 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: fargus
Date: 2010-12-24 19:55
Hi
I have a small problem that just started happening today:
When I go from the middle B (just over the break) to the B an octave higher the higher B is sharp or doesn't sound at all really. I noticed that if I push the second octave key closed while playing the higher B sounds perfect. So it seems the problem is going from one register key to the other. Any suggestions?
Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays
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Author: fargus
Date: 2010-12-24 20:10
This excerpt from an earlier post sounds like my problem..
'....when this happens the lower of the two keys/pads gets hung up and won't completely close. This of course renders the horn unplayable. The problem seems to be the opposing spring system. Get one spring too strong and it throws the other one off. If it's too weak the pad won't completely close or seal.'
Can I fix this myself? It was fine until today and the bass itself is almost new, in excellent condition.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-12-24 20:39
IF the bass is new, then it might be a sticky-leather problem (where the pad refuses to let go).
Carefully draw a damp microfiber cloth between a gently closed pad and tone hole and see it that improves the situation. Refrain from drinking sugared liquids (commonly known as soda) before performing.
I noticed that my own instrument has an inclination to stickiness with certain pads. The simple (and long-term) solution was to store it with bits of kitchen tussue (bounty roll or your local variety) pinched between pad and tone hole.
If a key refuses to completely close, then usually an adjustment screw (or a cork thereunder, what do I know) undid itself. Do spend some time to analyse the situation - what happens when you do what. This will save your repairer some time, and maybe it will tell us enough to determine if there is a "household fix" for your problem.
--
Ben
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Author: fargus
Date: 2010-12-24 20:46
Thanks tictactux. It's definitely not a sticky pad. I had a couple of these and fixed them like you suggested. It's only a problem when I go from one register key to another... mostly from middle B to high B or C. So basically as one register key is opening the other isn't closing completely. I just had my bass adjusted by my repair guy so I'd like to fix this myself if possible.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-12-24 20:55
Hmm. So I guess the lower keys work fine on operating the lower of the register keys, but the higher ones don't really catch...do the lower keys (up to Eb or E, can't remember offhand) release "their" register key properly? How do the notes in between (F...A) sound?
--
Ben
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Author: fargus
Date: 2010-12-24 21:14
They work fine independently of each other. It's only when, for example, when I play an arpeggio across the register keys that theres a problem. And actually its only really the higher a, b and and c that sound odd. It doesn't seem to cause a problem with the e to g#. And yes, the register key for the lower notes closes with no problems. But when it opens I'm not sure if it opens enough or if the other one doesn't close completely..... think it's the latter.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-12-24 21:25
If you've just had it repaired by someone, they've obviously overlooked or under/over adjusted the automatic speaker mechanism and all other related parts to it.
It's one of those mechanisms where you end up chasing your tail as there are several factors that can determine why it isn't working properly - definitely something you shouldn't tackle if you're not accustomed to what does what.
What make of bass is it? Shouldn't it be covered under warranty (unless that is void as you've had someone unauthorised work on it)?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: fargus
Date: 2010-12-24 21:34
It's a Selmer and yes, the guy who looked at it is unauthorized.
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Author: fargus
Date: 2010-12-24 21:57
BTW I don't think there's an authorized repair person in the country
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Author: Suitman
Date: 2010-12-24 22:24
I agree with Chris P. Though from my experience on working with bass clarinets, this is always the worst area on them. I've had the chance to take apart and put back together some old basses and have gotten pretty good at adjusting. Though no amount of adjusting will matter if you don't have the back of your throat right. Have you experimented with changing your throat/tongue to adjust the back pressure? This usually works for me or the other players I used to play with in school.
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Author: fargus
Date: 2010-12-24 22:44
Thanks for all your input.
Suitman, I do change my throat/tongue space (?) as I play and it helps alot with everything. Actually the problem is kind of intermittent so I don't think it's terminal. Just think, or was hoping, I could improve it myself. It's a fabulous bass.
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Author: davetrow
Date: 2010-12-24 23:14
I just had a very similar problem with the Selmer 9 bass (to Eb) I play. Unfortunately, it was something wonky with the linkage--most likely too much play in the joints--that the tech couldn't work out on the spot (and he's wicked good), so I had to leave it with him.
