 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: QueenVicki
Date: 2010-12-17 18:43
I have a LeBlance S-K Symphonie Model clarinet with a very low serial number on it (272A). I have had a lot of help from some gentlemen on another forum and have been led here at this point. I have pictures of the clarinet, it is in very good condition. I just had it re-padded and should have it back tonight as it needed a few more adjustments. I have been trying to find the history on it and find out how old it is but I am having a hard time finding serial numbers that go back that far and that low. I know the clarinet was old when I got it in 1987 (high school graduation present). I was told that Don Berger might have some information or might be able to help and was told that I might find him in this forum. Can anyone help me?
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2010-12-17 19:09
You might check Steve Sklar's site for info on older leblanc clarinets:
http://www.clarinetperfection.com/clsnLeblanc.htm#SNLeblanc
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: QueenVicki
Date: 2010-12-17 19:18
Steve is one of the gentlemen that has been helping me. We have found out quite a bit and are pretty sure it dates in the 1950's.
Thank you
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2010-12-17 19:35
I would think that with that serial number it would be very early 50s at latest but suspect even earlier, probably 40s.
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Author: QueenVicki
Date: 2010-12-18 01:29
Thank you everyone. I have been on both of those websites but nothing seems to go back far enough. I have some contact information that might help. I think that will be my next step.
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Author: floraldesigner
Date: 2010-12-18 03:59
I have a penzel-mueller clarinet with a number 7352B on it. played it as a child and would like any information anyone can give me on it. The sound was always beautiful from it. it is in great condition. Thank you everyone.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-12-18 14:55
The Stubbins S-K mechanism has been discussed several times, including at http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=217077&t=216953, where our patent expert, Don Berger, wrote that it received patent number 2,508,550. The application was filed in 1948, and the patent was issued in 1950. See http://www.freepatentsonline.com/2508550.pdf.
Therefore, your clarinet could not have been made before 1948 (though it's certainly possible that Stubbins and Leblanc were in touch before then), and it probably dates from 1950 or later. I doubt that Leblanc started selling clarinets with the SK mechanism prior to 1948, since sale prior to the application would (I think) interfere with the issuance of the patent.
Ken Shaw
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Author: HCR
Date: 2010-12-18 20:28
I can give you a little indirect help. I bought my seven-ring Leblanc Symphonie Model Bb as a used instrument back in fall 1958 (I was a 9th grader). Its serial number is 1072A. I was told by the music store clerk who sold it to me that it was three years old. It's the only Bb I've ever owned -- or wanted to. From the moment I picked it up, it felt (and still feels) like "me."
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Author: Brent
Date: 2010-12-20 01:44
I have a Leblanc clarinet with the S-K (or similar) mechanism, similar also to that in the photo on the Clarinet Perfection website which is labeled "1948 Model". I know, however, that mine was manufactured prior to 1940, because my father's parents bought it used for him when he graduated high school and went into college previous to the US involvement in WW2. Curiously (relative to the initial post) the SN is 2728.
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2010-12-20 14:25
interestingly enough I had received (a couple years back) some pics from a lady in the UK of a very old Leblanc that had stubbins like register keywork.
It had a single post for the LJ side spatula keys and a rounded sheet metal UJ trill key guide. Though I have an old Leblanc "france" LL that has the rounded trill key guide. I believe that same lady said that the Stubbins like mechanism was from 1933 but Don's past work for the S-K is 1948/50. Too bad WWII messed up the entire industry history/knowledge (and alot of other things).
I couldn't offer any more info other than speculation and a link to this board .....
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Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
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Author: QueenVicki
Date: 2010-12-20 14:27
My serial number is lower than that. Wow......is it possible it is that old? I have found one more person who may be able to help and I have emailed and am waiting on a reply. I hope she answers.
Thank you
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2010-12-20 15:16
The odd item is the "1948" clarinet on the website does not have the "Symphonie model" designation on it.
Also the "1948" clarinet has a shared "L" post configuration for the throat keys.
whereas Vicki's clarinet has independent 4 post configuration for the throat keys. (kinda like the pre-R13 and R13 identifier)
above the "1948" clarinet I have collage (sent to me that way) of the L post configuration but a single pivot for the LJ side keys and the stubbins type mechanism,
whereas the "1948" has 2 separate pivots for the B/C# keys.
