 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: thedean
Date: 2010-11-25 22:14
Hi there everyone...
I've got a student who just had an assessment for her school music at year 10 level (She's 16) the big thing the assessor had to say was that her musicality and interpretation were spot on but she lacked a steady pulse. He said that she didn't seem to have that internal pulse.
We have done lots of work with a metronome and that made it easier for her, but obviously it is impossible and illegal to take a metronome into an exam.
Has anyone got any hints or tips to try to create an internal pulse, or at least how to get her to overcome this lack of steadiness in her playing.
Thanks Everyone
Dean
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Author: Tony M
Date: 2010-11-26 02:49
Does she ever play in an ensemble? That sometimes helps people tap into an internal rhythm. Maybe playing simple things, something she can have fun with, with a backing track if there isn't an ensemble to play with. Backing tracks can sometimes help people get the feel of subdivisions easier than a metronome. Lots of 'sometimes' here because I'm just guessing really.
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Author: concertmaster3
Date: 2010-11-26 03:10
I actually like the ensemble/backtracks idea myself. It also helps a lot with intonation. One of my students (oboe) has been helped greatly by playing in the youth orchestra. Her sense of rhythm and pitch are growing every lesson.
Ron Ford
Woodwind Specialist
Performer/Teacher/Arranger
http://www.RonFordMusic.com
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-11-26 14:04
Practicing Baermann III with a metronome is the obvious answer, but it must be combined with playing together with a live ensemble.
In the Brahms Trio, the final five bars of the first movement have the clarinet playing sixteenths that have to be in perfect coordination with the cello. You have to listen like crazy and adjust to keep with the cello. Write the cello part out for yourself and play it with her until that awareness kicks in. It's playing a duet and leaning into each other to become a single instrument. This is far different from two good players each playing accurately and happening to stay together.
When I was sent to the principal's office in junior high, they always kept me waiting, to show who's boss. They had a big pendulum clock, and I used to watch the pendulum to get 60 and 120 engraved into my head. Your student can do the same with a metronome, tonguing silently and constantly making tiny adjustments to keep exactly with the beat.
Ed Palanker has written that even at the level of the Baltimore Symphony auditions, the most frequent reason for rejecting a player is inaccurate rhythm. It's something you work on all your life, and it's your student's next step toward becoming a complete musician.
Ken Shaw
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2010-11-27 03:58
A few months learning Indian tala should straighten just about anyone out. Once you can switch out the equivalent of dotted quarters, quarters tied to sixteenths, quarters, dotted eighths, eighths, and sixteenths while clapping on the equivalent of 1, 3, and 4 of 5/8, straight sixteenths in 4/4 should be no problem.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: lhoffman
Date: 2010-11-27 08:49
Have you tried having her use the metronome on small beats? What I mean is, normally a metronome is put on the quarter note, and scales are played in eighths or sixteenths. Reverse it, play scales in half notes with the metronome on quarters or eighths, or even triplets. A lack of pulse is really just a lack of subdividing.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2010-11-27 16:31
How about practicing with overemphasised beats? So every beat, and especially every downbeat, gets a massive accent. So in semiquavers you get ONE two three four TWO two three four THREE two three four... I've noticed that beginner ensembles often neglect this part of the music. Sometimes even marking the beats on the music can help. Rather than depending on the metronome, the player is then encouraged to supply her own beat.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-11-28 14:30
Bassie -
At least for me, massive downbeats make things irregular.
I once sat in on a Kal Opperman brushup lesson with Steve Hartman, a top NYC pro. As Steve played fast scales, Kal clapped on the backbeats, which stabilized tiny rhythmic irregularities.
I know Steve reads the board. His comments would be welcome.
Ken Shaw
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Author: PrincessJ
Date: 2010-11-28 18:48
The above posts cover a lot of what I would suggest, practice sessions involving foot tapping help almost everyone develop a more consistent rhythm, along with playing along to backing tracks or in an ensemble.
Really "feeling" the beat is very important when establishing a natural sense of rhythm, hence the foot tapping, things like this take time and effort, especially if you're not "born with rhythm".
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2010-11-28 19:45
Foot tapping can make things worse just as often as it can make things better. I can't count how many times I've been in ensembles and seen a different rhythm tapped by every foot.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: PrincessJ
Date: 2010-11-28 20:31
Oops! You're right Alex. I meant to say during solo practice only. Never ever tap in an ensemble. Or really on stage for that matter. Just run scales and simple things to get the rhythm going, and then once that's established, there shouldn't be any need for physical rhythm building. It doesn't work for everyone though.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2010-11-28 21:19
Quote:
Foot tapping can make things worse just as often as it can make things better. I can't count how many times I've been in ensembles and seen a different rhythm tapped by every foot. As a matter of fact, I often will tap my foot irregularly to see if I can throw others off in their counting or rhythms. A little musical prank.....