If it were my horn, I'd try to scrape together the moolah for a total overhaul, but as it belongs to the local high school (I play in a community band that supports the music program there), we're stuck with piecemeal, reactive repairs.
Good luck!
Dave Trowbridge
Boulder Creek, CA
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Author: fargus
Date: 2010-12-24 23:26
Hi Dave, does that mean it probably can't be fixed at all or that it can't be fixed without a total overhaul?
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Author: davetrow
Date: 2010-12-25 00:37
It means that it can be fixed one problem at a time (so far), but many of those problems would not crop up if I had the bass overhauled. It still has the original pads in many places, and could use a lot of TLC in other places as well.
Basically a decent horn; if it were mine, I wouldn't hesitate to make the investment.
Dave Trowbridge
Boulder Creek, CA
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Author: fargus
Date: 2010-12-25 13:05
I forgot to ask.... would a little key oil not help? Or would it make it worse in the long term?
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-12-25 14:34
I think davetrow was talking about his instrument with the total overhaul. Based on the description of the problem, your new Selmer definitely doesn't need an overhaul to fix the problem.
This is not an unccomon problem with these instruments. It makes sense that you feel it most in something like a jump from B to B but it happens just the same when you play any note using the body register vent to a note using the neck register vent, since the mechanism to do with this change works exactly the same regardless of the specific notes.
Usually the problem is either one or more adjusting screws are screwed too much or not enough, or the spring tension is not good between the springs operating the mechanism. Maybe just a tiny bit, since you say it doesn't always happen. It can also be a problem of friction between some of the linkages. This can add to another problem or even by its own cause problems.
One of the register mechanism linkages on the Selmer Privilege has a poor design, so if the spring tension, friction, etc. is not just right, you'll have a problem. I modified the linkage a couple of times. Adding grease in some of the linkages can sometimes help but it is not a reliable solution, it should work just fine without it too.
Another thing entirely could be a binding key, many things can cause that. I had this problem with my bass once. I have seen a Selmer Privilege with several biunding key from new, so eventhough less likely, it's worth checking anyway.
A good repairer should have no problem fixing the problem. Someone good especially with more experience with these bass clarinets is probably best, but even if they are not, any excellent repairer would be able to do it, it would just take longer. Best to ask locally who the best repairers are, maybe ask other bass clarinet players?
But if you are mechanical and think you can repair something like this yourself, I can try to walk you through it in email or something like skype chat etc. But if you could do that, maybe you wouldn't ask this here...?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-12-25 15:04
On a Q-series bass the register mechanism wasn't working too well as there wasn't enough opening on the RH3 pad so it wasn't giving enough 'throw' in the linkage to effect a good switchover between vents. This was rectified by bending the RH3 pad cup arm up and reseating the pad to get more throw so the switchover was better plus increased the venting in the speaker vents as well, now matching the venting when the throat A key and speaker key were opened together.
The biggest and most common problems with bass clarinets with the automatic speaker mechanism is due to poor assembly - you have to assemble them without mashing up the linkages at the middle tenon which will compromise the effectiveness mechanism (or knacker it up completely).
So to avoid any damage, hold the top joint in your left hand holding both the throat A key touch and the main action closed together with your fingers as this raises both the long Bb link and the speaker mechanism link. Hold the lower joint in your right hand with your right thumb on top of and closing the large pad cups - if you close the RH main action fingerplates you'll raise either one or both linkages and they'll get mashed up with their corresponding linkages on the top joint, either bending them or tearing off any silencing material.
Make sure the middle tenon cork is well greased so it assembles easily so you're not straining anything or applying too much pressure to the keywork. If you feel any binding, that will most likely mean the tenon rings have swollen so they bind against the inside of the socket - but don't sand anything down as you can remove too much wood from the tenon which will make the joint wobble which will in turn make long Bbs and the automatic speaker mechanism unreliable.
Even though basses are big instruments, their keywork is far more fragile than their Bb/A counterparts and need handling with care so the mechanism doesn't get bent.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: fargus
Date: 2010-12-25 18:41
Chris, thanks for your advice. Actually I put the bass together this way always to try avoid any damage. But it's difficult; no matter what I do I still always always feel like I put a little too much pressure on the rods on the lower joint.