I'd be wary of pre and post WWII serial numbers .. I somehow doubt they are continuous.
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Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
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Author: QueenVicki
Date: 2010-12-20 16:26
Hello Steve
I found a website for Carolyn Sue Kincaid Chesnut and it states that she plays exclusively LeBlanc Clarinets and it says she has a 1953 Symphonie Model. I have sent an email and asked how she found that year. I am hoping she can shed some light on it for me. I also received an email from Mr. Berger with some information on it and a few more names.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2010-12-20 17:31
In another thread, Vytas Krass, who has considerable knowledge about these things, states that Leblanc introduced the Symphonie Model in 1950. Corroborating this statement, the 1952 and 1953 ads with Buddy DeFranco's picture at the Clarinetperfection site all make reference to the Symphonie. (Technically, there was a Symphonie which followed the Symphonie Model for a short time. Whether the ads refer specifically to this second model or the original Symphonie Model is unclear but I am inclined to believe the latter. The Logo on the clarinets in the pictures have a 2-line model name, which would suggest Symphonie Model.) Aside from the LL and perhaps the Pete Fountain, most of Leblanc's professional models have been relatively short-lived -- Leblanc generally appears to have given a new (or updated) model designation when they updated a model. Given your low serial number and the A suffix, I would expect that your clarinet was made during the first year of production (second at the latest) which would put its date at 1950 or possibly 1951. And, even if Vytas is wrong (which I doubt), your clarinet would not have been made much before 1950.
Your clarinet's keywork is also consistent with a manufacturing date around 1950. There is an adjusting screw on the throat G# key, separate posts for the throat A and G# and two posts for the left-hand pinky keys (as Steve notes). These are all indicators of an instrument made no earlier than the late 1940's (though I do note an adjusting screw on the older "unmarked" model on Steve's site).
FWIW, my best guess then is that Leblanc made your clarinet in 1950.
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2010-12-20 17:33)
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Author: susieray
Date: 2010-12-20 17:32
I seem to recall Vytas Krass saying that the Symphonie Model came out in 1950, and that the first ones had an A suffix so it would probably be safe to assume your clarinet is from about that time.
I once had a real old Leblanc with a double vent mechanism that I believe was way older than that, but that particular instrument did not have a model name on it. I wish I had kept pictures of it and a record of the serial number!
Post Edited (2010-12-21 02:47)
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Author: QueenVicki
Date: 2010-12-20 19:38
Thank you very much everyone for all of your information. I really appreciate it. I think 1950 is probably going to be the right year. This is what Steve had said in the beginning. It is very interesting to research the history of this instrument and I have learned a great deal.
Thank you
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Author: Brent
Date: 2010-12-21 02:16
Nope. No model designation. As i mentioned, i know for a fact that the instrument was purchased used in 1940.
Oh, and the keys are painted black to give the instrument a darker tone...;-)
The lower joint is pretty unremarkable, except that the thumbrest is of the design where the two mounting screws are vertical--one above and one below the thumbrest--which is, i believe, also an older design element.
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Author: QueenVicki
Date: 2010-12-21 12:45
My thumb rest is normal. I believe your clarinet is older than mine. Altthough it is very interesting how much it looks like mine with the exception of the black keys. Do you use the clarinet?
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Author: Brent
Date: 2010-12-21 16:00
Not much. Although it plays nicely enough, i like my 10G much better. It carries a lot of family history, though, so i keep it around.
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2010-12-21 17:30
Brent's clarinet is interesting in that the A suppression arm has a notch for it on the A key, whereas the pic of the "1948" model simply pushes down on top of the keyarm. Compared to earlier pic though has a tab in front of the A key .. I guess you call that evolution. The post design and other minor design changes are evident too.
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Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
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Author: susieray
Date: 2010-12-21 17:58
Aren't the keys black because they are just heavily tarnished silver plate?
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Author: Brent
Date: 2010-12-21 21:23
Nope, they're painted. There was no plating at all on the keys before i painted them. (I did completely disassemble the clarinet and masked off the mating areas before painting, so there is no binding as a result).
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