 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-10-26 16:42
It's a sad fact but I heard on CNN today that some university did a study and found that there are at least 500 PHDs, that might include DMA graduates as well, that are working as janitors. Another 17 million, that figure could be too high, with master degrees are working as waiters, construction workers, car washes etc. just to make ends meet and pay off their student loans. There are so many students that stay in school to get their higher degrees because the job market is so slow that they accumulate ridiculously large student loans. I wonder how many of them are musicians, especially clarinet players, since we graduate so many each year from the numerous number of schools with performance degrees these days only to find that there simply are no orchestra job openings. Good thing the military bands have openings every year, orchestras sure don't. That's even when times are good. Check my website to see what it takes to get an orchestra job in America if you're considering it as a profession, ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2010-10-26 16:48
A colleague of mine wonders why anyone would ever give a music major a loan --when they know that the graduate will never be able to pay it back.
And, why should an education in America cost so darn much anyway?
Before Ronald Reagan "Cleaned up that mess in Berkeley," one could go to school for a few hundred dollars (not thousands, or tens of thousands) an academic year.
Bob Phillips
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-10-26 17:15
Ed, if that Washington Post writer gets his way, there may not be any military band gigs in the future either.
College tuition in the US has increased much faster than the inflation rate every year for at least the past 20 years. I asked a friend who works as an administrator in a local university about this, and he had no good answer to offer.
Thank goodness my ex-wife and I, with help from both sets of in-laws, purchased prepaid college tuition plans for each of our three daughters right after they were born. Otherwise I don't see how we would be able to afford college for them once they reach that age (the oldest will be there in three years). In-state tuition at my alma mater has increased by a factor of twenty-nine (29) since I did my undergraduate work there (that's 29 TIMES higher, not 29% higher).
Post Edited (2010-10-26 17:34)
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2010-10-26 17:39
On the flip-side, universities tend to hand out PHDs like happy meal toys if you put in the time and money. While there are countless awesome PHDs out there, there are also a lot who have gone through the motions, written the papers, and provided no meaningful contribution nor proven themselves worthy of the title. I've come across people where I've thought "someone gave that person a DOCTORATE? In MUSIC???"
Just because you have a doctorate doesn't mean you're competent in the field, just that you're competent in passing university requirements.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2010-10-26 17:45
Ed,
Thanks for being one of the few in your position who have spoken out about this truthfully. We see so many kids, some of whom post here, wondering where to apply, how to get a orchestra job, etc. They all say the same things: "Music is my life" "I'm willing to work hard" etc. When they're told "there probably won't be a job for you" they take it as a challenge to their resolve, and respond with admirable adolescent gusto. But all of their bravado will be absolutely useless in four years when they find out the hard way.
To all the young players this might apply to: please read Ed Palanker's website. What he says is true.
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2010-10-26 18:23
I won't take students who are dead set on getting degrees in performance unless they either take a double major in college or convince me that they know that have virtually no chance of playing professionally full-time.
That policy at least has resulted in a passle of clarinetists who still enjoy playing.
B.
Post Edited (2010-10-26 18:23)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-10-26 19:00
Alex, I totally agree with you about graduate degrees in general.
I began at the Mannes School of Music in 1957 but I graduated from the Manhattan School of Music, now called college of music, in 1962 and got a job in the Halifax Nova Scotia Symphony right out of school, I was lucky. The next year I landed my present position in the Baltimore Symphony, it's my 48th year. Musicians keep their jobs forever unless they move up. My first year at Manhattan, or Mannes I can't remember, my tuition was, ready for this, $600 a year, I got a half scholarship, good thing too, my father drove a bread truck but they supported my dream. How much is tuition now? Of course I lived at home in the Bronx so I didn't have to pay room and board, they didn't even have facilities then anyway. Now most schools require that you live on campus for at least the first two years. That's 50 - 60K at most private schools, maybe even more by now. And to make matters worse almost every clarinet teacher in the country recruits to fill their studio. I understand that as long as they're honest with the student about their chances, or lack of them I should say. Far to many schools of music encouraging students to get a performance degree. Maybe most of them can become janitors too. I think I had a couple of dozen choices to choose from when I began college in 57, I bet there are now at least 100 or more schools of music that offer performance degrees in our colleges, university's and conservatories. Is there no end to this nightmare? Help? ESP
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2010-10-26 20:05
Alex,
Another analogy for PhD degrees it that the student first bleeds a bucket of blood, then carries that bucket around until it scabs over before being allowed to be advanced to candidacy.
