 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: suavkue
Date: 2010-11-05 15:59
Sorry for this extremely long post in advance.
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So I've had a tone problem for years. I'm currently a student in a university going for a Clarinet Performance major, and I've wrestled with the fact that I just can't a good embouchure to make the clarinet resonate its best.
I've switched mouthpieces 7 times over my 8 years of playing (Vito mouthpiece, Vandoren B45, 5RV Lyre, M13, M13 Lyre, Gennusa "Mezzo," Clark Fobes Debut), reeds many times (Rico, Rico Royal, Gonzalez Regular, Gonzalez FOF, Vandoren Traditional, Vandoren V12), and teachers (3 teachers, all of whom I stayed for less than a year with because my playing issues just could not get solved), and I've had my share of frustration over these years. I've switched embouchures usually at around 3 times a year, at least, because none of them produced satisfactory results, and there was none that sounded great. Yet, I somehow managed to make first chair every single year; that is, until I got to the university.
In the past week, I was going through another embouchure-changing cycle for the same reasons as stated above, and none of them worked - they all sounded extremely bright. My professor stated yesterday that he "didn't know what to tell me" and advised me to refer to my previous teacher (who was an excellent teacher, but that's beside the point) to help me with my double lip embouchure. (He doesn't play on a double lip; that's why he referred me.)
After the lesson, I met with another freshman (Music Ed. degree) to help her hit notes on the eefer, since this was her first time playing it (we're talking about altissimo G and A). I had never played an eefer before either, and I hit them with a little more ease thatn she did - what I noticed was that her chin was not flat/concave/however you want to describe it. So I just told her to practice keeping her chin down.
I then, for some reason, told her of my situation and asked to see her embouchure. As luck would put it, there was a mirror in the practice room that I didn't notice before was there. So I asked to see her embouchure and compared it with mine. What was the difference? My bottom lip wasn't tucked in. I've been putting the mouthpiece directly on my lip. (The lip did cover the teeth, but not as much as it was on her embouchure.)
So I asked her to listen to me play, with my original embouchure and one with the lip tucked in - the original sounded "breathy," as she put it. I asked her how the new one sounded - and she said it sounded excellent and no longer "breathy." I was surprised. I felt like this was perhaps just another embouchure change that would fail again, yet, I felt there was something different about this one. (Or at least I hoped.)
I tried it out in Orchestra and warned the other clarinetists beforehand that I was, yet again, changing my embouchure. I tried it - the blend and intonation were amazingly improved. (I recall that I always stuck out in the clarinet section with a "bright" tone. Despite that there were improvements, the only problem was that I couldn't tongue notes very well without my lip wanting to move back to its original position.) The principal clarinetist asked what I did - I told him that I just learned a few minutes ago that I was supposed to tuck my bottom lip in my mouth - and he basically said, "That would do it."
So I have two concerts, both on Saturday and Sunday, and I have a lot of practicing I have to do to have that embouchure straightened out.
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That's the end of my rant. I now have a few questions:
1) I've had a few teachers throughout my clarinet playing career - in short, they all had credentials. How could this bottom lip problem have never been noticed? (I literally asked them all during every single lesson, "How can I solve this embouchure problem?" and they gave me suggestions and went through them with me, none of which actually fully solved the problem.)
2) How many elementary school teachers actually pay attention to how their students actually play their instruments? I remember that I used to have a "speaking" embouchure, i.e. just talk as you normally would and put your mouth into it - so my chin wasn't as it was supposed to be (until I learned that from my first private teacher).
3) What does, as the principal clarinetist I mentioned put it, "tucking your [bottom] lip" in do to your sound, versus my original embouchure (putting your bottom lip directly above your teeth)?
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(Lesson learned: Take private lessons as soon as possible, and ask questions to whomever you can.)
