 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Jerry
Date: 2010-12-23 01:19
I have an R-13 with a stock B660 barrel and an M30 mouthpiece. I need to pull out the top barrel, center barrel and bell about 1/8" apiece to get down to A440.
Is that excessive?
A dealer suggested instead of stocking up on a half dozen tuning rings ($10-15/pair) that I get a longer barrel.
What are your thoughts about the benefits, if any, of tuning rings under these circumstances?
If you believe the new barrel approach might achieve better results (getting a slightly longer barrel), is there any brand/model barrel that is known to work particularly well with the M30 mouthpiece on an R-13 clarinet?
What one or two mail order dealers are best to work with to test drive several barrels?
Jerry
The Villages, FL
Post Edited (2010-12-23 01:39)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Alseg
Date: 2010-12-23 03:05
That certainly seems like an excessive amount to have to pull out all over the instrument.
Has anyone else played on it to see what happens to them?.....and by that I mean perhaps a professional player.
Was the instrument purchased in Europe?
Disclaimer.....I make and sell barrels, although in this instance I am not suggesting that is what you need.....more information is needed before suggested that approach.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jerry
Date: 2010-12-23 03:08
Others have played it and it is about the same. I use a 3 1/2 V12 reed. Not European as far as I know. My previous mouthpiece, a 5 RV Lyre played at about the same pitch.
What kind of addtional information do you need?
Jerry
The Villages, FL
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2010-12-23 04:56
If the serial number of your instrument is prefixed with an "F," it was intended by Buffet for for use in ensembles with standard A above 440.
My RC uses a 65 mm Buffet barrel with am M30/13 mouthpiece (refaced), and requires about 1-1/2 mm gap at the barrel and a mm or so at the middle joint.
Bob Phillips
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-12-23 09:36
Well, the M30 is an "American Pitch" mouthpiece, so if your clarinet is not pitched to European standards you need to tell me how you do that. The describeded set up should be on the "low side."
As long as longer barrels don't mess up your internal pitch (such as throat notes being relatively lower than the rest of the horn) this should fix the problem.
Certainly keep us posted on your success with this.
.....................Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Barnhart ★2017
Date: 2010-12-23 16:00
Do you have the same problem with other mouthpieces? The M30 is rather unlike most other mouthpieces that are easily available, but some experimentation with other makes/models might help confirm or eliminate it as the source of the problem.
I noticed that you didn't say whether the M30 was the "standard" model (A442) or the Series 13 (A440). If it is the former, this could be part of the problem. I find that the standard Vandorens are simply too sharp to use without pulling out significantly as you describe.
Also, you don't say what reeds you are using. I play V12s, but have found that reeds made from stiffer cane (e.g., regular Vandorens) may play higher in pitch. It is possible that experimenting with the brand/type/strength of reed may help.
Also, it is quite possible to adjust reeds to play a bit higher or lower in pitch. I have found on the longer-lay Vandorens (M30, B40 Lyre) that they play much better if I remove a bit of material on the side(s), towards the bark. Typically I will remove material from the LEFT side (as you are looking down on the reed with its tip UP) [reference Bonade's belief that since we hold the instrument in the RIGHT hand, we unconsciously put more pressure on the LEFT side of the reed]. I find that this allows more of the reed to vibrate and usually achieves both a deeper, more resonant sound as well as lowering the pitch slightly.
If the mouthpiece/reed are not the issue, could it be the instrument itself? Trying another (R13) with the same setup might confirm/eliminate this possibility.
Aside from any equipment issues, the embouchure and air-stream are factors in intonation. Too much pressure on the reed (e.g., biting) can raise the pitch -- perhaps less vertical pressure while firmly sealing around the reed/mouthpiece while supporting the tone with the air-stream may help. Also, it is possible to change the focus/direction of the airstream. One can raise pitch slightly by focusing the airstream more, increasing its velocity, or by "aiming" the airstream at a point above the axis of the instrument. Perhaps some experimentation in this area could be helpful.
Bob Barnhart
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jerry
Date: 2010-12-23 16:03
Thanks for your suggestions thus far.
The serial number on the main barrels of the instrument do NOT have an alpha prefix. It is a six digit number 5010XX.
The tuning required the same gaps with my previous 5RV Lyre mouthpiece.