Several of the colleges at my university would admit PhD candidates and then wash them out with a Master's degree of they could not pass the (oral) qualifying exams.
A good school will know that their PhDs will walk around for their whole life with the school's logo stamped on their forehead for all to see --and NOT want to be embarrassed by having that display on an incompetent.
Somewhere above the diploma mills graduates, PdD's are actually competent.
Bob Phillips
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2010-10-26 20:22
@ Bob Phillips,
I wish schools would do a better job of making sure their PhD graduates were competent. I know several people with PhD's in engineering from some of the top schools in the world (MIT, etc.) who I wouldn't hire to run a fryer at McDonalds. As was mentioned before, there are far too many PhD's who have basically never done anything except go to school and yet expect to be regarded as "experts" in their field.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2010-10-26 21:22
I don't know about Ph.D's in the UK, but I've certainly met Masters graduates whose understanding of their field could fit on the back of a postage stamp. I guess that's what happens when you send half the population to "university".
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2010-10-26 22:41
Bassie wrote:
I guess that's what happens
> when you send half the population to "university".
Bingo! It is NOT elitist to say that not everyone needs a four-year degree or advanced study, and that not everyone is well served by pursuing a four year degree or advanced study. There are so many life paths, and frankly so many good careers that a young person can enter with a more targeted, shorter educational course.
Then there are people like Alex who feel the attraction of making their own way, or the young brothers in our neighborhood who started a drive through coffee stop at around age 19 and 21.
I made the comment when my sister was in town that I was the only one of my siblings who went to private university for undergraduate, yet I am the only one without at least a masters now. She lives in a pretty upscale world, but her response was "Well, you haven't really needed one to do what you wanted to do".
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Author: ned
Date: 2010-10-27 00:50
''And, why should an education in America cost so darn much anyway?''
''College tuition in the US has increased much faster than the inflation rate every year for at least the past 20 years.''
University education these days is run by industry. Universities are businesses - they need to make money and they need to churn out as many graduates as possible. The manufacture of PhDs is the icing on the cake for them.
In Australia, whilst there is public funding for the majority of tertiary institutions, successive governments have gradually whittled away this funding so that our ''public'' universities are becoming de facto private institutions.
We are becoming Americanised unfortunately, with respect to education. My children are probably going to have to pay through the nose to educate their children.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2010-10-27 03:17
@BobPhillips:
Unfortunately, equally many that are NOT diploma mills still graduate hacks. This is because, in some fields (*cough*conducting*cough*), there are too few competent people out there, and you end up with a blind-granting-PhDs-to-the-blind scenario. Even in fields that DO have lots of good people, sometimes some schools just haven't gotten their hands on them.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2010-10-27 03:50
For me, the worst thing about it all is that, with the glut of people with graduate degrees out there, the requirements for job candidates gets more credential-heavy every day, shutting out those who can't afford one, two, or more degrees beyond the undergrad degree, regardless of how adept they may be in their fields.
So here we are again: only those people who can afford two or more additional years in school are selected for by recruiters, and with "degree inflation," at least one grad. degree is increasingly necessary to get your foot in the door.
The rich get richer....
B
(Wondering what new degree will be invented when everyone has a Ph.D.)
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Author: grifffinity
Date: 2010-10-27 04:06
What irritates me most is the fact that a majority of colleges require a PhD to teach in performance related fields. However, having a PhD does not make one a natural pedagogue, nor a better player/performer/artist, etc. The performing arts should be approached in an apprenticeship sort of way, like any other area of craftsmanship.
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2010-10-27 12:09
To answer bmcgar's question--the post-doc. In many fields, this is now required if one wants to get a job in the academic world.