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My current equipment:
Ridenour Lyrique 576BC, Rico Reserve 4, Ridenour Hand Finished Mouthpiece, Luyben Ligature
Post Edited (2010-11-05 16:12)
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2010-11-05 16:13
To answer your first question: We teachers do not have Xray vision to see what is actually going on in the mouth. However, given what you've described I'm surprised your teachers didn't take you back to the first steps of embouchure formation, i.e. "Put about half of the pink part of the lower lip over your teeth, rest the reed on that and then put your top teeth on the top of the mouthpiece."
Second question: Elementary _band_ teachers do not have the same goal as a private teacher does. They are looking for a way to get a good band sound, and there are times where "minor" imperfections would take too much time away from that goal. However, an elementary-level private teacher should take the time to fix this stuff.
Third question: I'm not sure about the physics of it, but the reed needs a certain amount of support and pressure from the bottom lip. That may account for the difference in tone you're experiencing, but there may be something else involved too.
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Author: Maruja
Date: 2010-11-05 17:13
What I think we should all learn from your message is that we have to be observant and analytical about our own practice. Teachers can sometimes spot where you are going wrong, but you are only with them for half an hour or an hour at most. I haven't been playing long, but just from reading these posts, I can see that what suits some players doesn't suit others. You get very different results from where you place the lip, the angle of your lips on the reed, where you put the reed on the mp and so on. I am struggling with trying to get some sort of reliability of sound (sometimes it's great, sometimes it's horrible - why?). So I am trying to analyse what I am doing each practice time and then replicating it, if I can. But self-observation seems key.
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Author: grifffinity
Date: 2010-11-05 17:47
Quote:
I've had a few teachers throughout my clarinet playing career - in short, they all had credentials. How could this bottom lip problem have never been noticed? (I literally asked them all during every single lesson, "How can I solve this embouchure problem?" and they gave me suggestions and went through them with me, none of which actually fully solved the problem.)
1.) A teacher having credentials (MM, DMA or even a full-time Orchestral position) doesn't make them a great teacher. Also, a teacher-student relationship is individual. One teaching style may work for others but not you.
From your post, it sounds like your embouchure problem was quite audible to everyone, and it does surprise me that your problem was never properly addressed. On the other hand, maybe it was, but the way it was communicated to you didn't make sense to you. One would have to be a fly on the wall in your lessons to get an objective picture as to how your situation went down.
2.) Public school teachers majored in one instrument in college...and take a course in class woodwinds, brass, percussion, etc. to learn the basics of how to teach those instruments. A short semester coursework doesn't translate into a full working knowledge of technique for all the band instruments. I was lucky to have a 4/5th grade band teacher who was a sax/clarinet player...but I've had students come to me that weren't so lucky and were puffing their cheeks, etc.
3.) The bottom lip needs to be firm enough to create a starting point for where the reed vibrates against the mouthpiece facing. If it's too soft, as in your case, the reed vibrations are severely dampened.
I am happy to hear you have found a way to address your issue on your own, but at the same time saddened that you have come this far (as a performance major no less) with such an obvious issue. If your problem is as obvious as you state, one has to questions the audition process and why your problem wasn't addressed in the first months of course work at college. We hope a teach admits us into a studio because they see raw material which they can work with...but the fact that you have gone so long without improvement is concerning.
Post Edited (2010-11-05 18:01)
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Author: suavkue
Date: 2010-11-05 17:55
@grifffinity: I am a first-semester freshman, and although I'm doing a Performance Major, I have to pass jury examinations (in about a month) to get admitted to it, so I've only been in the University for about two months.
EDIT: I'm, again, trying my new embouchure. Add some air support, and I'm extremely surprised at how well it resonates.
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My current equipment:
Ridenour Lyrique 576BC, Rico Reserve 4, Ridenour Hand Finished Mouthpiece, Luyben Ligature
Post Edited (2010-11-05 18:02)
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Author: grifffinity
Date: 2010-11-05 18:02
^ Best of luck resolving the issue before your juries. Certainly bring up your revelation in your next private lesson. I'd be interested to hear what your teacher says about your improvement!