However in relation to the post, what I do (and I've heard others do similar) is make small imperceptible movements. For myself, I act as though I'm moving my heel while keeping the foot on the floor. This causes a "twitch" in my calf. No one can see it (even when I ask them to watch to see what I do) and it helps me to keep a steady rhythm. Others tap their big toe or some other small movement.
How to make your internal clock better....I would work on syncopation or any other drumming pattern. No one is supposed to count better than those percussionists. I'd check out what THEY do to work on steady rhythm and counting.
Alexi
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Author: Tony M
Date: 2010-11-28 22:09
A metronome trick might help. If your student is at school then I'm assuming that she has a computer. I'm also assuming that she has access to a metronome in the computer. Two assumptions but I'll continue.
Record the metronome on the computer (or just use the music program - very easy in garageband but she may well be pc). Then take out occasional bars so there are gaps, e.g., beat-beat-beat-beat-silence-silence-silence-silence-beat-beat-beat-beat, and so on with as many variations as she feels appropriate.
The point is that she immediately replaces the metronome beat with her internal sense of the pulse and then is rewarded when the beat comes back and she is in time. It builds confidence and accuracy.
And play with an ensemble.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-11-28 22:52
For me, it was very important to realize that rhythm is the PROPORTION of one sound to another. Perhaps one needs to visualize four quarter notes as for every-day, common chairs. If you have four identical chairs lined up next to one another you couldn't even imagine the third or second in a line would be one third as wide or worse, a half as much wider. And yet we (of poor rhythm) play quarter notes like that all day long (whether accompanied by a metronome or subdivided to death).
So it all comes down to THE SYMMETRY OF SOUND you are producing.
........................Paul Aviles
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Author: PrincessJ
Date: 2010-11-28 23:23
Interesting concept, Paul. I like the idea of visualizing the beat, and it's also important to take in to question - how does the person learn the easiest? Visually? Physically? Things like these can be learned many ways, it's just a matter of what works the best for the particular student.
And definitely speak with a drummer/percussionist. They'll be able to help to a certain degree - maybe direct her to some books for percussion that she can noodle around with a metronome.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2010-11-29 16:17
Originally posted by 'Rusty', elsewhere on this board:
I thought the music was in four
Until I saw your foot
But now I think it must be three
Or maybe five, I can`t quite see
Or six? or maybe not
I thought this piece was rather slow
Until I saw your foot
But now I think it`s double speed
Some times it`s very fast indeed
And other times it`s not.
I thought conductors gave the speed
Until I saw your foot.
But now I think it is rather neat
To look at all the tapping feet
And choose the speed that I prefer
And play along with him or her.
I think it helps a lot
I thought my timing was all wrong
Until I saw your foot.
Conductors beat both east and west
But we don`t play with all the rest
We`ve found a tempo of our own
And bar by bar our love has grown
Oh I was feeling so alone
Until I saw your foot.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-11-29 17:36
I'm glad we've brought up the "foot thing."
I have a student who was very upset by an earlier teacher who made her "tap her foot."
I must say I NEVER understood this. We are not organists; nor set drum players. Adding in a moving appendage that needs not be moving only adds a further complication (and causes the spontaneous posting of verse).
The sooner we realize that the ONLY rhythm that anyone else hears is the relationship between the note we just played and the note we are playing, the better off we will all be.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Tony M
Date: 2010-11-29 20:14
"Adding in a moving appendage that needs not be moving only adds a further complication"
I have to agree. I came to clarinet after playing guitar for some years and it took me a while to stop breathing percussively and I had to train myself to be still and allow myself to form a proper airflow. Foot tapping helped with guitar but not with clarinet. Of course people will have different experiences but this was one of the things that I had to focus on to realise that I was playing clarinet and not just playing melodies on a different instrument.
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Author: ned
Date: 2010-11-30 10:09
''Foot tapping can make things worse just as often as it can make things better. I can't count how many times I've been in ensembles and seen a different rhythm tapped by every foot.''
This is what you SAW, what did you HEAR though?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-11-30 17:52
Dear ned,
.......PRECISELY !!!!!!
Actually I think you meant to be critical from the other direction, but that's ok.