When I attended college in the 70s, I had several professors who had only a masters. They were competent, and nobody ever noticed that they didn't have the PhD. In fact, our department even had two applied music professors who had only bachelor's degrees, although both had extensive performance experience.
Many of the legendary college band directors of the past had only masters degrees. This would never happen anymore. I know of a highly-regarded university associate director of bands who has tried to "move up." Because he doesn't have a PhD, nobody will consider him for a top job.
As others have pointed out, having a PhD often doesn't really mean much anymore. I can think of some music and education doctoral dissertations I've read on line, and without naming any names, I'm not impressed at all. One music ed. dissertation in particular (please don't ask me to say which one!) is quite honestly 20% substance and 80% fluff.
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2010-10-27 12:40
As long as there are DMA and Phd clarinetists with teaching gigs at universities there will always be starry eyed kids at those universities. These teachers aren't going to let their gigs disappear. University clarinet recruiting is the one place I've seen more "truth flexibility" than with military recruiters. For a teacher to tell a prospective student that he or she has the talent to "make it" if they practice and study intensely and come to their school and study them smacks of malpractice.
When I returned to UofMD in 2001 to finish my BM and Masters, there were first year students that had never played through Rose Etudes, these were performance majors. Now in my own defense I was paid to go back to school, there is no way the education was worth what they were charging or would I have gone back and pay for it.
When I was auditioning Clarinetists for the U.S. Army Field Band, we had an audition in the late 90's that involved 15 or so clarinetists. In this group were two players both from a very expensive music school in "Chicago land" Both of whom had studied with a "very famous" clarinetist/religious figure(who shall remain nameless) one ABD on a DMA with $90K of student loans, the other with $70K. The Army at the time paying off up to $60k of your loans. Neither of the aforementioned players made it past the behind the screen prelims. In short they really couldn't play very well at all. AND get this, when I announced the numbers of the candidates that were advancing, they approached me and asked " Do you know who our teacher is?" Maybe they didn't know how stuff works maybe it's a generational difference, but I can't ever imagine asking someone on a committee that question.
It's sad but there really isn't a profession anymore. The few gigs that are out there are getting really squirly with their auditions. If Ricardo takes NY, all that means is Philly will have auditions and not hire anyone either, I mean if Ny is so good that they can't find a qualified candidate Philly will take twice as long as NY and Chicago. Do you really want your kids going into a Business like this????
Tom Puwalski, former clarinet soloist and principal clarinetist with the U.S. Army Field Band, author of The Clarinetist's Guide to Klezmer, More Klezmer Gig tunes and coming soon Clarinet Basic Training.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-10-27 18:32
Tom, I liked the story about the two students that asked you if you knew who their teacher was, what gall. That's the reason that almost all, if not all, professional orchestra in the USA have behind the screen auditions, so it's only your playing that get's you the job, not who you know. Eddie
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2010-10-27 18:55
Was it here that I read a post that said something along the line of with our educational system going the way it is, someday our pizza delivery guys will PhDs?
Anyway, I did have the delusion at one time of playing professionally (as I'm sure a lot of us had). I know that I'm not that calibur of player, but I'm ok with that. I play in community groups and I like that. I don't know anything about it, but I wonder how much pressure the pros are under to constantly be at the top of their game?
I know I've gone through periods where I can't pick up a horn, no matter how hard I try (ah, the hell bipolar disorder at times). If a pro goes through something like that, does that mean their job is in jeopardy? One of the (many) reasons I play is that playing is one of the few things I can do that doesn't stress me out. If the really talented players in the world went away (for whatever reason) leading to me actually landing a pro job, would I stop enjoying it? I've contemplated that many times.
My boyfriend and talk at times about starting up something (he's a percusionist). I'm not sure what we would do, but it's intrigueing.
Rachel
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Author: rgames
Date: 2010-10-29 05:01
When looking at the value of any degree you need to consider the subject area and how it relates to success in that field.
Consider this:
How many of music's great leaders have the equivalent of a doctorate?
How mant of science's great leaders have the equivalent of a doctorate?