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-11-05 19:27
suavkue -
With your "old" embouchure, did you have your entire lower lip outside your teeth? That's not good. The usual embouchure is to put half the red part of your lip over your teeth (and your lower teeth just below the point where the reed departs from the lay of the mouthpiece). This gives you a good combination of clarity, warmth and resonance.
If you then pull your lip out, so that 1/4 of the red part is over the teeth, you get more overtones, and your tone becomes brighter and carries better in an orchestra. If you roll 3/4 of the red part over your teeth, you get a less overtones and a less penetrating sound, when you're playing an accompanying part beneath another player's solo line.
However, if you have thin or thick lips, you adjust the position to discover what work for you.
Almost all players point the tip of the chin down and stretch the area between the lip and the point of the chin tight. This works for almost everyone, though Stanley Drucker bunches up his chin.
Also, if you don't play double lip, tuck your upper lip in tight against your upper teeth and support as much of the instrument as possible with it.
Finally, work on voicing the tone. Put the back of your tongue high and the front low and find the position that gives you the tone you like. It may help to think of making an "aardvark face" with everything pushed forward -- just how much is a matter for experiment.
No two people do it the same, because everyone has a separate anatomy.
At your next lesson, you might ask your teacher to alternate with you on long tones, while you find a way to match his/her sound.
Ken Shaw
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2010-11-05 21:18
As others have pointed out, it's sometimes hard for a teacher to see exactly how much lower lip is going over the teeth. I have a thick lower lip, and when I was young, I would use too much. A wise teacher had me use less, and it helped. It's nice that you were able to find the amount that worked best for you.
I switched to double lip a couple years ago, and I'm always looking for new ideas.
I found these three double lip videos from Tom Ridenour to be extremely helpful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWP22w28Jak&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FObgaNh9DQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E03zHygaXhU&feature=related
Did you get your new clarinet yet?
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Author: suavkue
Date: 2010-11-05 21:26
@DavidBlumberg: There is another issue that I was recently informed about that I cannot reveal here about that situation (basically a privacy issue, and it's not mine). But I'll say that the situation has been resolved.
@clarinetguy: I will receive the Lyrique on Wednesday, given that UPS ships it on time. What I found interesting when I was comparing embouchures with the other player was that all my lip was showing when I was using the mirror (@Ken Shaw) - and I somehow got used to playing that way. The (other) principal player mentioned to me how painful it would be if she played that way.
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My current equipment:
Ridenour Lyrique 576BC, Rico Reserve 4, Ridenour Hand Finished Mouthpiece, Luyben Ligature
Post Edited (2010-11-05 21:26)
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2010-11-07 22:16
Maybe over the Christmas break, you could try out a double lip embouchure. It made a noticable difference in my tone after 30+ years of playing single lip. You may not find it comfortable at first, but if you're willing to give it an honest shot, you might find that you like it.
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Author: suavkue
Date: 2010-11-07 23:01
@Claire: Actually, I've been playing double lip (with my bottom lip incorrectly placed) for the past 2-3 years or so. When I actually started to put the bottom lip in the correct position, I could not get myself to try single lip. It just doesn't feel natural to me to use single lip in this "correct" embouchure, so I will be staying with double lip.
An update: I used the "correct" embouchure for the band concert yesterday - note that I've only used it for about two days at this time, and that I didn't rehearse with them prior to the concert. The blend was amazing - I wasn't sticking out (at least to my ears). However, for the orchestra concert, even though the blend was great, I was afraid of squeaking in the chalumeau register (which didn't happen); otherwise, it went well. I'm going to be getting my Lyrique on Wednesday.
