 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: JAS
Date: 2010-10-24 19:35
Seems like a large concern on these message boards (and obviously in the world of classical music in general...)
Suggested reading: Why Classical Music Still Matters, by Lawrence Kramer.
I can't say that I'd be capable of providing a review for it; I'm only on chapter two, but check it out.
http://www.amazon.com/Why-Classical-Music-Still-Matters/dp/0520258037/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1287948989&sr=1-1
Post Edited (2010-10-24 19:36)
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Author: William
Date: 2010-10-24 20:49
When you have finished the book and learned why classical music matters, come back and let us know--although, you'll most likely be "preaching to the choir".
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Author: JAS
Date: 2010-10-25 16:50
The book is also intended for those who understand the values of music...its enlightening for both sides.
Thanks though
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-10-26 16:18
The problem is not getting those that love classical music to know it matters, it's getting the other 99.5% of the public to understand that it matters, and support it. I'd settle for 10% of the public in the USA to support it.
ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-10-26 17:16
Yep. We played a really nice orchestra concert this weekend (at least I thought it was good), and once again those of us on stage outnumbered the audience. Yawn..............
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2010-10-26 17:33
David: Is yawn what the performers were doing, or the audience, or (I suspect) both?
Ed: Why should we have to convince people that it matters? If we're doing (and I would contend that this is the case) such a piss-poor job of making music in a relevant fashion, I really don't see it as mattering. Maybe as a niche, maybe as a museum piece.
An orchestra is an incredibly financially impractical entity that exists largely to preserve the past. The fact that we have hundreds of them around, I'd say, is a pretty darn huge success.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-10-26 18:13
"Yawn" is what the 99.9% of Americans who don't give a rat's patooty about classical music do when exposed to classical music.
I don't agree that orchestras exist (or maybe I mean "should" exist) to preserve the past. I feel they exist to provide human beings with a musical experience they cannot obtain any other way -- not from recordings, not from synthesizers or electric guitars, and not via other genres of music.
Nor do I interpret the continued existence of orchestras as a "success". I believe that for the most part, orchestras exist primarily because there are so many musicians who MUST perform for their emotional/spiritual/intellectual/whatever survival, and for many of those folks, an orchestra is the most satisfying and stimulating vehicle for achieving this. So it is the musicians themselves who are keeping orchestras on life-support, much more so than the audiences who, in the final analysis, are indifferent. In my opinion...........
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2010-10-26 18:38
Never heard it put that way, that it's the musicians keeping orchestras going. Makes perfect sense, I can appreciate that.
I still don't fault the audiences for being indifferent, though. I've heard too many performances by musicians who have a really funny way of expressing how incredibly important, exciting, and vital the music is to them.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: JAS
Date: 2010-10-27 02:54
I think that the idea is for performers to develop a philosophy for general public education. Musicians who strive to develop a foundation for musical understanding and appreciation have the right idea. There's a lot of TALK about this and not much else (at least that we hear about). That's annoying.
Do we wish that there was a larger appreciation for classical music because it provides an insight into human existence that should be valued (or whatever someone might hold classical music to be) or because the fact that the lack of a larger appreciation for classical music might hurt everyone's chance of getting a job? Granted...that's valid, but musicians that value the career with not much value for the art itself should maybe see what they wanna do when they grow up. It's simply not an effective motivation. What about music that doesn't involve the clarinet? Handel, Bach, the String Quartet, Mozart's String Serenades?
Is the question why does classical music matter or why does classical music that benefits the performers career matter?
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2010-10-27 03:20
Indeed! Too often, I see classical music promoted from some angle of either "it's what I do, so you should like it" or "I like it and think it's important, therefore you should like it." Rather than seeking out ways to make the music relevant or impactful or meaningful or just give it more exposure, there's this air of "I'm going to TELL you why this is important, and I'm going to keep telling you it's important until you believe me."
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: JAS
Date: 2010-10-27 15:05
"I'd settle for 10% of the public in the USA to support it."
-Because then it would support a job? What about the other 90% that's missing out? It seems like music has become nothing but business here.
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Author: BflatNH
Date: 2010-10-27 16:50
How about reviving cartoons that use classical music sound tracks? That was my first significant exposure. (Of course, that could explain a lot....)
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Author: JAS
Date: 2010-10-27 16:57
Hearing the music and understanding/loving the music are two different things, no?
Although I can't say I don't miss Bugs Bunny's opera antics...