In my (humble) opinion, music is much more of an experience-based profession than a formal-learning-based profession. To that end, it's more like sports than science yet we treat it more like science than sports. Who gets a PhD in golf?
Furthermore, the economic value of the degree is highly dependent upon subject area. Graduate students in science and engineering almost always (probably more than 90% of the time at the major schools) *get paid* to complete their degrees. In other words, they have tuition paid for and get a stipend on top of that. What's the percentage in the music world? I don't know for sure, but in my experience it's a lot less. Loading up a pile of debt also devalues a degree. In fact, science/engineering graduate stipends (i.e. the "paycheck" beyond the tuition costs) often exceed the salaries for smaller orchestras.
I've discussed this exact issue with a number of musicians/comopsers and there's another interesting point that always comes up: it seems that the push towards graduate degrees in music has correlated with the decline in concert-going audiences. Coincidence? Are we really making better musicians and composers? Of course there's a chicken-egg effect there so it's tough to conclude causation but there is correlation.
rgames
____________________________
Richard G. Ames
Composer - Arranger - Producer
www.rgamesmusic.com
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2010-10-29 05:23
One of my bumper stickers reads: "Be Part Of The Problem. Get Your MBA"
One way of looking at graduate school is to compute its net present value. One considers the reduced (? according to Richard G. Ames) income while pursuing the degree, the costs involved and the (hopefully) increased salary when the degree is completed, and it has caused a monstrous raise --or a new employer.
I helped a young apprentice of mine apply to a flock of top-line business schools, and a couple of them attempted to put such a calculation in their brochure as a marketing tool. THEY ALL GOT IT WRONG!
Bob Phillips
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-10-29 11:33
The situation may be completely different in music, but in my experience (as a science/engineering grad. student) taking out loans for a PhD is rare.
Most grad. students have plenty of other opportunities to pay for their education without having to take out loans--graduate assistantships (teaching or research) and fellowships, employer funding, etc.
My master's degree was free, for instance. I made good grades in college and was awarded a fellowship which paid for it all.
Law school, on the other hand, was a different story (but that was grad. school--that was professional school, and the salaries getting out are high enough to justify borrowing).
The really sad thing, in my opinion, is not that there aren't jobs out there for folks with PhDs. It's that so few Americans have the motivation to pursue post-baccalaureate studies. We in the U.S. are fortunate to have one of the world's finest (if not the world's finest) "system" of higher education, but if you look at who's going to grad. school here (in other fields besides music, anyway) it's largely foreign students, who view education as something more than mere vocational training. Most of my fellow engineering grads were content to get a job straight out of college--guys like me who stayed on to further their education were rare.
I think that's sad because it means that we as a country place a relatively low value on education, and what we place a low value on will necessarily decline in value out of sheer neglect.
It's a similar situation to what we see with music/arts education. One of the most important things music education teaches is the value of hard work and delayed gratification--that it's worth it to practice at something for 2 hours a day to perfect a skill. Other cultures (such as the Japanese, for example) know this, but we in the U.S. seem to have lost sight of that.
I've got to get to work, so I'll get off my soapbox now.... :-)
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2010-10-29 15:03
The prevalence of foreign students getting PhDs may be high in engineering, but I don't know if that's an accurate statement across the board.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: William
Date: 2010-10-29 15:27
When I went to music school in the early 1960's, many of our teachers were there because they were good as what they did, not how many post doctoral degrees they had aquired. In fact, none of our wind faculty members, as I recall, had DMA's. In fact, our horn instructor had not completed his high school diploma--he was hired because he had played with the NY Woodwind Quintet, the NY Philharmonic Orchestra, many film sound tracks and was considered at that time by his peers to be one of the two best horn players in the world. It is sad to think that he probably would have been unemployable in these days without the now-required DMA. BTW, he took the job at our University because he was simply tired of the music scene of the "big city" and more interested in passing his experiance onto horn students. Similarily, our professor of flute can to us from the Philadelphia Orchestra's principal chair and our bassoon instructor from the Chicago Symphony--none had advanced degrees and all were tired of the professional level "rat race". They were hired to be our teachers simply because they were great players who could teach and lead by example.
