 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: suavkue
Date: 2010-10-23 14:09
My professor described to me that my air tends to "spread," making my tone not as resonant as it could be. How can I solve this? I've tried the following:
1) Blowing through a straw
2) Blowing through (other) small, circular objects
3) Saying "ooh" or "oh" or "go."
None of these tricks have worked so far - is there anything else I could do?
EDIT: If it helps at all, I recently switched to double lip, but it's sturdy; however, the airflow was also like this when I was using single lip.
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My current equipment:
Ridenour Lyrique 576BC, Rico Reserve 4, Ridenour Hand Finished Mouthpiece, Luyben Ligature
Post Edited (2010-10-23 14:18)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-10-23 14:27
Usually blowing through a straw can help this problem but ONLY if you apply it when you're playing the clarinet. That is, concentrate the air into a smaller area of the mouthpiece so it's more centered. Also the way you use your air support will make a difference, using a little bit more pressure but not more volume of air. It's always possible too that you need to "firm" your embouchure a bit or use a little more resistant reed so that you have to apply a little more pressure when you're blowing the air through the mouthpiece. There's never only one simple answer. Ask your teacher to make some recommendations how to achieve what he's requesting. It's one thing to tell you there's a problem, it's another to help you find the solution. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: William
Date: 2010-10-23 15:05
Try arching the back of your tongue as if imitating a cats "hiss". This will help focus the air stream toward the tip of your mouthpiece and also accelerate it making it more efficient. Raising the back of your tongue reduces the oral cavity giving you more control of the air inside your mouth and stabalizes the breath support of your sound. Give it a try--it may take some time to get used to the concept.
btw, in giving credit where credit is due, this technique was described to me by a pretty good double lip player and master accousitician, Tom Ridenour.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2010-10-23 15:24
Sorry for the long post below. Your question struck a nerve. The eventual answers will involve sound concept, embouchure and oral shape (which you mention), reeds and breathing technique.
I heard the same criticism from my teacher in college. Although I think I've solved the problem for myself over the past 40 years, I can't give you a magic bullet solution that will work for you. I can tell you from my own experience that before you can find your own technical solution(s), you need to be able to identify for yourself both what your teacher means by a spread sound and what he/she means by a centered or focused tone quality. Without having the aural concepts in your own ears against which to judge what you are producing when you play, your attempts to change or refine your technique will be completely hit or miss with only your teacher's evaluation to tell you what works and what doesn't. The best road toward developing your own sound concept is to listen a lot and closely, not to recorded playing but to live clarinet performance by the best players you can get to hear in your area (I don't know where you live or where you're going to school).
Keep in mind that different established players sometimes disagree about what is "spread," and "centered." Your best model for the time being would be your teacher during lessons because you have the best opportunity to hear him/her close-up without either hall ambiance or recording effects to enhance anything. That depends on your teacher's willingness to demonstrate for you during lessons. I hope he/she will do that for you - you can't develop a concept of tone in a vacuum (or, rather, you may already have done that to an extent, and your teacher isn't satisfied with the result).
A few specifics to keep in mind:
1. Your reeds, more than any other part of your equipment setup, can affect tonal focus and resonance. They need to be balanced and of the correct strength for your mouthpiece. If you know how to choose and balance reeds, it makes tone issues easier to deal with.
2. What you hear from your own instrument is not what others hear. Only part of what you hear is coming from the air. The rest is coming from bone conduction. Double lip can reduce that component but it doesn't eliminate it.
3. Your eventually learning to achieve the focus your teacher is listening for will depend on your finding an approach to embouchure and oral shape that is not just "sturdy" but gives the best control of the reed.
4. How you produce the air stream ("support") has some important effects on what gets produced at the intersection of your embouchure/oral shape and the reed. You and your teacher should talk about breathing technique. There are divergent ideas about this among established players, but your teacher's approach would at least be a starting point that presumably works.
Switching to double lip was a tactic my teacher suggested to improve my tone's focus, although he didn't intend for me to make the change permanent, as I eventually did. But it took awhile for me to find a way even after I made the switch to *use* both lips to produce the sound I was looking for. You still need a clear concept, good reeds and effective support.
Good luck.
Karl
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2010-10-23 16:28
It will be interesting to see what happens when you get your new clarinet. If I'm not mistaken, isn't it coming soon?
I agree with Kdk's remarks about reeds. You say you use Vandoren Blue Box and V-12s. At your next lesson, go in with a couple of your best reeds of each type (properly balanced) and ask your professor if he notices a difference.
I've also heard it said that a slightly softer reed works better with double lip. Have you tried a 3 1/2 of either type?
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2010-10-23 18:19
> before you can find your own technical solution(s), you need to be able to identify for yourself both what your teacher means by a spread sound and what he/she means by a centered or focused tone quality
Hear, hear, kdk!
I have to say I'm not entirely sure myself what this criticism of 'spread' means. I do know that many good things come of good 'support' (of which more all over this forum). You have to blow. This takes more than just the mouth. I certainly know that I only 'got' it when I had a go at Bass.
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Author: suavkue
Date: 2010-10-23 23:34
Thanks, everyone!
