 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: suavkue
Date: 2010-12-11 15:12
So...
I'll refer back to these threads for reference:
1) http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=339643&t=339643&v=f
2) http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=338169&t=338094
#1 is the most recent and the one I'll probably refer to the most.
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So, the thing is, I decided to try opening my throat this last Thursday, which was the last time I saw my clarinet professor before the jury examinations (which I will be doing) on Tuesday. I was playing my scales, and he noted that I sounded the "best that [I] ha[d] sounded" during this whole semester on that Thursday.
I told him that I had another embouchure change. This is probably the... 6th or 7th time I've done something to my embouchure this semester. I told him that I started opening my throat.
What baffled both of us was that he teaches otherwise, according to Ridenour's articles - "hissing" position, close the throat, etc. I was playing like this for a month, but I felt there was something lacking in my tone - something missing.
I decided to talk to one of the principal clarinetists about it - she told me that I needed to open my throat (see thread #1), and I was surprised, since I've been taught closing my throat isn't good. (In high school, I was taught that opening the throat should only be restricted to throat tones, but I never really caught on to that habit unless someone specifically told me so.)
I've been trying to figure out what opening my throat has done to my sound, and I've been blowing in this new way - it seems that my airflow is faster and more focused than with the "hiss" method, but my professor warned me that I may be playing the clarinet as I should be for saxophone. I do make sure that my throat isn't opened so much so that my tongue cannot be in the "key" position - if I notice I open my throat that much, I change it.
So my questions are:
1) Is there a correct answer to this embouchure deal?
2) Am I digging myself into a hole - and will eventually be sounding like a saxophone?
3) The throat should be closed - the throat should be open - which is correct? I contacted Tom Ridenour by my professor's request; he stated that
... an open throat--the term is ambiguous. I'm personally against forcing the throat open, for it always creates an unfocused tone.
Many refer to the soft palate mistakenly as the "throat."
The soft palate should be lifted somewhat, as it is when you are yawning---think of a mild yawn with your mouth closed and you'll have some idea of the position of the soft palate.
4) What is this "soft palate" that Ridenour refers to?
Thanks everyone.
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My current equipment:
Ridenour Lyrique 576BC, Rico Reserve 4, Ridenour Hand Finished Mouthpiece, Luyben Ligature
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Author: Joseph Brenner, Jr.
Date: 2010-12-11 16:00
Your goal is to play well and sound good. Your teacher told you that you sounded better than you had sounded all semester. Apparently you had found a way to sound good by a means that did not match what your teacher professed--so what!!!!! Don't lose sight of the forest by focusing solely on trees (in this case, the various doctrines and rituals and types of equipment). Teachers, like parents, try to guide and are well meaning, but are not all- knowing. Some people prefer to play with a double lip embouchure, some others prefer to play with a single lip embouchure; you can find teachers in both camps. At university, you have the opportunity to learn and explore. Now's not the time to close your mind, to fail to question, or to think that every question has a right answer. As you move along, you'll find that there are few absolutes. You know that to get sound from a clarinet you must blow through it; but there are many ways to blow through it, and no one way is the right way. Is holding my clarinet close to my body as I play better than holding it further away? I don't know; I'll have to try it both ways. Maybe it sounds better for some passages to hold it one way, better in some passages to hold it another way.
Best wishes, and happy new year.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-12-11 16:24
There is a video circulating this board that depicts an x-ray of someone playing and moving his tongue position all around on one tone. Yes, he gets some dramatically different sounds as he bounces between "HEEEE" and back down to "YAHHHHHHH." However, I tended to look at what is happening with his jaw during this example. As he executes "YAHHHHHH" (or AHHHHH), not only is his tongue moving way back and down, but his jaw is openning up quite noticably (what happes naturally when you say "AHHHH").
So the question for me becomes, is it the tongue at all, or is it the pressure we exert with the jaw vs. the lip pressure? As we fill in the gap created by the open jaw, the type of pressure (fleshy lips vs. teeth) we exert is quite different.
For me THIS is the difference in sound to which we refer. If you truly, and objectively move your tongue around WITHOUT changing the jaw/lip pressure points, I think you'll find VERY little differece save for the fact that your tongue DOES block a fully free flow of air in the low/down position.
.......................Paul Aviles
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2010-12-11 16:32
Interesting analysis, Paul.
Another thing that gets lost is that clarinet playing involves two resonance systems. The obvious one is out in the open, your hands and mouth --the clarinet.