The recently acquired mouthpiece is an M30 Profile 88 (CM3188). The blurb on the box says "Designed to provide more flexiblity, it incorporates a very long facing and large tip rail to produce a mouthpiece similar in sonority to the B40, with easier sound production qualities." That is all true.
I pull out uniformly at the three places noted in the opening post so that I do maintain uniform tuning throughout the range.
Paul noted: "As long as longer barrels don't mess up your internal pitch (such as throat notes being relatively lower than the rest of the horn) this should fix the problem. "
Intuitively, it would seem that if I got a longer barrel, that would eliminate the need to pull out "the barrel" (as much), but I would still need to pull out the center and bell a bit as I do now.
So, the question remains, should I:
Option a. Just leave it as is.
Option b. Use tuning rings.
Option c. Get a slightly longer barrel. If so, what are recommendations with this setup?
Option d. Combination of above that works the best
Oh, and what does the B 660 on my barrel represent? 66mm, perhaps?
Jerry
The Villages, FL
Post Edited (2010-12-23 16:20)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2010-12-23 17:09
Jerry,
You are aware that going barrel shopping will bring all the delight of not only affecting your tuning, but allowing you to worry about all the other things that the barrel could, can, might do to your clarinet....
Bob Phillips
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jerry
Date: 2010-12-23 17:46
Based on what I read on this Board, if I choose carefully from among a half dozen barrels, I am nearly certain to attain qualities better than what I have now.
Is that "hype" and "wishful thinking?"
Jerry
The Villages, FL
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Alseg
Date: 2010-12-23 17:58
I think that you might have the 442 M30
mouthpiece. I believe that somewhere it should state that it is a "13" series
Likewise for your previous 5 RV Lyre mouthpiece. Check and see.
The 440 pitch series has a small engraved 13 on the mouthpiece to the left lower side of the table.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-12-23 19:07
I have an older Buffet, 92000 series and I use a 67 mm barrel, had a permanent ring installed in the middle joint so it is pulled out all the time and a Backun bell. Pulling out the bell only helps the bell tones but pulling out the middle joint effects everything in the lower joint. Pulling out the barrel effects the entire horn but effects the throat tones more than the rest of the instrument. There are many different barrels on the market today so I'm not going to recommend one over the other because I don't know which brand will work best for you but I would suggest you try several brands in the 67 mm length and than pull out the middle joint instead of the bell, though you can do that too if you need for those few notes it effects.
Woodwind, Muncy's and Weiner are three good mail order stores that sell different brands so maybe you should invest some time in trying several out. Most will send you 3-4 on a trail basses. If there's a store in driving distance from where you live that stocks many different barrels that would be even better. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2010-12-23 22:26
To reinforce what Alan Segal said, it should be clear that my M30 is a "13" (low pitch A=440) used as a blank for a more friendly facing.
As far as choosing a barrel: I once went through 72 in a single afternoon. I tried them all "straight up" (with their logos on top in line with the finger holes). I did this without a tuner (stupid). I picked two that had distinctly better sound AND responsiveness than the others.
Everyone loved the sound of the best of those two.
I went through the two finalists in more detail, trying each at 4 different rotational orientations: logo up, right, down, left. With help, we found the best sounding orientation.
BUT, that wonderful barrel widened the 12ths of my Buffet RC by about 30-cents, making them useless.
So, I'd say that there are only two practical ways to pick a tuning barrel (3 if you just go buy on and play it):
1.) Audition at least 3-dozen, and use your tuner (evaluated each of them in 4 orientations). You might get one that is "good" and plays in tune.
2.) Get someone to custom make you ONE barrel.
I've tried number 1 and lost.
Maybe next time, I'll try #2.
Bob Phillips
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Wes
Date: 2010-12-24 00:20
Yes, some barrels can get the tuning close on most of the notes, but will not work on all of the scale. The left hand in the low register could be flattened too much, for example. It is best to try a new barrel with a tuner before buying, if at all possible. Good luck!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: 2cekce ★2017
Date: 2010-12-24 00:48
I am glad I saw this thread, being the unprofessional player that I am I didnt know the M30 came as a 442 and 440 pitch. I purchased the M30
a few months ago after I tried it and the 5rv I chose the M30 because it was a better fit for me as opposed to the 5rv which was too closed.