I am now home for the first time in a month, and am practicing in an extremely "dry" room (versus, a concert hall, for example). I am starting to hear the faults in my tone - it's not very resonant and is "bright."
@William: My professor has already demonstrated the "hiss[ing]" aspect.
@kdk & clarinetguy: I was using 3.5s before (of the VD Traditionals), and I found that they didn't last too long for me and weren't giving me satisfactory responses. I balance all of my reeds with the ATG method a few hours before I head to my lesson every week.
@clarinetguy: Yes, I just placed in the order today; it will be arriving soon. I've wondered whether my problems have been because of either my clarinet or my embouchure or both, and I expect to have this figured by the time I try the Lyrique. I had my professor try my clarinet, and, in comparison to his professional Selmer clarinet (model # which I don't know), the sound was less "focused."
@Bassie: Basically, my air isn't focused well on one point - it's spreading, meaning that when I blow through the clarinet, the air is all over the place. (Or perhaps it may be that I'm not putting enough support in the air, but we'll have to see.)
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My current equipment:
Ridenour Lyrique 576BC, Rico Reserve 4, Ridenour Hand Finished Mouthpiece, Luyben Ligature
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2010-10-24 18:53
> when I blow through the clarinet, the air is all over the place.
Well, that description sounds like an unstable embouchure. The advice to talk it through more with your teacher stands.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2010-10-24 19:30
Bassie wrote:
>>
>>> when I blow through the clarinet, the air is all over the place.>>>
Well, that description sounds like an unstable embouchure.>>
I'd say it's meaningless.
Tony
Post Edited (2010-10-24 19:31)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-10-24 20:22
Focus for me is USING SUPPORT. That is, you need to really engage your abdominal muscles to PUSH the air out. This creates focus above all the other variables (reeds, embouchure etc). Leon Russianoff had suggested using a six by six inch piece of paper and trying to hold it against a smooth wall with just the stream of air from your mouth (much more effective at getting to the REAL meat of the problem than blowing through a straw). Keeping the paper from falling to the floor is the key.
Once you have the air focused properly, you will actually feel the clarinet resonate quite readily under your fingers.
.......................Paul Aviles
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2010-10-25 07:17
> I'd say it's meaningless.
Yeah, fair enough! I think that's what I was trying to get at, but nowhere as succinctly. The words /could/ mean almost anything at the moment.
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Author: ned
Date: 2010-10-26 09:47
''My professor described to me that my air tends to "spread," making my tone not as resonant as it could be. How can I solve this? I've tried the following:''
Do you agree with him? How does he know that your air tends to ''spread''? If you don't agree there's nothing to solve.
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''....concentrate the air into a smaller area of the mouthpiece so it's more centered.''
What's this all about? I don't think one can make air concentrate into a smaller area.......that would mean that the edges (say) of the reed are not vibrating!? Have I got this right?
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''This will help focus the air stream toward the tip of your mouthpiece......''
Toward the tip of your mouthpiece.....................where else is the air likely to go?
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''my air isn't focused well on one point - it's spreading, meaning that when I blow through the clarinet, the air is all over the place......''
I must say that this statement baffles me.
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It seems that some folks are saying you might have an embouchure problem (highly likely) - air escaping from the corners of your mouth possibly - hence the ''hiss''.
Other folks are offering some sort of perceived advice by agreeing with all of the technical mumbo-jumbo concerning air flow and resonance and focused tones and the like.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-10-26 11:32
Dear Ned,
From Australia you may be more inclined to the "British School" of thought whereby one would employ more of an "AHHHHH" configuration when you play (more "AHHHH" when you want even "darker," "rounder" sound).
For many years in the States there has been more of an effort to teach a large sound through the use of a FASTER, THINNER stream of air.
First off, the "AHHHHHH" sound is produced by getting your tongue out of the way of your mouth. To do this one's tongue actually balls up in the back of the throat and literally CUTS OFF a free flow of air (please think about this carefully.....it's at the core of what we're talking about).
Now, Robert Marcellus used to use the analogy of a particular valve on an aircraft (as an avid aviator). The opening of this valve would freeze over, not because of the high altitude temperatures but because the speed of the air through the hole was so fast, it created a lower temperature.
It was this analogy that Marcellus used to illustrate that you can create a much more solid sound with faster, more focused, cooler air than the other way around.
Of course this requires that you like the sound produced by the French/American School of clarinet playing.
.....................Paul Aviles
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Author: suavkue
Date: 2010-10-26 14:17
Thanks everyone - I have checked for air leaks; I haven't heard any. Sorry for the confusion on that one statement I made; it's hard to describe what my professor was visualizing to me. However, I think I may have solved the problem - I've never actually focused on applying pressure to make the air move faster. Compared to how I was blowing through the clarinet before, the tone is a lot more resonant. I guess we'll have to see what my professor thinks when I have the lesson with him later this week.