Clarnibass, thanks for your advice and offer of further help. There's alot to think about there so I'll study my bass a little more and post again later.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-12-26 14:13
Just to give a bit more details about the problematic linkage on this models. As part of the mechanism there is a long rod for almost the entire length of the upper joint, connecting the lower joint and the register mechanism at the top of the upper joint. From what I remember, at the top of this rod there is the linkage arm operating against a round short rod (usually with a black material on it on this model). This linkage has a bad design and angle, so the force transfer poorly, requiering the spring tension (so also the feel of the G/D key - right hand third finger key )to be more than it could have been with a better shaped linkage.
The linkage between the G/D key itself and the the mechanism connected to it usually has natural cork originally which can add to the problem. So seperately from the problem you have, which can be fixed regardless, the feel of the key and smoothness of the mechanism can be improved a lot by working on these two linkages.
Post Edited (2010-12-26 14:15)
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Author: fargus
Date: 2010-12-26 15:27
HI Clarnibass, is this short round rod the part that links up with the 'upside down T' on the neck? If so maybe then it makes sense, for me anyway, that this works best when positioned slightly off centre?
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-12-26 16:19
No, I'm talking about a linkage that is on the body only, not with the neck key. I just had a Selmer Privilege here until a couple of days ago, but I can take a photo of a Buffet. A bit different shapes of the linkages but the principle is essentially the same.
BTW to clarify, this issue probably won't fix the problem. I just added this about the Selmer Privilege for general information for anyone interested. However this can definitely exaggerate a problem of spring tension proportions, making it boarderline. After the problem is fixed, this can make the whole mechanism work better with less spring tension (i.e. much better feel).
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Author: fargus
Date: 2010-12-26 22:04
Happening again tonight... don't know why. How frustrating! Seems like the register key on the neck isn't opening fully as opposed to the other one not closing fully. Not sure why I think it's this one....just my feeling. Clarnibass, I see that linkage you're talking about and I'll have a closer look at the mechanism tomorrow and get back to you.
Thanks for everyone's help.
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Author: fargus
Date: 2010-12-26 22:22
Hi again Clarnibass, this linkage seems to control how open or closed the upper joint register key becomes so maybe it actually solve the problem?
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Author: fargus
Date: 2010-12-26 22:53
Yes, definitely seems like the neck register vent is the problem because when I go the other way (e.g. high to to low B) there's no problem. Tonight it's pretty bad. When I make upward jumps, the high G to Cs don't sound.
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Author: fargus
Date: 2010-12-26 23:14
Sorry for replying to my own post so often..
Clarnibass, how could I improve these linkages myself?
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-12-27 00:53
I've seen this problem many times over the years and it's not always easy to fix by yourself if you don't have the experience. Even many repair people without much experience with the problem can't figure it out. It's often caused by a slightly bent rod, one of the long ones that connects to the register key. You could try moving the neck a bit to one side or the other to see if it compensates. There are a few other reasons it might be happening but it's impossible to tell you what it is without seeing it. I've often spent 15 -20 minutes looking at the problem until I could identify it and fix it for a student. It's usually a small problem that creates a big problem. It could even be a problem with the bridge key, the way it bushes up on the rod that attaches to the register key. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2010-12-27 03:41)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-12-27 04:52
Fargus, can you email me? You can get my email if you click on my user name.
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Author: fargus
Date: 2010-12-27 09:47
Thanks Ed. I checked the rods and they don't look bent at all. This happened to my old Buffet and yes, it was a bent rod. I've tried moving the neck around and I thought it helped a little but now Im not sure it does.
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Author: fargus
Date: 2010-12-27 16:56
So it was happening pretty bad this morning.. couldn't play high F sharp/G to C. I left my bass down for a few hours and when I came back it seems fine!
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-12-27 18:58
The late Jimmy Yan adjusted my 1967 Buffet, which he said gave him fits, but he said "If you keep it, you can expect to be seeing a lot of me."
The new Buffet mechanism is much better, and the earlier and current Selmers I've tried have been reliable.
Kal Opperman said Mark Jacobi in Philadelphia is the best there is for bass clarinet work, but he has a long waiting list and, it seems, no website or email.