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My current equipment:
Ridenour Lyrique 576BC, Rico Reserve 4, Ridenour Hand Finished Mouthpiece, Luyben Ligature
Post Edited (2010-11-07 23:14)
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Author: salzo
Date: 2010-11-07 23:09
I think teaching how the embouchure should be formed, should be very general. I do not believe an embouchure of one person can be replicated by someone else. Of course there are general concepts that apply to most, but most of the embouchure formation is based on who is playing the instrument. I use a simple guage to find the correct embouchure-my ears. If my student sounds good, and can do what needs to be done, then I leave it alone. If there are problems, we start adjusting embouchure, clarinet position until the desired sound is achieved. I make general comments (relaxed pressure here, no pressure here, etc), but I do not get into the whole you need half your lip on your teeth, etc). I place great emphasis on the tone with my students- I stress to them the need to listen to themselves to know when a correction is needed. If you cant tongue clean, adjust clarinet position, embouchure etc until you can. If the tone is too bright, adjust until you get the sound you want. With all of the incredibly complex technical elements we are required to do, it is very easy to just stop listening. ANd no matter what it is we are working on, the most important element is what it sounds like. Teach students what the clarinet should sound like, and teach them to have a sound concept. Work towards the sound you are looking for, and the student will make the adjustments that are necessary according to their own physiology.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-11-08 13:20
I completely agree that teachers, especially the recent ones, could have learned from Sherlock Holmes about observing instead of just seeing. But there's another factor. As Katrina wrote,
>Second question: Elementary _band_ teachers do not have the same goal as a private teacher does. >
That's an interesting observation, when juxtaposed with two of suavkue's comments:
>>Yet, I somehow managed to make first chair every single year; that is, until I got to the university.>>
and...
>>In the past week, I was going through another embouchure-changing cycle for the same reasons as stated above, and none of them worked - they all sounded extremely bright.>>
Suavkue, you played much better than the competition at the younger levels. The band teacher probably had a lot of kids who sounded horrible and really couldn't do much about it. They weren't going to make it to the university level. At some point, they were probably going to decide to stay amateurs or they were going to quit. Those band teachers *needed* to hear you, the first chair, play with a very bright, loud tone. The teachers *wanted* you to lead your section by clearly-audible example or, if necessary, simply drown out the wannabe and never-gonna-be clarinets who squeaked and played out of tune and got lost and faked playing. The teachers *wanted* you audible to the audience despite the shrieking, bellowing, blasting young trumpets and trombones who hadn't learned how to play quietly.
And now I'm only guessing, but I suspect that private teachers back then also took into account not only how you played but where and when you played. Subtlety was not a great virtue in most of those venues. The teachers had an incentive to encourage you to develop the ability to project, loudly, with that bright tone.
Of course, when you complained that you wanted something different, then yes, they could've revised their incentive to fit the unusual circumstance of having a student such as yourself, who wasn't average, who showed real promise. They could've done better. I'll bet when you teach, you remember what happened to you and you pay more attention to your students' individual needs.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2010-11-08 15:06
If i can throw my two cents in. My lower lip is for lack of good descriptive words, is quite plump. As the other player it is painful to use a thin part of the top of my lip thus i roll my lip completely over my teeth whether single or double embouchure.
Many issues are hard to identify by teachers unless they have personal experience with it ... As somesone said ... No xray vision. Many times technique is rigidly taught and for good reason but sometimes the exceptions are needed and those are hard to identify.