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My current equipment:
Ridenour Lyrique 576BC, Rico Reserve 4, Ridenour Hand Finished Mouthpiece, Luyben Ligature
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2010-10-26 18:42
With all due respect to the other posters on this topic, and without any doubt of the accuracy of their prescriptions, I'd like to add what may seem a flippant suggestion of my own:
If you're not sure what a "good" clarinet sound is and how you fall short, listen to lots of recordings. After you internalize various "good" clarinet sounds, compare yours to your ideal, and try to describe verbally ("with words") what it is you want to accomplish with your sound and where your strengths and deficiencies are. Then play as much and as often as you can with players who come as near as possible to your ideal.
All the pedantry in the world--all the hints, tricks, techniques, instruction, and exercises--won't help you *as much as* listening to and playing with superior players.
Done long enough and frequently enough, you'll unconsciously emulate them. and not only will the quality of your sound "automatically" improve, but also the quality of your musicianship.
Then, once you get the basics, but you have a problem here or there, go the tips, tricks, and exercises route.
B.
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Author: g3clrnt
Date: 2010-10-29 22:35
I have some advise that may help resolve some of the mystique behind some of the concepts in this thread. I heard all of the advise and tried hard to apply what I thought the the techniques (described above) in my playing. I went through school swearing up and down that I was doing everything right . . . I was supporting, focusing my air, tongue in a high position, embouchure picture perfect . . . but the sound still wasn't right.
I must say though when you get it right, the sensation will be as if a sail that has been dangling in the breeze suddenly catches wind, and the more you pull the line in the stronger sail becomes and the faster you go . . .
The reed will suddenly feel too soft as the air becomes supported and focused and the embouchure magically conforms into a rubberband-like shape around the mouthpiece as you try to harness this focus in the air.
Hopefully I can give you some practical tips on how to achieve this. I will refer briefly refer to Ridenour's educator's guide to the clarinet. In it, he describes air concept as one of two ways: 1) like an aerosol can and 2) like a toothpaste tube, with the aerosol can being the desired way of producing air (at least for clarinet players). This concept of compressed air is a wonderful analogy but I think the analogy could be described even further. what compresses the air? is it 'support'?
normal breathing is the answer . . . try this: breath through your mouth, it should feel very normal. In mid exhale, simply hissssss. Don't try to support, or form an embouchure or anything just exhale and feel the resistance on the tongue where the 'hisssss' sensation is. do this several times. Next, I want you to 'hisssss' while exhaling then SUDDENLY allow your tongue to return to a normal relaxed position. The air should come flying out once the resistance from the tongue goes away. If not, you are definitely constricting your throat and obstructing (or subconsciously trying to control) air flow. You must always feel the resistance at the place on your tongue where you 'hissss'. So the trick is, the air gets compressed by your tongue when it's in a high position. Obviously when there are compression systems, we must talk about tension (good tension). how do you control the compression? I want you to flex one of your biceps. while doing this I want you to notice where your tongue is when your mouth is relaxed and your teeth are together. the top back of your tongue should be in contact with your upper molars. allow your jaw to relax and mouth to open. next I want you to push 'up and out' the part of the tongue that was touching the upper molars. basically try to exaggerate what the tongue already feels like on the upper molars. I asked you to flex your bicep because the feeling of pusing 'up and out' with your tongue should feel like the way you flex your bicep. Yes it is that much effort. The tongue should be strong and firm when in the high position, otherwise when you blow unobstructed and supported air, the tongue is going to get blown out of position, it's not enough to simply hold the tongue in a high position, but it must be strong enough to compress the air that you are trying so hard to support (without constricting your throat). Now all of this is done without the mouthpiece which is very important for you internalize before trying on a real mouth piece. which is important when choosing reeds. I want you to recall the feeling of the resistance on the tongue when you are compressing the air. When the mouthpiece enters the mouth, the tongue must adjust ever so slightly to accommodate the mouthpiece. (you really can't hissss while playing no matter what anybody says). Basically the part of the tongue where you were 'hissssssing' drops down a little. The secret is the the tip of the mouthpiece/reed complex when in the mouth should be in roughly the same location in the mouth where you felt the resistance of the hisssing, and furthermore, the reed to mouthpiece relationship should have the same amount of resistance as when you were hissing.
to summarize, air = sound. if the air is diffuse the sound is as well. you focus the sound by compressing supported air with a strong high tongue. (you will notice you can control the size of the air to focus it only if you are not constricting your throat). make sure you remember what the resistance feels like without the mouthpiece so when you choose reeds, they will be appropriate to your compressed air system. when this is right, I promise your embouchure issues (if you had any) will fix themselves or you will notice a greater ease in manipulating the lips. (like tugging on the lines in my sailboat analogy) Sorry this is so long winded, I feel very strong about this because it did happen to me and this is how I described how I overcame it.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-10-30 17:09
Ok, I agree with much of g3clrnt, the exception being the mandate on high tongue position. I worry that if you are attempting to hold the tongue in a certain position with conscious muscular effort, there may be a tendency to slow down your tonging (articulation that is).
I am not a fan of doing anything special with the tongue at all. There should be nothing wrong with the sound you get if your tongue remains in an "at rest" position or what you get when you say "EEEEE."
My feeling is that you need to apply effort in all the muscles around mouthpiece and effort in your abdominal muscles, but everything else should be relaxed.
..................Paul Aviles
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