Post Edited (2010-10-27 16:59)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-10-27 18:25
The reason music matters is because this, just think how your life would be without it. As if the Taliban was in control and you were not allowed to listen to any type of music. Music is an art form and all types of art forms enrich peoples lives. Classical music is just one form of music but it needs public support. I'm not suggesting from taxes, but coming to concerts and making donations. The problem we have in the USA is that the first thing to cut out of the school budget is music and art in so many cities and states. The other problem we have is that there are so many other places to spend your entertainment dollars today so it is a problem and I'm not sure I see an answer. Yes, we may have hundreds of orchestras in the USA but only about 40 can be considered fully professional with a full season of concerts, not just 4 or 6 a year. This is in a country of over 300 million people with 50 states so that's not really a hugh number. My orchestra here in Baltimore is one of only 17 that have a 52 week season though we recently agreed to about a third cut in benefits and salary from our high of several years ago to stay above water. ESP
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2010-10-27 18:47
I guess the question is: why keep putting on live performances of old pieces from the Western Musical Tradition?
I'd like to answer this by example. The example is Birmingham, a city right in the middle of England, traditionally the nation's industrial heartland. In the 1980's, as we all know, traditional industry failed. Unemployment in Birmingham ran at something like 20%. The council owned some land and managed to obtain a Government grant for regeneration. They built a convention centre, to stimulate the service economy. But more importantly, they built a concert hall. Symphony Hall opened in 1991. It is not only acclaimed as the finest in the country, if not Europe, it has come to be seen as the cornerstone of the regeneration of the city.
What I mean to say is this: the Western Musical Tradition is no less than the glue that holds Western society together. That's why we have to keep doing it.
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Author: JAS
Date: 2010-10-27 20:11
My point is that more performers need to develop a philosophy that encourages that support from the public. Regional orchestras in my area do very well, and the members are extraordinarily passionate about education, both of young people and adults. This is also relatively true of the Chicago Symphony.
This seems to ME to be somewhat uncommon among most musicians. I could be wrong.
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Author: diz
Date: 2010-10-27 20:20
preaching to the choir?
In my experience the choirs are the sections of the church community that actually NEED the preaching.
Isn't the saying "preaching to the converted?"
Fascinating thread by the way ... will definitely put some thought to it
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2010-10-28 07:06
Much of the problem is that orchestras are huge and incredibly expensive undertakings. They'll never make it on ticket sales alone.
Also, we as the classical music community historically did this to ourselves. Right when swing and rock were getting a foothold in popular culture, we went very far out of our way to make everything new in our tradition unlistenable, or at least very challenging. A Mozart symphony, a Beethoven sonata, the people of the time could appreciate on a first listen. Maybe not grasp the depth of it, but find something to enjoy.
What were we doing when rock and other popular genres came along? Serialism, high modernism, etc. When the compositional community rebelled against the romantic traditions of the past, they also inadvertently shut out the "common folk" audience. The damage was done, and classical music turned from a combination of old and new, of classics and things relevant to people of today, to a museum. A museum of old things, and a museum of contemporary things, but a museum nonetheless, where terms such as "art music" abound.
And it became increasingly irrelevant to the cultural mainstream, to the point that today it's seen largely as "there was this really awesome thing once, and we should try to keep it around because it has lots of awesome bits to it, even if much of it is nostalgia." It's still here out of habit, and as a niche, and as something that everyone's been told is important, and most of them believe it, but that is so far removed from culture at large that, with all the stuff people do and the other options they have and with bands that promote themselves as something people might WANT to listen to rather than what they SHOULD listen to, they can't be assed to come to one of our concerts. And I really wouldn't expect them to.
The damage has been done, and as I see it, we need to come to terms with this reality: classical music is disconnected from relevance with our current culture. Even new pieces that reflect the world of today are presented in an institution so ingrained in the past that they may as well have been written 100 years ago. We can't rely on this institution to make a valiant comeback because it's continuously getting older. Each generation that passes is one generation further removed from Haydn symphonies.
Approaching it as a start-from-scratch-with-a-huge-base-of-awesome-material-to-draw-from angle may be a way about it. I'm not saying to pander, nor to dumb down the music, but rather to consider the musical institution as "something over there that's preserving the awesomeness of the past" rather than something that will see it on into the future.
I don't see anything wrong with preserving classical music as a museum-type entity, even one that has relevant aspects and inroads to today. It's just never going to morph itself back into the mainstream. Stand by the entrance of a classical concert and watch people walk in. Observe their attitude, their walk, their demeanor. If you didn't know where they were going and were given the following options, which would you guess: museum, church, show, party
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2010-10-28 08:05
EEBaum -
Excellent points. But approachable modern orchestral music still exists! It's called the movie score. But you rarely hear it live.