Why do universities require DMA's of the faculty?? No other reason except for advertising and attracting prospective "starry eyed" students fill their classrooms and pay tuition fees. It's all about economics and not about education anymore. Our universities blindly keep churning out the DMA's to keep students in school longer and simply, make more make money. The big myth is, you have to have a PHD or DMA to be good enough to "get that job"--and now, the only real-world job may very well be to pump gas or flip burgers.
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Author: William
Date: 2010-10-29 17:34
Alex--LOL. To quote an old song, "and the beat goes on.........the beat goes on...."
However, the real reason for having a DMA program is...........(complete sentence ad nauseum).
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2010-10-29 23:42
This reminds me of something I heard many years ago, and some of you may have heard it before:
Many people earn a B.S. degree. Not to take anything away from those who have worked hard for this degree, but we all know what B.S. can stand for . . .
Some go on to earn a M.S., and this can stand for "More [of the] Same" . . .
Finally, for those who go on to get a PhD, this is really just the same stuff, only
"Piled [on] Higher [and] Deeper."
Post Edited (2010-10-29 23:44)
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Author: William
Date: 2010-10-30 16:45
LOL--and most likely, in the near future, that pile of [whatever] may no longer be high enough and universities will require X amount of post doctoral "compost embellished" credentials for instructors to teach entry level post doctoral programs. How much higher will institutions of "higher education" have to go to keep ahead of the pack and win the race for more students--and more tuition?
In the end, the old law of supply and demand may put an end to the problem of too many DMA's who can't find work. The value of a university degree is actually in a state of decline already in favor of the community college with it's more relevant--and less expensive--curriculum and tuition. What this country needs is more qualified "blue collar" workers and less of the overly qualified "white collar" types.
Soooooo, if you think your are good and want to learn to be a "professional" clarinetist, go find a great teacher and spend whatever amount of time in takes in the practice room developing your musical skills. The audition committee will never ask you for a DMA degree and paying for all those private lessons will be cheaper. However, if your abition is to teach in a college, get your much more expensive DMA and be prepared to stand in a long line waiting for a job. Unfortunately, for the aspiring young clarinetist, there are risks with both courses of study and no guarantees for meaningful employment.
OK--done with doom & gloom.....Happy Holloween. I'm back to the practice room trying to retain some clarineting skills in my old age.
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2010-11-02 23:32
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> And get diction lessons too.
>
>
> That way when you are in charge of the drive thru, it will be
> clear to the customer what you just asked.
Hehehe!
(Actually, that's funny yet true. I worked in fast food for 9 years, mostly as a manager).
Rachel
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Author: Ed
Date: 2010-11-03 16:26
It is so sad to see that there are so many conservatories, colleges, conservatories, etc where they pump the students out so they can remain an active music department. For example, I was always floored to see all of the schools graduating a ton of Classical saxophone performance majors. Where are these people planning on playing? In a professional sax quartet? playing the wealth of orchestral literature? as a major soloist?
Just yesterday I was at a small local university playing in a band repertoire workshop for music educators. A young university student turned to one of my colleagues and proudly stated that she was a clarinet performance major. My first thought was "and what will she do when she gets out in a few months?" Whenever I have any advanced students who tell me that they wish to go in to performance I try to explain what the options are.
Ed P as always, makes some great points about the topic.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2010-11-04 06:34
On the other hand, I partially blame the graduates. While they're not as readily employable as, say, an engineering or business major, music graduates have an array of skills that could be adapted in many ways, giving a creative graduate an order of magnitude more options than, say, a philosophy major, whose only real options are philosophy teacher or random job that they can now bring a bit of extra perspective to.
With aptitudes ranging from basic to advanced in instrumental performance, rhythm, improvisation, singing, piano, theory, composition, history, etc., a musician is equipped for a variety of opportunities, much more than someone who's done nothing but a bunch of research papers. But does the musician apply himself? Does he form a rock band, does he go out into the world and share music, does he play at parties, does he try to find out all the cool ways he can put his skills to use in ways others may appreciate and maybe pay him for? Does he go out of his way to enrich the musical community and make music a relevant and necessary part of everyday life?