I have to wander though if I may be playing out of pitch with the other clarinets in the section seemingly we are constantly adjusting and never seem to all get in tune with each other. the section leader plays on buffet
R13, I play a amati pro615 with M30 and mitchell lurie 3.5 the other players are using plastic models of some kind( I m sure thats part of the problem). anyway How can I tell what M30 I have as I dont have the box It came in and the only markings on it are just m30 engraved in tiny letters to
the right of the table.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jerry
Date: 2010-12-24 02:37
Alan said: "The 440 pitch series has a small engraved 13 on the mouthpiece to the left lower side of the table."
Nope, not mine. The only thing engraved on the mouthpiece is M30, and script style double eights (88) indicating the more tapered beak. I would conclude it is not a "Series 13".
Jerry
The Villages, FL
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Alseg
Date: 2010-12-24 02:42
Aha.....so we have identified one factor in the mix.
Allan
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jerry
Date: 2010-12-24 02:55
"Aha.....so we have identified one factor in the mix."
So, go ahead and interpret that "aha" moment for me. What is the significance?
Jerry
The Villages, FL
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Alseg
Date: 2010-12-24 13:52
Your mouthpiece is pitched at 442.
The 13 series is pitched at 440.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jerry
Date: 2010-12-24 14:21
How many millimeters at the barrel is the difference between A440 and 442 on an R-13?
The economics would seem to favor getting a longer barrel over a longer mouthpiece, correct?
But the economics would also prefer tuning rings over either.
What do the physics prefer? (which is the basis of my opening post questions.)
Jerry
The Villages, FL
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2010-12-24 15:38
I recently ran a test with my Buffet RC.
http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=339625&t=339359
I got 10-cents per mm in the left hand and about 5-cents for the long notes.
With my modified M30/13 and a 65 mm Buffet barrel, I pull about 1-mm at the barrel and push all the way in at the center joint a the bell.
With a Zinner blank-based mouthpiece with the same facing, I pull out about 3-mm at the barrel, and 1-1/2 mm at the center joint and leave the bell closed up. (low F and low E are still flat).
I don't know which Zinner blank I have, but suspect that they make mouthpieces with various interior chamber contours that would affect tuning. (not just mouthpiece length determines how the 'piece tunes).
If I've done the arithmetic correctly, the difference between 440 and 442 is about 18-cents, so you'd need a couple of mm at the barrel and another mm at the middle joint --but check your horn.
I'm not sure that closing the interior gaps with tuning rings makes any difference in how the clarinet sounds, or responds.
Finally, I'd go for the -13 series mouthpiece.
Good luck with your setup.
Bob Phillips
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Alseg
Date: 2010-12-24 17:03
I think that it is the bore and not the length of the mouthpiece that makes the difference......anyone?
You can get a 13 series M30 online for less than $100, and perhaps less from a certain "vowel harbor."
Consider a 66.5 or 67mm mpc without taper (taper will raise the pitch of covered tones). You can check that clarinet accessories on that inominate auction place or online wholesale, retail or custom for those as well.
You may still have to pull bell and mid joint a tiny bit.
disclaimer....I make barrels, which also make fine tree ornaments if you dont play them. Merry Christmas, Festivus, whateverus.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2010-12-24 17:09)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jerry
Date: 2010-12-24 17:08
Yeah, I just got this non-Series 13 M30 mouthpiece 6 months ago after trying a dozen or so in a store in Jacksonville, 80 miles or so from where I live. I really like this M30 compared to my previous 5RV Lyre. The tuning is not discernably different. I still had to pull out quite a bit with my RV. Is it true that a different copy of the same model mouthpiece often has different playing and sound characteristics? Is this equally true for different copies of the same model barrel?
I was thinking a new barrel purchase would be less involved than getting a new mouthpiece and would allow me to experience the hype about changing, if not improving the sound quality while at the same time seeing if a longer barrel will help resovle my tuning issue - killing to birds with one barrel, so to speak.
Jerry
The Villages, FL
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Alseg
Date: 2010-12-24 19:35
Jerry wrote:
Is this equally
> true for different copies of the same model barrel?
>
Yes. That is true.
I think you now have the mouthpiece information you need to make a decision as to what ++ you++ want to do.
I did something for you on another web page if you choose to take advantage of it. If you can NOT find it, (no, it is not on my webpage) contact me via email offline (click my profile) and I will lead the proverbial horse to water.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2010-12-24 19:45)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
