 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-12-02 12:27
Do public school in the U.S.A. generally give music teachers rules about whether or not they can sell musical instruments to their students? When I was a child in the 1950s, my band teacher nearly got fired when the school district discovered that a local music store paid him to recommend that kids' parents buy their instruments and supplies there. He also told the parents that certain models of instruments were the only ones worth buying, and guess what? Those were the only models that neighborhood store sold. I assume that type of conduct is no more acceptable now than then.
But what about used instruments? Band teachers generally learn something about basic repairs and some teachers get quite good at restoring old instruments. Sometimes that's the only way to keep the school-owned instruments playable. So, what about the next step? Do schools consider it ethical or unethical for a band teacher to buy used instruments cheaply at flea markets, yard sales and auctions, fix the instruments up and sell them directly to kids?
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-12-02 12:50
Considering the low cost used Bundys, Vitos, Artleys, etc. command, it only makes sense to buy used, restore them and sell them on as they'll be getting a much better quality clarinet than the ones that are allegedly 'Instructor Approved'.
There may not be much of a profit in doing this (more likely a loss on each one restored and sold on) but at least whoever buys one will be getting an instrument that won't limit them.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2010-12-02 14:15
Most likely all in play these days......
Probably depends on the school system.
Directors do have opinions asto what brands they want their students playing, and if the teacher is qualified, I think it's a good thing.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
Post Edited (2010-12-02 14:15)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2010-12-02 16:48
I agree that it probably depends on the school district how explicit the rules are. I suspect that a teacher systematically profiteering by re-selling instruments to his own students or by taking kick-backs from local vendors would be severely disciplined if not fired pretty much anywhere.
Many teachers I know are careful to avoid any appearance of this kind of behavior. It becomes less clear when equipment like reeds, neckstraps, shoulder pads, rosin, etc.. are involved. Most parents in my school district would *much* rather have the teacher order these things from wherever he likes and simply send the money to him with their children. If the teacher stands on ceremony and resists this by insisting that a parent go to the store or online him/herself to make the purchase, the child may go for a very long time with no reeds. I always made sure the music store I dealt with (who also had a legal contract to provide rental instruments in the district) gave me a receipt that showed what I paid for the merchandise and I charged the child exactly what I paid - which often included a discount that I think the store assumed I would pocket.
Karl
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2010-12-02 17:49
AFTER he retired, our local band director started scrounging up used instruments, made them playable and GAVE them to the schools.
Because the Festival at Sandpoint underwrites the rental costs of 6th graders' instruments, and because of our heavy promotion of instrumental music to 5th graders, we get about 90% "take" for the 6th graders.
When the kids and their parents need to take over the instrument costs in 7th grade, the program comes apart. "Free instruments" help keep the program rolling into junior and senior high school.
The volume of broken instruments serviced by the 3 or 4 music stores between Bonners Ferry, ID and Spokane, WA is huge. Probably a couple dozen per school district.
I recently noted a squashed trombone in the repair stack when I stopped into one of the shops to have a pad seal checked on my clarinet.
Bob Phillips
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-12-02 18:20
I know there's a lot of talk about how terrible it is to have a non-clarinetist recommending products to clarinetists. What seems to be the most problematic is directors who are clarinetists who don't know the first thing about mouthpieces\reeds\ligatures\instruments who recommend bad equipment.
Directors who are clarinetists (or "clarinetists") are more likely to be emphatic about endorsing or recommending a certain product. Many times they were music ed students who didn't spend much time trying different mouthpieces\reeds\ligatures\instruments. Many times their university teacher didn't press them to do this if they had something that functioned, since fine-tuning their setup wasn't something they cared about.
These directors then assume that since they are good at directing a band (which isn't always the case either) that their choice of equipment for an instrument that they (many times) play very little is the only choice and the right choice for their students.
Since they are the director (position of authority) and a clarinetist (up for debate if that is really the case or not) they consider themselves an authority figure for equipment. Sometimes it works, if they play on a reasonable setup.
Sometimes they use a setup that's far away from mainstream or reasonable and stear their students into harms way as far as equipment is concerned.
I would have the same concern for selling as I would for recommendations from band directors. In general I would hope that a band director selling directly to a student would be somewhat of a rare event. Contexts that seem reasonable to me would be if the director was buying a new clarinet and had a good student that needed an upgrade. Also, if the director had a reasonable collection of mouthpieces and offered one for an advanced student to try.
Anything that could look like a business, of either recommending only one store to buy their specific product, or selling quantities of items to student directly would be unethical in my view.
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Author: grifffinity
Date: 2010-12-02 19:53
Quote:
Do schools consider it ethical or unethical for a band teacher to buy used instruments cheaply at flea markets, yard sales and auctions, fix the instruments up and sell them directly to kids?
Is it wrong when a private teacher tries to sell off their old/un-used equipment to private students? Seems there is more of a trust bond there and less room to question whether the equipment is actually good.
I have no problem with your stated scenario as long as the teacher is a decent repair person and is not trying to scam the parents. Nothing wrong with having a side business - as long as the parents have not an obligation to buy, but an option.
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2010-12-02 21:01
If you know anyone who has a subscription to the Instrumentalist Magazine, check out "Music Teachers and the Law" by Barry Morgan in the Nov. 2010 issue.
He discusses some of the questions you ask. Morgan practices law in Georgia, but many of his suggestions will be useful throughout the U.S.
I think most school districts would frown on teachers selling instruments to students or taking kickbacks. As far as smaller items like reeds and neckstraps are concerned, I think most schools would be all right with KDK describes. When I was teaching in public schools, if I had waited for some of the parents to go out and buy reeds, valve oil, and cork grease, I would have waited forever.
Music stores and brands of instruments are a tricky matter. Many school districts near me arrange for one store to handle all their rentals. This is probably all right as long as the district doesn't tell parents they are required to go to that place. Regarding brand names, it is probably best to be careful. If a teacher tells a student that Brand X instruments are junk (or that the XYZ Music Store is a horrible place), the teacher could be sued for slander. It might not be likely, but according to Morgan, it could happen. A teacher who tells parents, "You must buy a Buffet E-11 clarinet with a B45 mouthpiece and a Rovner ligature," is really taking a chance. I know that this kind of thing goes on in some places and nobody complains, but if complaints start coming, the teacher could find himself/herself on shaky ground.
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Author: George Stalle
Date: 2010-12-05 12:07
When I was a school music teacher, If I found a steal on a used instrument, I haggled the price for a parent then passed on the same cost to them. More often than not, the deal was for a needy student. If a parent could really afford a great instrument, I advised them on price and where to get the best deal.
It is NEVER ethical to take any compensation or kickback for an instrument or supplies purchase. PERIOD. Recommend, give options, be helpful. That's it.
On the other hand, if the deal is for one of my private students, I always add in a reasonable amount for myself as commission and my time to find them a good instrument.
I frequently prefer to pick out the instrument for a student but will take them and the parents with me, then charge no more than two hours of lesson time for the "instrument outing".
George Stalle
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Author: Reedirect
Date: 2010-12-05 12:58
I very much aggree with George.
If you have expenses such as spending time with the student and the parents in shops and driving around. A compensation by the hour is absolutely ok. The teacher is an expert and utilizing this expertise is not for free.
It is IMHO unacceptable, not to disclose an affiliation with a certain shop when recommending clarinets, reeds, mouthpieces, and other equipment.
It is IMHO, however, acceptable, if you disclose it so that everybody has the freedom to buy what you have recommended at that particular shop or not.
Best
Jo
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