No. He spends countless hours practicing pointless little snippets in hope of a job he'll probably never get. He clings so ass-clenchingly tightly to the classical world and to the notion that someone will create a job and hire him for it. He only performs at "performances," won't touch popular music with a ten-foot pole, and looks at improvisation as something only jazzers do. Even the jazzers look at improvisation as something that can only be done in the jazz idiom. He pores away at treatises for hours trying to figure out whether Brahms meant to write an F or F sharp, when in all likelihood Brahms may not have given a sh*t which you played and just wrote down a note so he could go to bed for the night.
People love music. Almost everyone out there listens to the radio or an iPod or CDs. And they're extremely appreciative of live music, especially GOOD live music, the kind that music graduates are well-equipped to make, if they'd get off their Mozart-concerto-drilling butts and try to do something engaging. Classical, contemporary, metal, folk, rock, reggae, whatever. If you do it well, and you do it in a manner of "I'm here to share some awesome music" rather than "come listen to me because this has been declared important by some consortium you could give a f*ck about," people will probably listen to you. And with listeners comes ticket sales, CD sales, merchandise, etc.
In the past year, I've founded a dance party band, co-founded a metal band, joined a folk/bluegrass band, delved into neglected corners of clarinet extended techniques, and started a guerilla urban music collective, and have more projects in the works. They're all in their early stages, but they're also all marketable, with some paying gigs already. And they're all things I got into by just trying them, finding no good reason why I couldn't.
People need to look at a music degree as something that gives you skills to be a musician/performer/entertainer, allowing you to create opportunities for yourself. Instead, most people look at it as a degree that will get you a job, like those in engineering or business, which is what a music degree is NOT.
But no, I see countless graduates who think they'll get an orchestral or university gig, have a fleeting, unfulfilling studio of students that's getting them by (barely), and think that forming a wind quintet is a way of being proactive in expanding their musical presence. They may even make a record, and it may sell in the dozens, or even hundreds, of copies, possibly enough to cover the expenses of recording and pressing the discs! Perhaps they go out on tour, to perform clarinet for audiences made up almost entirely of other clarinetists. Suggest to them the possibility of doing something outside of the mainstream classical institution, and they look at you with a blank stare of confusion, as if playing doom metal was as unrelated to their skillset as parkour or scuba diving or brain surgery. I've found many quite capable musicians almost violently averse to trying something they weren't exactly trained to do.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2010-11-04 15:08
Alex, I have really enjoyed your contributions to this thread and look forward to your research paper on the state of flexion of a certain muscle of the backside in musicians. What is a guerilla urban music collective?
EEBaum wrote:
>
> People need to look at a music degree as something that gives
> you skills to be a musician/performer/entertainer, allowing you
> to create opportunities for yourself. Instead, most people
> look at it as a degree that will get you a job, like those in
> engineering or business, which is what a music degree is NOT.
I am not as adventurous as you are, but my musical journey has taken me places I certainly never would have expected. Thanks for the reminder about being open to what life brings and about going out to create the life you envision -- I am at a spot in my life where I could use that!
Barb
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2010-11-04 22:23
Don't hold your breath for the research paper. See my above posts for insight as to why that probably won't happen.
A guerilla music collective is a group of a bunch of musicians that do musical things at random, often unannounced, in places throughout the city. Been dormant for the past month or two, looking to get it going again next week. We do stuff like playing In C at the beach ("In C In Sea"), and performing music for car horns.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2010-11-05 02:11
This has been an extremely interesting thread to read.
It's interesting that many musicians can perform at a professional level out of high school. When's the last time you heard about a professional soloist (clarinetist) who we knew was good after they got their DMA or MA or BA? Hardly...most are identified at a young age and are brought into DMA programs or college programs at a very young age to study with a particular performer. Free of charge of course.
