 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2010-09-12 18:48
I know Buffet has Greenline, and I know Hanson has a "reinforced grenedilla", but what about the others? Specifically the other three of the big four (Yamaha, Leblanc, Selmer)
I hope that the Composite Leblanc Bliss model will be monitored by Leblanc/Backun and not only treated as a student composite model, but also as a "test" to see how well it responds in the market. I'm not in charge of the companies, but seeing the success with the Buffet Greenlines, and also notating that they are reusing the 'waste' from wooden clarinets (mixing the shavings and sawdust with resin to create a new block to machine), it seems like a "no brainer" that the other companies would start to at LEAST experiment with it.
I believe (hope?) that the composite bliss model is also being treated as that experiment. I found it to have a VERY good tone and play very well. And there's ALWAYS a market for good horns of materials other than wood. People who play outdoors, people who play in varying temperatures/humidities, etc. etc.
A cadenza in the new composite material would be welcome by many I'm sure, as would an A clarinet in that material.
But does anyone know if Yamaha, Selmer, or Leblanc have had pro horns recently in non-wood materials? Maybe they have and I just didn't know about it. The greenlines have been out for a little while now, and I just would've thought that the others would have at least ATTEMPTED to put out some competition and not just stand-by and seemingly wait while they watch Buffet continue to corner the market on professional level, crack-proof horns.
Alexi
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-09-12 19:04
Greenlines may not crack, but they surely can snap, just like other "man-made material" clarinets.
Then there's still hard rubber which, unfortunately, doesn't go well with silver-plated keywork, which makes it a no-go in the local marketplace where the overwhelming majority of the "wooden" woodwinds (bassoons, oboes and clarinets) have silver-plated keys.
Remain the various resonite, ebonite, ABS etc instruments - these are, as you say, student gear although Yamaha proves that they aren't just lesser specimens if, yes, if some professionals could be nudged into playing them on a regular basis.
As long as everyone is on "silver on wood", not much will change; Greenlines are a market niche (our Army issues that stuff) only.
Much on clarinetistry is perception and endorsement, not scientifically hardened fact.
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-09-12 21:42
There are some Chinese factories churnong out piccolos and clarinets (and probably oboes as well) using some form of reconstituted grenadilla - has to be said it's much lower in density than Greenline and more likely to have imperfections in it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-09-12 21:52
Chris P wrote:
> reconstituted grenadilla
How would we know it's actually grenadilla and not some other kind of wood waste? (and would that matter at all?)
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-09-12 22:01
Could be burnt toast and superglue for all we know!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-09-12 22:52
In my opinion, material makes very little difference. Kal Opperman told me that the best sounding barrel he every made was of oak. However, it warped and swelled quickly and severely, so that it was usable only for a few minutes. Alex Williams played a silver Bettoney Eb in the NY Philharmonic, and Gaston Hamelin played a Bb and A ones in the Boston Symphony.
From the sublime to the ridiculous, I once put my custom mouthpiece and barrel on a plastic Vito, and no one could tell the difference. Except for the feel of the keys, even I, as the player, had trouble telling the difference.
Clarinet material and quality is irrelevant in marching bands. From personal experience at West Point, I know that even the best and loudest players are inaudible over the brass and percussion. In such situations, a Bundy is BETTER than the best wood clarinet, because it's dead easy blowing, not to mention indestructible.
For outdoor concerts in mild weather, your second-best clarinet (issued by the band if you're in the service) is perfect. Even you will have trouble hearing any difference in your own playing, let alone in the overall ensemble sound.
You sound like yourself on any well-made instrument in good condition. I've heard Ricardo Morales live, playing on a Buffet R13, a rosewood Leblanc, and a Selmer Recital with and without a Backun barrel and bell. He may have felt some difference, but for me he just sounded like himself.
You use what you like. If temperature is a factor, go Greenline or, if it works for you, the Chinese wood-pulp-and-glue.
It's not an exact science, or even science at all. If someone gave me an orange tin clarinet with purple polka dot plastic keys, but it played better than what I have now, I'd take it in a minute.
Ken Shaw
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2010-09-13 00:19
By contrast, I feel that material is of tremendous importance.
If I hadn't played Wurlitzers, perhaps I wouldn't feel this way. But hearing and feeling the wood under my fingers in a unique way compared to all the other brands made the difference.
The same is true, in my opinion, of saxophones. The difference between a Selmer Reference 54 with the Matte finish and the regular lacquer is huge, at least in my experience. (Mine is lacquer).
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2010-09-13 00:47
I'm in the material makes a difference boat also.
And Ricardo playing an R-13 didn't sound as good as Ricardo playing his Selmers (at that time he was still playing the Recitals).