==========
Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
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Author: suavkue
Date: 2010-11-08 17:29
@Lelia: I'm really starting to become interested on how much I'm starting to learn to fix in just these past... 5 days now. I found out yesterday that I've been breathing incorrectly. In my blog post (I've kept a daily journal), I mentioned:
What did I just learn? I haven’t been blowing through the clarinet properly. This is just outrageous – the amount of mistakes I’ve made on playing clarinet. I just learned that my stomach is supposed to expand while I’m breathing. The only memory I have of a similar instruction was of my then choir director in eighth grade (which was five years ago), who told me that the diaphragm expands as you breathe. I never did apply this to clarinet playing. I recall that one of my teachers (my third teacher) had solved my problem of my shoulders rising (not when I breathe – it’s just when I played, my shoulders were always up), and I did solve that problem right away, but I was (still) breathing incorrectly. When I thought of breathing before today, I was thinking, “Breathe up.” I had no idea that the stomach is supposed to expand as you breathe. How did I find out about this? Here:
“The proper clarinet air support EXERCISE. How do you know your lungs are full? Many people do not use the full capacity of their lungs. Try this breathing exercise:
Stand-up
Put your hands on your hips, now bring the hands up around your stomach, thumbs to the back and fingers toward the belly button. Grab your stomach slightly
Now, take a BIG BREATH. Fill what seems like your stomach up all the way to your thumbs. Now, blow out fast air.
While doing that exercise, try it again in front of a mirror. Make sure you are not raising your shoulders while breathing in.”
(From http://www.clarinet-now.com/clarinet-air-support.html .)
That exercise really helped me to see how I should be breathing. I’m surprised I was never told this way...
Notice the problem? I was told (constantly) that I needed more air support but I didn’t know what proper air support actually was because I was never taught what proper air support was. I really find it interesting how teachers expect you to know what they mean, yet they don’t even tell you how to approach what they want you to do.
Despite the embouchure change, I still had a "flappy" (I don't know how else to describe it) sound come out before the actual note came out. I figured out the solution yesterday, and I hope that I don't have any more bad habits that I still have to solve. I now know for a fact that a lot of clarinetists don't know what proper "air support" is - which I will be going through with the clarinetist (who I mentioned in the first post) who plays the eefer. (She does have problems with crossing the break.) I was always told to use the diaphragm, but I didn't remember how it works until I saw that website yesterday.
@salzo: No offense to you or anything, but I don't think my ears were the problem. I compose music as a hobby, and have orchestrated works for wind ensembles. My ears always heard that my tone was bad and uneven. I used to (and still do) listen to Stoltzman's recording of the Copland Concerto whenever I could. I did everything I could to try to mimic that sound. I always adjusted my embouchure (as I mentioned in my first post, I've switched embouchures usually at around 3 times a year, at least, because none of them produced satisfactory results, and there was none that sounded great). I would like to say that it's been my fault that I've had a bad sound for many years, but I always heard it and I did everything I could to fix it - I was mainly the product of poor teaching, and because of that teaching, I was given years of frustration. In other words, I have to kindly disagree with you with that embouchure should be very general.
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My current equipment:
Ridenour Lyrique 576BC, Rico Reserve 4, Ridenour Hand Finished Mouthpiece, Luyben Ligature
Post Edited (2010-11-08 17:43)
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Author: salzo
Date: 2010-11-08 18:00
Suavkue wrote:
"My ears always heard that my tone was bad and uneven. I used to (and still do) listen to Stoltzman's recording of the Copland Concerto whenever I could. I did everything I could to try to mimic that sound."
Thats funny. Most clarinetists I know try and do everything they can to NOT sound like that.
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2010-11-10 11:29
Most of the posts here seem to focus exclusively on the formation of the lips as the secret to having a good sound.
As a teacher I would say this view is a little simplistic, obviously the lip formation (as first point of contact with the reed) is important. It may be worth while to explore other ideas also.
Use the search function and check out the posts on voicing.
A check on breathing and the role of the diaphragm may also help.
There are numerous articles on equipment, mouthpieces etc..
Be aware of the subjective nature of what a "good" sound is. experiment and listen to decide what your ideal is.
We talk about having a good sound, but most musicians use a number of sounds depending on the musical context.
Chris.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2010-11-10 15:47
Regardless, the OP found that changing her lip position improved her sound. It's obvious her(?) teachers missed something with that, and probably worked on a variety of other ways to improve the sound.