But this, naturally, isn't the norm. As a scientist and musician I empathize with many of the folks here. Back to the original topic at hand, it is likely that most of those Ph.D.'s that are working as janitors or fast-food clerks probably are doctors of a field in the liberal arts. I only know of a handful of Ph.D.'s who are in a science field (analytical or engineering sciences) who is now unemployed (not willingly). Not to say it doesn't happen, but it's very rare. But back to my original point, these are learned fields, not fields that you can just waltz out of high school and do well. Rarely will you find a high school senior who knows how to design a refinery or architect a building or design a fire resistant fabric. But often can you find the clarinetist who can play the dickens out of Daphne et Chloe or Weber 2 or Mozart.
The cost of education is indeed ridiculous. But it's not as crazy as you might think. Almost 70% of students who go to a four-year college pay less than $8,000/year for their tuition. Here's another comparison (from the data I could find readily): The average income rose 6.4% from 1993 to 2000 (from the US Census Bureau). The average cost that a student pays out of pocket (tuition/boarding after grants and scholarships) for the same time period has risen 3.8% for private schools and 4.2% for public schools (the most expensive institutions went up about 6.7%) (data from the National Center for Education Statistics).
But the reality is simple supply and demand economics. The demand for universities to issue diplomas is through the roof (i.e. a lot of students apply). No, we don't place enough emphasis on trades but nor is there the right distribution of majors graduating college. There are some majors where every single person will graduate with a job and job openings will remain (systems engineering, materials science, computer science, e.g.). Other majors might see 10% (Trombone Performance, Creative Writing, Turf Management -- yes, T.M. is a real major). But there are a lot of companies out there that would take a degree in philosophy to fill a position - the problem is that in our big public universities that have 500 graduates in each program, the time is not paid to the students to educate them on the opportunities out there that they might not know about. For example, so few English or Psychology majors realize that there is a huge demand for anyone with an analytical background in the consulting world (which, by the way, is booming right now). Of the ~50 people in my Chemical Engineering class, almost a third went into the financial or consulting arena. A quarter went to grad school and the remaining have jobs related to engineering.
At Bob's comment about school's giving "substandard Ph.D." candidates MS degrees, I would only hope that universities would be able to select the most qualified Ph.D. candidates to accept into their programs. Why would the university accept a student they thought may even have a chance at failing? In the sciences, like someone already said, very few people (and nobody at the good universities) pay any tuition in a Ph.D. program. Just to give you an idea of what the financials are like in engineering, the university I was accepted into (I didn't end up doing grad school at that point in my life) when I applied to a Ph.D. program, gave me a full tuition waiver, no student fees, a free parking space, and about $20,000 to live on.
In the end none of this really matters. The good programs churn out good graduates most of the time. Mediocre universities churn out mediocre graduates most of the time and likewise for not-so-good colleges. Music is on an island with drama and the rest of the performing arts. As long as supply of students wishing to study music remains high, don't expect to get any tuition breaks. There's no incentive for universities to decrease tuition and I see graduate music degrees as an escape from the reality that they'll likely never have a job in the industry they've niched themselves into.
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2010-11-07 00:15
Clarinetist04 said:
It's interesting that many musicians can perform at a professional level out of high school.
It might be somewhat rare, but it does happen. A few years ago, I attended a clarinet seminar organized by a major university. One of the performers was a high school student playing the Stravinsky Three Pieces. When I heard him, I was stunned. He was an amazing player who played as well as or better than many graduate students I've heard.
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Author: Ronish
Date: 2010-11-09 07:42
I can`t help thinking we are missing a point here. So some colleges turn out bad degrees and some graduates walk away thinking the world should come to them and there are many who can`t find an appropriate job on completion but education never hurt anyone.
The more we learn the better are our chances of a healthy, happy and successful life and the greater is our value to our nation whatever we end up doing.
I was surprised to learn that by 2050(?) Australia wants to try and have 40% of our population college graduates. That is a huge leap but an essential one if you expect your country to compete with others in the world today.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-11-09 08:11
> I was surprised to learn that by 2050(?) Australia wants to try and have
> 40% of our population college graduates. That is a huge leap but an
> essential one if you expect your country to compete with others in the
> world today.