Ken Shaw
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Author: fargus
Date: 2010-12-27 19:07
In the attached photo you can see a screw in the middle which is the screw in the linkage between the upper and lower joints. I turned this slightly and my problem got worse. I turned it back and it didn't improve.
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Author: fargus
Date: 2010-12-27 19:30
Thanks Ken. I'm taking Clarnibass up on his offer of talking me through a fix for this problem. But all input is welcome. Seems like I really shouldn't have touched that screw!
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-12-27 22:15
The problem may be lack of lubrication in the various interlocking parts. If your instrument has sliding surfaces with cork covers, a very small amount of cork grease may do the trick. A Teflon dot instead of cork may help. IMO, this calls for a professional technician.
While I haven't tried The Doctor's Type 2 Grease http://www.doctorsprod.com/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=11, it looks like the one to try. I like his other products. He himself can give you the best advice. info@doctorsprod.com
Ken Shaw
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Author: fargus
Date: 2010-12-28 10:32
Thanks Ken. Even though I turned that screw and made it worse you think some lubrication can still do the trick?
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-12-28 15:02
OK, this is getting to be a challenge. If it's not a bent rod look into this. Is there any piece of cork that touches metal at any place in the passage way to opening the register key? If there is, even a very thin sliver, it's possible that it's too thin or got slightly flatten. The only other thing I can think of is that one of the keys/rods is too tight against the other so that there's friction in the movement at one of the points of contact preventing the key to move freely. Good luck, ESP
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Author: fargus
Date: 2010-12-28 16:08
Hi Ed. I can't see any bent rods. I can see some cork touching metal in the connecting arms that operate the low G. These arms are at the top of the upper joint near the g sharp hole and just above a similar set that operate the middle F. The part I'm talking about opens and closes with no problem when playing the low G but is sluggish on closing when playing the corresponding D (just over the break). In other words it doesn't close fully or easily when I engage the register key. When I push this down as I play, the notes I'm having a problem with sound like they should.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-12-28 17:01
This sort of thing is difficult to is diagnose and rectify without actually having the instrument. There's just as numerous possibilities for what could be going wrong as there are numerous possibilities to put it right.
The only way this can be sorted out is a visit to a well respected and experienced repairer who knows exactly what they're doing - not your general run-of-the-mill tinkerer who's used to patching up school or student quality instruments and may only ever see a pro model bass once in 30 years (if at all).
Shame I've never visited my relatives in Dublin as I'd probably be over there fairly regularly.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: fargus
Date: 2010-12-28 17:16
Chris, I think now is as good a time as any to visit your relatives in Dublin
I know I should see a repair man but I just had it serviced by my repair guy and the only other authorized repair man (in the country as far as I know) only repairs instruments you buy from him. He's adamant about that. I would go to northern Ireland or the UK if I had a recommendation. I might be in London mid January.
Clarnibass are you in Haifa? Chris are you in the UK?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-12-28 18:10
I'm in West Sussex, though do feel ashamed I've never ever been to Ireland considering half my family are from there (Kildare and Dublin).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: fargus
Date: 2011-01-02 20:44
I'm delighted to say clarnibass helped fix my bass via Skype earlier today. Maybe he can explain what the problem was for all of you who might be curious. Thanks for all your help, especially Nitai.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-01-02 21:11
The wonders of modern technology!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2011-01-03 07:41
Fargus, as has been said, there could be many - maybe a couple of dozen - different causes for your problem. And it is very difficult to diagnose accurately without seeing it.
Grease in the wrong place could make it worse.
Turning a screw without knowing exactly what you are doing could add a NEW problem.
Any "random" repair effort can make your problem far, far more complicated.
And Selmer do often leave binding pivots on their new instruments, and this mechanism involves many pivots.
Clarnibass is an excellent bass clarinet player, and has outstanding skills at diagnosing and sorting out mechanical problems in woodwinds.
You are very fortunate to have his generous offer. Trust him!
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Author: fargus
Date: 2011-01-03 19:53
Thanks Gordon. This board is full of helpful people and I'm grateful to everyone; especially Clarnibass's. I realize any small action by an unqualified repair person, including myself, can result in even more problems. I hope this problem doesn't come back again! How is Auckland for repair guys? Do you do your own repairs?
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