The other is hidden inside you --your throat and lungs. Fiddling with the connection between lungs and mouth and with the mouth cavity affects the interaction between you/horn.
Since everyone is of a different shape (inside and outside), one could reasonably expect that different people would need to "tune themselves" differently.
Bob Phillips
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2010-12-11 16:33
Find what works for you and do it. Clarinetists are notorious for overthinking the sound-producing mechanisms of the body and second-guessing to oblivion, beating themselves into habits that end up hindering their playing rather than doing what feels natural.
If something you're doing is causing a problem, try different things in order to fix it. If no problem has been diagnosed, don't change your playing to what someone has declared the "right" way to do it. You might explore different ways to do something, but don't intentionally shy away from something that works for you because someone says it shouldn't work.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: rdc
Date: 2010-12-11 16:39
If you place your index finger on the roof of your mouth just behind your upper teeth, you will feel the hard palate, which extends quite far toward the back of your mouth. At some point, the hard surface becomes tissue that feels noticeably softer than that of the hard palate. This is the soft palate.
A word of caution: if you explore this way to find your soft palate, be careful of the gag reflex as your finger approaches the back of your mouth.
I try to use the raised soft palate and high tongue position in my playing, but just as important as these is the concept of relaxation in this area. Feel as if the airstream flows over soft surfaces rather than hard, tense ones.
Also, I would refer you to Larry Guy's "The Pedagogy Corner" article in the December 2010 issue of The Clarinet magazine, where he talks about the relationship between the high tongue position and relaxation.
Finally, let me encourage you to leave aside for a while all the minutiae of embouchure formation, tongue position, throat position, etc. and concentrate on the goal of playing with a beautiful, free, singing tone. Analyze by listening to the results, and trust your teacher to keep you on track.
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Author: suavkue
Date: 2010-12-11 16:40
Thanks, Joseph. I do believe in the idea that I should get as many perspectives as possible (especially with embouchure) and see what works for me. It's just that it's been frustrating doing everything that contradicts what he tells me to do (I'm the only clarinetist in the University that plays on a double lip, I have a Ridenour clarinet, I open my throat, etc.).
Paul - interestingly enough, my professor asked me to play in both positions during that lesson - they both sound distinctly different. I'll be recording myself today...
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My current equipment:
Ridenour Lyrique 576BC, Rico Reserve 4, Ridenour Hand Finished Mouthpiece, Luyben Ligature
Post Edited (2010-12-11 16:43)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-12-11 19:36
My professor in college was John Yeh. I did NOT listen to him back then and it is one of my great regrets, having lost a good ten years before I found out that he was right all along (and by the way, at least back then, Yeh used double lip......... so did I). When I attempted the "EEEE" configuration back then I thought my sound was thin and constricted even though John Yeh said it made an immediate improvement of my sound. He did convince me that the "AHHHHH" configuration does indeed block the free flow of air but I was not convinced that that had anything to do with my sound.
I would only add that a consistantly quick, thins stream of air is the key to a solid (clarinet vibrating) sound (you should feel the horn vibrate under your fingers ALL THE TIME).
For me the key is in pushing steadily with your abdominal muscles. The right feeling is much like how you would address a bout with constipation. Now Arnold Jacobs is quick to say in "Song and Wind," that one should avoid the Valsalva Maneuver, but there is a professor at the Cincinnati Conservatory of Music who claims that "the best rehearsal you'll ever have is when you 5hit on yourself."
.....................Paul Aviles
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2010-12-11 20:33
Beware the "tight abdominals" advice. It can be helpful, but it can also lead to tense playing. Just be mindful of what you do as you play. Gently braced rather than limp I find helpful, but squeezed I find counterproductive. YMMV.
In my experience, relaxed enthusiasm can do as much for tone quality as every micromanagement of tone production mechanism combined.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-12-11 20:48
EEBaum wrote
Quote:
Find what works for you and do it. Clarinetists are notorious for overthinking the sound-producing mechanisms of the body and second-guessing to oblivion, beating themselves into habits that end up hindering their playing rather than doing what feels natural.
Hmm. I witnessed (from afar, as I'm now seated between Eb horn and Bari right now) that my "home" section sounds rather, uhm, "timid".
So yes, open your throat, open your mind but stop thinking about acoustical concepts. And by all means, learn your part by heart and throw away the notes, at least for the lyrical passages. Nothing is worse than a player glued to a sheet of music.