And what would one do with all these academics? They simply push non-academics out of their jobs. Hey, when I can have a doctor flip my burgers, why should I take one who can barely read? You think all these academics will help the country if they don't find an adequate job where they can pay back their student loans?
Problem is that educations below academic level will be considered "inadequate" and "worthless". If the trend continues like this, even the cleaning folks in the newspapers will need a literature degree. And kids who want to learn some honest trade will not find a training position because they were only mediocre pupils and thus finished school with a less-than-desirable degree.
--
Ben
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2010-11-09 11:56
Ronish-
I can`t help thinking we are missing a point here. So some colleges turn out bad degrees and some graduates walk away thinking the world should come to them and there are many who can`t find an appropriate job on completion but education never hurt anyone.
The more we learn the better are our chances of a healthy, happy and successful life and the greater is our value to our nation whatever we end up doing.
The problem is that the education in question is expensive.
When I finished grad school, I had $30K in debt. "Education is a good thing" is a nice thing to say, but the whole point of paying $$$ to get the degree was the hope that I will get more than if I didn't have the degree- thus, it pays for itself in the long run.
But with a lot of education, it seems like the opposite. A chicken-egg race where you have to be "qualified", but not "too qualified".
Post Edited (2010-11-09 11:57)
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Author: Ronish
Date: 2010-11-10 20:15
I`m sorry that I can`t agree. Are you saying that grandpa a 100 yrs ago should` t have gone to high school or saying that Bill whose job it was to feed the pigs should not learn to read and write because he probably would never need it and his mate in the next farm would feel disadvantaged.
We are talking about raising the standard of the whole population and this as a result means more qualified graduates.
It is sad that someone who has put in years and $$ on a degree ends up putting wheels on cars and is over qualified for that job, but I still think that person is a better person for having done the education. Education is a lifetime job in as many fields that you can cram in and of course there are some you will never use.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-11-10 20:39
I think I didn't make myself clear:
Just because we try to graduate everyone and their cousin will not create one single additional job for these graduates. It's a marketplace, with supply and demand. Currently demand seems to be low, and providing more supply won't magically increase the demand.
On the other hand, I frankly admit, we cannot just create graduates out of thin air should the demand suddenly increase.
The art consists in having just a fractionally higher supply of graduates than there is demand for, at any given time. Increasing the supply way over what is demanded will just be a waste of money and time.
And a pig's demand for graduated farmers is rather unelastic, ie it couldn't care less about the farmer's schooling as long as enough food is delivered in time. A diploma on the barn wall won't add value to the pig's everyday life.
A person with a diploma may be a better person in your view, but is that person necessarily a happier person?
--
Ben
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-11-11 00:50
Let's not forget, as valuable as educating ones self in getting all the degrees you can does not necessarily make you a good or better teacher, or for that matter will it make you a better player or musician. In many cases it doesn't even make you a better person, it just makes you have more degrees. Of course there are those that actually do become better at all the above when they get many degrees. Just remember, it's no guarantee but it's awfully expensive. ESP
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2010-11-11 10:58
Ronish-
Are you saying that grandpa a 100 yrs ago should` t have gone to high school or saying that Bill whose job it was to feed the pigs should not learn to read and write because he probably would never need it [...]
No, no. Education in and of itself is a very good thing for everyone to have. But there is a difference when we start to charge large amounts of money for it- at that point, knowledge becomes a privilege.
The problem I have is that the education is "sold" to young people as a way to earn more in the long run. When I was in high school, teachers most often told us that the reason for going to university was to earn more money down the road. There was some talk of our "personal betterment", but the main theme was the financial advantage.
Now, many people go into deep debt hoping that it will help them get a good job that pays off the debt AND pays more in the long run. Clearly, it is not all that simple- especially with today's economy- and many people are having trouble paying that debt now.
THAT is my problem.
[EDIT- not trying to be rude, BTW. I just feel that there is an honesty problem in the whole equation that should be addressed.]
Post Edited (2010-11-11 13:38)
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The Clarinet Pages
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