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Author: suavkue
Date: 2010-11-10 22:03
@Katrina: I'm a "he."
I just got the Lyrique 576BC today along with the pro. mouthpiece - I think it's going to take some time to get used to it, since it responds differently compared to my Soloist.
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My current equipment:
Ridenour Lyrique 576BC, Rico Reserve 4, Ridenour Hand Finished Mouthpiece, Luyben Ligature
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Author: suavkue
Date: 2010-11-11 23:25
Update: I met with the professor today. He told me that he was "impressed;" at what, I'm not too sure about. He didn't say anything about my tone (like he usually did), so I'm assuming that he thinks that my sound is good now, and he also told me that my tonguing is good (which, interestingly enough, when I had the other clarinet, he told me that my tonguing was too hard - I haven't changed anything with tonguing since then). The only thing that he left me with is that I should practice slower than I am right now (fingers are fast, but there are little "slide" problems here and there, like going from middle-of-the-staff (I forget the technical term) Ab to Bb).
I also met with the principal clarinetist who told me to tuck in my lip in - he was interested in trying the Ridenour. The only complaint that he had about it was that it's not really "big" and that it's not as loud as his Buffet R13 Greenline, and he told me that I sound a lot better on the Ridenour than I did on the Leblanc. (Basically, how he put it is that he feels that the Ridenour is best suited for soloistic playing, whereas the Buffet that he has is best suited for orchestral playing.)
I have a potential buyer for the Leblanc; I just recently got it overhauled, but I'm considering sending it to Tom (that is, if they still do that repair deal where you can just send in your clarinet and they can fix it up). I've only had the Ridenour for one day, and I'm really surprised how well I've adjusted to it. The mouthpiece I got with the Ridenour is superior to my M13 Lyre, I feel. The Lyrique is definitely a keeper.
Now all I need to do is find my tuner and really practice my scales slowly.
EDIT: Some side things I want to say about the Ridenour:
1) The only problem I've actually had with it (which is quite minor, in my opinion) is that the left hand C#/G# key (that one below the third hole) is extremely close to the set of three keys used for the left pinky. I guess I just need to get it bent up.
2) I can't complain about the thumbrest - for me, actually, the thumbrest on the Lyrique feels better than the one on the Leblanc. The Ridenour Thumb Saddle doesn't work too well on it, though, so I just grabbed one of those Yamaha thumb pads, and it works perfectly.
3) The response of the Ridenour is noticeably different from the Leblanc - I can't really describe it too well. The Ridenour seems a bit more resistant, yet it responds better.
4) I actually think that the case is nice and quite sturdy - I like the fact, in comparison to the Leblanc case I have, that there are locks on the case. My Leblanc case has been prone to randomly opening with everything falling out (which one of the repairmen fixed), so I really like this case a lot more.
Again, the Ridenour is definitely a keeper for me.
(Disclaimer: I am not affiliated with Ridenour Clarinet Products in any way!)
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My current equipment:
Ridenour Lyrique 576BC, Rico Reserve 4, Ridenour Hand Finished Mouthpiece, Luyben Ligature
Post Edited (2010-11-11 23:50)
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Author: kimber
Date: 2010-11-12 12:33
After skimming the posts, I'll throw my thoughts in...from an adult new clarinet learner's perspective, and I went to UWEC decades ago as a music ed oboe major (but changed majors halfway through.)
If you can move away from the double lip as predominant embouchure, do so. I started clarinet trying to use a double lip as that is what my lips automatically do...spent four months with a teacher that never noticed but when I upgraded teachers, I was immediately switched to single lip with huge improvements in tone and 'clarinet tonguing' ease. If you feel your lower lip is weak, try taking a tiny coffee stirrer and holding in your puckered lips for longer lengths of time.
Clarinet also feels like requires more air than I'm used to...started using the 'breath builder' with excellent results as it's about both the amount and the control of the air. They are cheap and easy to order online.
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