I was just mulling over this issue quite a bit the last few days and think I have an even better description of the issue at hand.
The sounds we produce define space in time, so let's say that the quarter notes we are presently playing are a half of a second long. In this example a measure of four quarter notes (shown in seconds) would look like this:
.50, .50, .50, .50
a faulty rhythmic example of the same passage might look like this:
.51, .50, .48, .59
So for me, faulty rhythm is NOT mistaking a dotted quarter and a sixteenth for two eighth notes, it is playing things without the beauty of symmetrical proportion.
And getting back to the feet......... exactly, the sound of the performance was probably much better than the visual. So what does that say about "foot tapping" as a viable tool?
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: ned
Date: 2010-11-30 19:47
''So what does that say about "foot tapping" as a viable tool?''
OK point taken. Some do, some don't. I do, you don't.
Now that this has been peacefully settled, how about playing with eyes open or eyes shut?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-11-30 20:45
Another brilliant question (I wish I knew if you were kidding).
If you're the soloist, playing from memory, dictating the ebb and flow, I don't see any reason why eyes closed shouldn't be the way to go.
However,
Some of the best cues you will get (besides the length of the sound just before you enter) are the visual cues of movements from the players with whom you will be entering. Best example of this EVER is the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra (a conductorless ensemble). I am constantly bowled over by the phenomenal renditions on every new recording all done WITHOUT a conductor to beat time. But you know they MUST listen "like cats" and watch "like hawks" every moment!
...............Paul Aviles
P.S. You were kidding, right?
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Author: Tony M
Date: 2010-11-30 21:46
Eyes open or closed? A singer I know never closes his eyes but I'm convinced that it is so that he can be sure that people are watching him.
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Author: thedean
Date: 2010-11-30 23:08
Wow! Never thought I'd open up such a riveting discussion.
Few answers, she does play in an ensemble, concert band, she seems to do a lot better in there, i think though that it has something more to do with impatience because she seems to obviously lack pulse over half or whole notes.
She had started tapping her foot, in practice, i guess she liked doing this because it gave her that feeling of pulse, however i told her to stop because she started to get really heavy and her whole body would move therefore affecting her sound.
I will try a few of these ideas, particularly playing quarter note scales and having the metronome of sixteenths or eighth notes.
And we are starting Baermann III so that is obviously what will be happening. I have explained to her the importance of the pulse and she understands it, but obviously making it happen is a totally different story.
Thanks so much everyone for feedback
Dean
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2010-12-01 22:55
My rhythm is erratic.
My metronome speeds up when things get tough.
My teacher wants to see SOMETHING to indicate that I have an internal pulse going on and encourages me to tap a foot.
My ww5 has players who HATE having a foot tapping distraction going on anywhere in sight.
I blew an audition by deciding that the listener's foot tapping should be come my "audition metronome." GADS.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Gandalfe
Date: 2010-12-02 20:15
Another trick or learning method that I use is to vocalize a rhythm while I'm walking. Yes I loved marching band and the twenty years in the military didn't hurt. But when I have a tough part to play, especially with off beat hits and jazz syncopation, I like to memorize that part and sing it while I walk. YMMV.
Jim and Suzy
Pacifica Big Band
Seattle, Washington
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Author: ned
Date: 2010-12-09 02:53
...............Paul Aviles
P.S. You were kidding, right?
No, not really Paul.
I quite often shut my eyes, to aid concentration. My bag is new orleans jazz, so I don't need to look at the dots and only occasionally do I need to follow a chord chart.
If I want to play with my eyes open I concentrate on the keys (if need be) or some spot on a far wall, but never the audience.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-12-09 12:54
Another thing students can do is learn to dance -- in a class with partners or alone with a Wii or even alone with a CD. Unfortunately, people who ain't got rhythm are also the people who absolutely refuse to dance, yet I'm convinced that dancing trains the body to feel a rhythmic pulse better than any other learning method.
Parents can help kids develop rhythmic sense, too, by encouraging them to "drum" on anything handy. Back in the day when I was too young to ride the woolly mammoth to school, my mom used to let me sit on the kitchen floor with a pan and a wooden spoon. She'd sing while she cooked or sewed and I'd sing along and provide percussion accompaniment. How on earth she stood what must have been one horrific racket is beyond me!
When I was about nine or ten, she wanted to sign me up for ballet lessons, since I loved ballet, but when I found out what the lessons would cost, I said no and went the amateur rock 'n' roll route with friends instead, though KEWB 91 blaring from the radio really did annoy her....
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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