Still sounded great, but not as dark. That was contrary to my preassumption. And it was in a quiet room.
Different materials CAN work well, but aren't the same. Would any of the above players have sounded better on a different material? We can only speculate
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2010-09-13 02:48
"If I hadn't played Wurlitzers, perhaps I wouldn't feel this way. But hearing and feeling the wood under my fingers in a unique way compared to all the other brands made the difference."
This is pretty much invalid. The difference in the bore of a Wurlitzer would make far, far more difference in the sound of the clarinet than the wood. This is true for any clarinet, but especially true for all of the models of Wurlitzer.
The only true comparison that could be made would be between the same model Buffets, wood vs. Greenline. At that point, I would contend that the differences between the individual clarinets would be just as great as any difference you could attribute to the material. I'm not saying there is no difference between materials, but there is no definitive evidence that that difference is significant from a pure "sound" perspective.
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2010-09-13 03:42
Not invalid at all. I've played many differently bored instruments, some of them drastically different in terms of size and style, of many different materials (including metal, rubber, rosewood, etc). I personally do not believe that other materials merely immitating the bore of a Wurlitzer would come close to the sound. The feel of the wood, and the sound of the wood itself is that unique, beyond the experience of the bore. It was this quality of woodiness beyond the feel of the bore itself that thrilled me enough to send them back to Germany for refurbishing--and it's not easy to describe if you haven't had the experience yourself. Later, I found out the Wurlitzer family firmly believes that the choice, aging, and seasoning of the wood is of great importance to the ultimate sound--to the point that they guard the family secrets. That and my own experience are good enough for me.
If it helps, I've played 'identical' model saxophones with different finishes, and they were drastically different in sound. In my opinion, the materials are of defining importance to sound quality--it is not merely a matter of tube lengths and hole distances (as though a stone clarinet would sound the same as a wooden one).
Everyone has an opinion, though--what matters is the playing, and the only way to really find out is to play them for yourself.
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-09-13 04:01
When I decided to buy a pro model tenor sax I was dead set on the Yamaha YTS-875 being a long term fan of Yamaha saxes. I had the choice of two 875s - a black lacquered and gold lacquerd one which I tried side by side to make a direct comparison and not expecting there to be any noticeable difference between the two.
But the difference in tone was incredible (and not only my own observation) - the black lacquered one was great, but sounded very small, clean and clinical compared to the gold lacquered one which can only be described as filthy, dirty, raw, big, etc. It had far more grit and texture to the overall sound and was the reason I went for the gold lacquered one.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2010-09-13 04:02
You still haven't addressed whether or not the biggest factor was the bore of the instrument. How can you possibly just "know" that it was the wood and not the bore? The bore of an instrument is the single most important factor in how a clarinet plays. That's just a fact. The Wurlitzers are so different from other instruments that I wouldn't be surprised if that was a huge factor in feel and sound.
I have no doubt that the wood they select is of the highest quality. The question is whether or not it is that wood that gives them such a unique sound. I suspect the family would say otherwise. It is, after all, selling short a long-admired design.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-09-13 07:03
>> If it helps, I've played 'identical' model saxophones with different finishes, and they were drastically different in sound. <<
But as J. J. wrote no one can say it was the finish that caused the difference and same with the clarinets. No one can "know" there is a difference unless trying two identical instruments from different materials, or different finishes, and KNOWING they are otherwise identical. Having the model name written on them doesn't make them identical.
e.g. The Selmer Paris SA80 SII is one the most popular alto saxophones here, almost always with the regular lacquer finish. This is also one of my favorite alto saxophone models. From ones I've tried (all with same finish) they varied between great to... not so great. All had a good setup, not leaking. Same model, same finish, yet they play differently. The differences were actually much more significant than some same models with different finish instruments I've tried.
Before studying acoustics and doing a lot more objective comparisons, I used to have a similar opinion to that of MarlboroughMan.
Post Edited (2010-09-13 07:55)
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2010-09-13 09:14
I personally do not believe that other materials merely immitating the bore of a Wurlitzer would come close to the sound.
The question is not about what you "believe" "would" be the same or different. The questions is about if we can prove it one way or another.
Even if you push aside the aspect of the very very good wood and metal that Wuriltzers are made from, the Wurlitzer bore and mouthpiece is different than other makers.
There have not been many real studies into this subject and the costs of creating a scientific test would be very high. One would need hundreds of each material to have reliable statistics.
However, as I have read, in the brass world, there is a pretty good consensus that the plating/finish/material makes a difference in the sound.