I found out that an "open throat" means an open airway, not necessarily an open oral cavity. Trying to sing while playing (aka growling) greatly helps in overcoming mental restrictions "further down" the breathing apparatus. Do control the shape of the mouth cavity, but try to unrestrict the "bellows" as much as possible.
(I'm not a teacher but a mere player but this is what helped me to get some edge off my tone when needed)
--
Ben
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2010-12-11 23:52
When clarinetists talk about "open throat" they are most often (maybe always) talking more, as Paul and others already have suggested, about tongue shape/position. Opening the "throat" implies somehow enlarging the oral cavity by moving the tongue out of the way of the air stream.
The trouble is we can't see what we ourselves are actually doing with our tongues, and most of us are skittish enough about unnecessary X-ray exposure not to be in a great hurry to have imaging studies done of us while we play. So we all tend to guess about what we're actually doing with our tongues. That's why many players and teachers talk about vowel sounds instead of actual physical tongue positions - we know how to make those sounds even if we can't really say for sure what we're doing.
Opening the front of the mouth ("Oh" or "Ooo") can cause the back of the tongue to rise, *perhaps* creating a resistance effect that, if the amount of air is kept constant, can create more air pressure. Raising the middle and front ("Eee") can cause the back of the tongue to drop, (again, perhaps) allowing more air into the oral area, the higher front of the tongue providing some resistance closer to the reed. Paul suggests that these movements in the tongue can cause (mostly) unconscious changes in jaw position, which he feels is more responsible than the tongue itself for any changes in sound quality.
However they conceptualize them, many players try to use these various changes inside the mouth to color the sound. Mostly they do it by thinking of a vowel shape that they have discovered, either by experiment or at a teacher's suggestion, produces the quality *they want.* The two things that must happen, whatever vowel/tongue position you choose, are that (a) you need to keep the front of your tongue in a position that allows easy articulation, and (b) the soft tissue throughout your mouth and all the way back through the pharyngeal and laryngeal areas needs to remain soft and pliable. The surest way for a wind musician, whether an instrumentalist or a vocalist, to dull and cover the tone is by tensing somewhere in the system so the soft tissue becomes rigid.
My advice would be to forget about what's open and what's closed and think about creating a shape inside your mouth that produces the most resonant and clearest sound - maybe not even the same shape for every musical context. It sounds as if you've already found one that works better than what you were doing before.
Our tongue position can compensate in many ways for individual characteristics we are born with. But whatever position you choose needs to allow for clean articulation and to avoid tension and rigidity.
Karl
Post Edited (2010-12-12 00:21)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2010-12-12 00:41
Paul Aviles wrote:
> My professor in college was John Yeh. I did NOT listen to him
> back then and it is one of my great regrets, having lost a good
> ten years before I found out that he was right all along (and
> by the way, at least back then, Yeh used double lip......... so
> did I). When I attempted the "EEEE" configuration back then I
> thought my sound was thin and constricted even though John Yeh
> said it made an immediate improvement of my sound. He did
> convince me that the "AHHHHH" configuration does indeed block
> the free flow of air but I was not convinced that that had
> anything to do with my sound.
>
Paul, could this show less that Yeh was "right" than that you've since come to favor his sound concept more now than you did as a student?
I think it's somewhere in Daniel Bonade's writing about tone production that the best sound is produced by thinking "eee" inside the mouth and "ooo" with the lips - which is how the French produce the 'u' in voiture, a very characteristic French vocal sound. I've read elsewhere that one of the changes that has taken place in the "American" clarinet style (if there is one) is that American players have largely abandoned that French 'u' and adopted a more "ooo" or "oh" vowel position. I don't know what today's players who are clearly not in the French/Bonade lineage (Morales comes to mind) are thinking as they play, but it seems maybe Yeh's approach to oral shape, as you describe it, was more a reflection of that older French tradition (which I also tend to prefer) than a universal truth.
Karl
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Author: Wes
Date: 2010-12-12 04:35
A mentor of mine, the late Glen Johnston, said to think of the French girl sitting in a sidewalk cafe in Paris, sucking a lemonade through a straw. The difference is that she is sucking lemonade and you would be blowing while playing the clarinet and forming the "eau" shape in your mouth. Good Luck!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-12-12 10:59
Dear Karl,
No, today my sound is just MUCH BIGGER.
Dear Wes,
I think of that French girl at the cafe often, but not in a clarinet playing context, nor do I tell my wife about it. :-)
....................Paul Aviles
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