Last year I went to see Williams conducts Williams (and others) at the Boston Pops. Also went to see the LotR film at the Royal Albert Hall with live accompaniment. I have to say that in both cases, an excellent time was had by all. (I mean, how often does the conductor walk on stage, take a simple bow, turn to the orchestra and silently cue his encore... and at that first crashing major chord that everyone recognises, the place erupts in a cheer?) You could probably say it's all massively derivative... but that doesn't stop it being good listening, and a way into the music of the past. And most of the time we never notice it's there.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2010-10-28 19:39
Just stumbled across this...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/04/AR2007040401721.html
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Author: BobD
Date: 2010-10-28 21:55
The root problem is our current educational system and the general "dumbing" of America. Welcome back to the Dark Ages.
Bob Draznik
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2010-10-29 01:38
Indeed. The film score is the one successful adaptation of classical music into modern culture.
While I'm the first to blame the educational system for just about everything, I think it is only part of the problem here. Music programs may not have been as easy to cut if classical music hadn't thrown the first volley in the "go stick your head in a pig" wars.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: William
Date: 2010-10-29 16:09
Bob--I hope you are not implying it is the fault of our teachers, most of whom would chose a more robust music curriculum in their schools if more time and money were made available to their program times. The fact is, the over taxed public often rejects local referendums for such items as new buildings, building repairs or retention of staff (teachers, janitors, administrators, etc) That, coupled with the current "scare" that Asian countries are doing a better job of teaching the sciencies plus ever increasing state and national requirements for schools to meet, there is less money to go around and less public incentive to support the unified arts classes--so, they are the first to be cut back in terms of class time, curriculum and finacial support. With less class time, half the money for repair of school equipement or purchase of new music, no money for replacement of unrepairable instruments and the music teacher having to teach the same amount of students in large homogenous classes (no sectionals of private lessons), it's becoming a receipt for disaster at my old school. That's one reason why, after retirement, I have opted to volunteer some time each week just to help students who need a little something extra that the current band director just doesn't have time for.
So, Bob D, if schools are "dumbing down", it should not be implied that it is the fault of the teachers, that's all I wanted to clarify.
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Author: JAS
Date: 2010-10-29 16:47
What about band directors who become directors simply for the love of BAND rather than music? There are a lot of poor musicians teaching music...fortunately I didn't have that experience in high school.
Or whatever happened to teachers who teach because they love to teach and to learn and to see their students learn? I only had a few of those...
On top of that, there's even places in the country where competition is discouraged. The middle school that I went to has a wacko as principal...he would actually go in and change kids grades, and it was basically impossible to fail. A few kids are gonna be mighty surprised when they get to high school no? I can't believe he hasn't been kicked out yet...I'm pretty sure that's illegal.
But the point is, there are cases where our educators are at fault. Not always or even most of the time, but its happening.
Everyone has to feel good...no matter what kind of work they put into it, they're gonna get something happy and fuzzy out of it. That's half of the dumbing down of America.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-10-29 19:38
Some of that serialist music put me off, too, but maybe the classical world has reacted to rejection of atonal music by retreating into self-fulfilling prophecies. If we assume Nuke Laloosh wouldn't like Mozart, then he'll pick up on that attitude as a form of social rejection and he probably won't like Mozart because he thinks Mozart doesn't like him. (You know how we react if we're in the subway and we see somebody muttering and glaring at us. We keep our distance.) But, "Build it and they will come" seems to me to work pretty well, as long as "they" don't detect a snooty attitude of, "They're all a bunch of Philistines. They wouldn't like it or understand it anyway."
Early this Fall, "Opera in the Outfield" performances were well attended in Washington, D.C. These were Kennedy Center live opera performances simulcast into the baseball stadium, where people could wear casual clothes and eat during the opera.
I've found it easy to introduce classical music to kids in my family and among friends. All I do is play a CD without saying anything about it except, "Here's something I like a lot." I don't tell the kids they ought to like it or they'd be better people if they liked it or they're ignorant if they don't already know about it or any of that elitist crap. I just play the music. It speaks for itself. Typical reaction: a man then in his early twenties, who arrived here several years ago as a houseguest unable to pronounce the name "Tchaikovsky," went home with the beginning of a classical music collection and has been adding to it ever since.
P.S.--Go Giants!
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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The Clarinet Pages
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