 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: graham
Date: 2010-12-08 13:23
In digging around I find the following extract from a diary which appears to be that kept by Edward Elgar's wife in around 1904:
'The clarinettist Charles Draper writes about an arrangement of the Canto Popolare from In the South: "I feel that the best thing would be to write it all for the A Clarinet. I suppose there would be time to change? From letter B it is infinitely better on the A Clarinet and the first part and also last part will suffer little or nothing, in fact I think the whole thing will be more sympathetic on the A Clarinet. I do not think that I can alter anything to make it more effective than it already is. I should feel very proud for my name to be connected with this, but feel that I have not done sufficient to entitle myself to such an honour."'
It seems that the passage in quotes is all written by Charles Draper (the leading British clarinetist of the day) who seems to have been asked for a view on whether to use a B flat or A for a spin off piece by Elgar. His remarks could refer to ease of execution, rather than tonal suitability, but I doubt that is the case. His reference to the first and last parts suffering little or nothing seems to be to them being playable on an A whereas they might have been better on a B flat from the playability standpoint. The reference to the whole thing being more sympathetic on an A strikes me as referring to the sound characteristics.
If my interpretation is correct, here is a leading player of 100 years ago guiding a leading composer of well attested orchestration abilities as to the different tonal characteristics of the two instruments.
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Author: William
Date: 2010-12-08 14:41
The A clarinet has a warmer tone quality than the Bb if played by the same clarinetist. However, it is hard to argue about the desired tone tambre as conceptualized by the composer as either a Bb or A clarinet played by two different clarinetists will sound different--one perhaps "darker" than the other. I have always thought that the use of either was more to facilitate technical issues rather than tonal.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-12-08 14:42
graham -
Very interesting. Draper was an amazing player, who apparently made recordings under many names.
Is your source available on-line? If not, can you give the location and call number?
Thanks.
Ken Shaw
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Author: graham
Date: 2010-12-08 16:55
http://www.elgar.org/2time04.htm
Ken
The link above should get to it but you will have to go to the entry for October 20th for the quote from Draper.
As to different names, I had not heard that. But he did quite a few interesting things
graham
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Author: salzo
Date: 2010-12-08 17:10
If you ask someone who is not a clarinetist, then no they do not sound different.
Personally, I think even clarinetist are not hearing a difference in sound, but the half step difference creates a feeling that it is a "darker" instrument.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-12-08 17:53
Best way to find out what the differences are is if you record the same piece at the same pitch played on both A and Bb clarinets (eg. playing the same piece but in Bb on the A and in A on the Bb) and see if you can tell the difference in tone.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2010-12-08 20:17
Interesting question indeed. Why the Bb clarinet and the bass clarinet has different sound????????????????????????????????
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-12-08 20:43
Well, in its upper (clarion) register my Oehler-system bass sounds just like a soprano clarinet, in my opinion at least. Possibly because with its much smaller bore (compared to a Boehm bass clarinet) it is more closely "scaled" (in terms of length and diameter vs. pitch) to the soprano clarinet than the Boehm bass. My theory is that the Boehm bass, being shorter and with a larger bore than the Oehler bass, is more 'optimized' for its usual playing register (the chalumeau) and thus sounds different than the soprano clarinet, which is optimized for its clarion register. If that makes any sense.
As for the original question, I sure as heck couldn't tell you (without looking) if a good player was playing on a Bb or an A soprano clarinet.
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Author: salzo
Date: 2010-12-09 01:25
Chris wrote:
"Best way to find out what the differences are is if you record the same piece at the same pitch played on both A and Bb clarinets (eg. playing the same piece but in Bb on the A and in A on the Bb) and see if you can tell the difference in tone."
I am not so sure that is the best way to tell if they actually sound different.
I know when I am listening to the clarinet, I can tell which note is being played. WHen I hear a C played on the A clarinet (concert a), I hear a "C"
When I hear a C played on the Bb (concert Bb), I hear a "C". It is not a pitch recognition, but more a timbre recognition of the characteristic differences of each note on the clarinet.
When hearing the opening of Schuman Opus 73, when play on the A CLARInet I hear Eb-D-Ab-G-F-E-D-C-b. When played on the Bb, I hear D-C#-G-F#-E-D-C#-B-A#.
Think of the throat Bb on either instrument- Throat Bb is the most easily recognizable note on the clarinet. Whether played on the Bb or A, chances are you will immediately recognize it as a throat Bb.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2010-12-09 03:28
Two friends, one an oboist and the other a bassoonist both recognize the weakest note on a clarinet by its timbre. The oboist (who does not have perfect pitch) can then reconstruct the notes around the Bb --even if it has been "cleaned up" by using resonance fingerings.
BUT, I can't tell the difference between a Bb and an A (little experience with a C) --unless I recognize the piece. Of course, the Schumann Fantasy pieces are up for grabs, as both keys are commonly available.
I think that there is much more difference between players than there is between semi-tone difference in pitches of instruments. A bass is a whole octave different from a Bb
BUT, the TreTempi recording of the Mozart Concerto transcribed to Bb still has the most sonorous chords in the orchestra parts of the second movement of ANY version I've ever heard.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-12-09 06:00
If you play the Schumann on a full Boehm Bb you won't have to use the throat Bb at all when you get the B-A#, so that will have the same effect as playing C-B on an A clarinet.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2010-12-09 12:59
When I unpacked my B-flat clarinet (an early Selmer 10G) yesterday to practice, I noticed that the center tenon cork had torn and one end was coming loose. As a first-aid measure, I needed to apply some contact cement and get the loose end stuck back down. Since the cement needs time to set up before you put the pieces together, I got out my much older Buffet B-flat (even older early R13) to get started. I was a little surprised to hear (or at least be so clearly reminded of) the difference in sound between it and the Selmer once I got the cork battened down. I'm not sure that those two B-flat instruments sound any (or much less) different than do my Selmer B-flat and A (a newer 10G). There is so much variation possible among individual instruments and players, and I think makers have worked for so long to minimize any natural differences, that any B-flat/A sound difference is too conditional to mean anything. Ironically, perhaps, I think the difference between B-flat and C clarinets is consistently much more pronounced, partly because manufacturers haven't generally put as much design effort into C clarinets and haven't managed to homogenize the sound of that pairing as much.
All of that said, a passage that hits certain clearly identifiable mechanical features (e.g. either break, trills from B/F-sharp to C-sharp/G-sharp, etc.) on a B-flat certainly sounds different to a clarinetist (and to anyone else who is paying attention) when the same passage is played on an A clarinet and in some cases the opposite can be true.
My 2-cents.
Karl
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2010-12-10 15:45
kdk said:
"All of that said, a passage that hits certain clearly identifiable mechanical features (e.g. either break, trills from B/F-sharp to C-sharp/G-sharp, etc.) on a B-flat certainly sounds different to a clarinetist (and to anyone else who is paying attention) when the same passage is played on an A clarinet and in some cases the opposite can be true."
Curses, this horn has no articulated G#!
When I first got my Full Boehm horn, I used to enjoy playing those riffs that the books on orchestration suggest NOT be written for clarinets.
Bob Phillips
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