Post Edited (2010-09-13 09:56)
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2010-09-13 10:59
LOL! The question is emphatically NOT what I can "prove"! That might be YOUR question, but it is hardly mine, nor was it a condition of the OP (from which we are now quite far). I'm not sharing research data here, gents, but an opinion: an experience and a subjective interpretation of that experience.
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2010-09-13 11:43
*sigh*
Please don't put words in my mouth or imply things that I never would, J.J. I never said the bore wasn't of central importance, nor that it was the wood alone which made Wurlitzers sound the way they do. I merely expressed an opinion that the wood matters, tremendously.
This IS an opinion held by the family, as expressed here:
http://wurlitzerclarinetsamerica.com/learn/faqs.html
[Disclaimer/Guarantee: I work for Wurlitzer Clarinets America]
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2010-09-13 11:55
Chris,
I had a similar experience with Yamaha soprano saxes--though maybe there were black lacquer Selmers in that mix too-- and ended up buying the regular lacquer as well. Likewise with the new Selmer Reference 54 Tenors--the Matte finished ones were far less outspoken--really muffled sound compared to the lacquered one I bought, which has the big booming brashness I was looking for.
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
Post Edited (2010-09-13 12:18)
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2010-09-13 12:27
All opinions are subject to scrutiny on an online forum. It's perfectly acceptable to ask for a little more justification than simply stating that you know something is true.
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2010-09-13 12:37
No harm done, J.J. I'm all for probing questions and heathy argument. But none of my posts were written from the dogmatic perspective you suggest. All were clearly qualified as opinions. To imply otherwise is innaccurate, and merely results in derailed conversation.
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-09-13 13:44
Ken Shaw wrote,
>>If someone gave me an orange tin clarinet with purple polka dot plastic keys, but it played better than what I have now, I'd take it in a minute.
>>
Better you than me. ;-)
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2010-09-13 14:40
Some years ago, I had my beloved Selmer MK VI alto overhauled and 18 Karat gold plated. Neither my colleagues or I could not hear any difference in the sound. It played great before and after the treatment. But it sure looks terrific!! As a repairman, I play many different clarinets and saxes every week, using my own mouthpiece. Some plastic clarinets sound excellent, many wood clarinets sound lousy. Some of the metal clarinets can sound quite good and hard to tell from the sound that they are made of metal. I am inclined to believe that it's the dimensions rather than material that make the difference in sound quality. Much extra effort in finishing the bore and tone holes is put into a good wood clarinet that a plastic instrument does not receive- methinks this is where the difference in tone and overall playing feel really come from.
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Author: kilo
Date: 2010-09-13 21:02
We have a lot of anecdotal accounts here but what we're missing is a formal scientific experiment with double blinds and replication in independent laboratories. Hard to see how a vibrating column of air would be affected by a few ten thousandths of an inch of plating in a sax or why a well-finished composite with identical tooling to a grenadilla clarinet would have a different tone, all else being equal. There are just too many variables at play to accept anyone's opinion as authoritative. I know that many people feel strongly about these issues and, lacking the necessary data, I wouldn't accuse anyone of being "wrong" — but I remain somewhat skeptical, awaiting definitive proof either way.
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2010-09-13 22:26
This article by Steven Fox explores the issue of the effect of body material really well:
http://www.sfoxclarinets.com/body%20material.html
Chris.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-09-15 01:36
Lelia -
My #2 B natural clarinet is made of orange corrugated tin with red Gummi-Worm keys. The bell looks like a Chinese dragon and shoots fire like that trombone. It's lethal at 100 yards, and nobody has ever dared to criticize my playing on it. The only problem is that my eyebrows keep getting singed off.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2010-09-15 06:26
Although I haven't played the Buffet Toska Green line I've heard from several symphony players that they are really great. I didn't ask about the "A" clarinets, just the Bb horns.
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Author: RJShaw0
Date: 2010-09-15 08:13
>Although I haven't played the Buffet Toska Green line I've heard from several symphony players that they are really great. I didn't ask about the "A" clarinets, just the Bb horns.
When I bought my Tosca, I tried a greenline. I found it a lot easier to blow than the wood, and the tone was a bit too thin and bright,so I chose the wood. And temperature isn't an issue here.
Of course all clarinets are different though, so other greenline will be different, maybe even better.
The greenline did weigh more though I think, but looked fairly similar to the wood.
RJS
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Author: Pete
Date: 2010-10-03 20:19
On the finest wood bassoons, you play into a metal bocal, then the bore is lined all the way to the boot where you have a brass U tube. Many of the tone holes are also lined. All the wood does is hold on the keys. Yet we insist that wood bassoons are better than plastic instruments. Perhaps it's just better workmanship?
Emerson Musical Instrument Repair
North East Wisconsin Band Instrument Co.
ToneLure Tone Enhancement
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