way to improve your horn (sorry barrel & mp makers of the world). Over the years, those things add up to quite a chunk of change.
Most importantly, though, is finally getting The Sound.
Smart post, Alex: Keep the dream alive!
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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