 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: mw
Date: 2000-12-30 13:32
This, I think, is worth discussing. Please lets not get back on the "OTHER" deal (where the insurance company was utlimately in the driver's seat)
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1401526960
Lets discuss this. If stolen, the clarinet appears to have never been recovered. This clarinet has the serial numbers filed off. We don't know if the clarinet was insured, if stolen.
BUT, IMO, this is a clarinet you should never buy. In fact, by buying it, its possible that you might be receiving stolen property. Although, that quite hypothetical.
CAVEAT EMPTOR & a Happy New Year, too!
mw
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-12-30 15:12
Difficult to say. The Symphonie 3 model was made in the late 1950s to early 1960s. There is no way to tell when the serial number was eliminated. It could have happened weeks ago or decades ago. It's definitely not as new as the seller thinks it might be.
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Author: mw
Date: 2000-12-30 17:56
It seems to me that the instrument's serial numbers were filed off for a reason. This was a "means" to somebody's end. I have no idea about when this event took place with respect to this clarinet. However, I would NOT BUY this instrument. If it was stolen & fell within the staute of limitations for a (theft) crime, its possible that the buyer could be involved with the receiving of stolen property. mw
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Author: ron b
Date: 2000-12-30 18:03
Dee's probably correct. Looks like a horn that's been around for awhile. You'd really have to have a first hand look or at least better pix that those offered in the ad. Is the bell plastic? kinda looks like it...
Well, for seven hundred dollars, there are better bargains out there. Probably better bargains at your local music store.
I'd be more concerned that the numbers are obliterated because the top and bottom sections don't match. There's no way to tell from the info given.
ron b
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-12-30 18:22
Actually on almost all used merchandise you run a risk of it being stolen no matter how or where you buy it. Newspapers don't check out their advertisers. Music stores don't normally check used instruments they receive in trade or to sell on commision to see if they are stolen. Pawn shops don't check them out either unless they have been notified to do so by law enforcement personnel. While the filed serial number is certainly suspicious ron does make a good point. It may be to hide a mismatch in serial numbers. This could have been done over 30 years ago.
I've sent the seller a very polite query asking how he obtained it and also pointed out the instrument's probable age. Let's see if he responds. At least to date, his description is at least forthright and he doesn't seem to be hiding anything.
While the price is high for an auction (especially as a min starting bid), if you buy a used clarinet of this age and quality from a music store, it would probably go higher.
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Author: mw
Date: 2000-12-30 18:57
Ron, doesn't the seller's statement that the clarinet may (in fact) be stolen property, bother you a little bit? If we could examine this clarinet in person & found the clarinet played perfectly in tune, thus alleviating concerns of a mismatched instrument due to different serial numbers on the upper & lower joint, I would still have a problem with the possibility that the clarinet might be stolen property, had never been properly recovered, etc.
YES, I certainly agree that the of filing off of the serial number may be for a completely different reason than theft; we'll never know definitively.
Asking the seller on eBay will not offer any substantive proof. The seller could say anything he wants. OK, so you hear a plausible story or explanation from the seller. Does that mean it is true?
Which takes us back to the same question, and my same answer.
Ron & Dee, it sounds to me like you might be advocating possible purchase of an instrument like this, eg. in a similar scenario, etc. Is that correct or did I "hear" each of you wrong?
To me, the "mights" & "ifs" tell me to stay away, even if I found a discounted price to be extremely attractive. Where am i missing the point? Thanks.
mw
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-12-30 19:20
No I do not advocate purchase of stolen or possibly stolen merchandise. I simply would not want such a fine instrument to now end up in a dumpster because the current owner can not sell it. It perhaps may actually have been recovered (if stolen) and now been through many owners. It's history may no longer be traceable. There's no national registry of clarinet serial numbers or licensing or anything else that would provide such a trail. This instrument is over 30 years old now.
If one part was replaced, that doesn't mean it will be automatically out of tune. If it was replaced with one of the same model, it might play quite well in tune. If it at any later time it went through the hands of a good tech, tuning problems could have been eliminated.
If you truly wish to insure that you don't buy possibly stolen merchandise, don't ever buy anything used (except automobiles or houses) from anybody or any place. There's almost never any way to check the history. Even if the owner says he bought it new, aren't you relying on an unverifiable but plausible story.
In other words, I'm saying a person should be cautious, should check things out to the best of their ability but not get paranoid.
Let's assume for the moment that this seller is honest. What is he supposed to do? He has no idea when the serial number was removed. He could turn it in to the police but in this case that accomplishes nothing. The police won't be able to trace it so guess what? They sell it at an auction. It could pop right back up on eBay and there we go again.
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Author: Fred
Date: 2000-12-30 23:54
Sorry, Dee. You can't buy a house either. All real estate (land) in this country was "redistributed" upon colonization and westward expansion.
Gets more complicated . . . doesn't it.
P.S. - This is a VERY difficult issue - perhaps settled on a case-by-case basis.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-12-31 00:23
Fred wrote:
>
> Sorry, Dee. You can't buy a house either. All real
> estate (land) in this country was "redistributed" upon
> colonization and westward expansion.
>
> Gets more complicated . . . doesn't it.
>
> P.S. - This is a VERY difficult issue - perhaps settled on a
> case-by-case basis.
This is an entirely different philosophical/historical/political issue than the general purchase of used merchandise. I was merely trying to make a point that any used merchandise could conceivable have been stolen.
Besides if you go back far enough in history in ANY country, even European ones, you will find that land was frequently redistributed due to migrations, colonizations, wars, etc. It was not unique to this country but just more recent. However, let's not risk getting into potential political issues like this on the clarinet list. I don't mind a good debate of course but this is not the place.
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Author: mw
Date: 2000-12-31 02:04
Dee, this is what jumps out to me:
1. It matters NOT how nice the clarinet is.
2. It matters not how old it is. Things are stolen when new, slightly used, or when old. The age of the clarinet has nothing to do with how old it might be.
3. A Clarinet which is stolen property is no different than anything else stolen
4. The person selling the clarinet tells us it may have been stolen at some time in the past. I appreciate the warning, and it tells *me* to stay away.
5. There is "no taint" of used merchandise; anything is possible in this world. It is when we are WARNED of possibilities by a seller that a problem is presented. Warnings come for a reason.
6. There is no way of telling that the seller here is honest or dishonest, & we'll never know that. Such an understanding is totally subjective. In fact, my focus is NOT on the seller at all. It was/is strictly with the clarinet. I see no way to obtain solace from the seller on the "might be stolen property" issue.
7. It is possible that when buying used goods, that an individual would buy stolen property. It happens. The solution is to give the property in question to the rightful owner or to the police/authorities. Try & do whats right.
Dee said:
"If one part was replaced, that doesn't mean it will be automatically out of tune. If it was replaced with one of the same model, it might play quite well in tune. If it at any later time it went through the hands of a good tech, tuning problems could have been eliminated."
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I don't know if your response was directed to me. If so, that totally misses my point. Go back and read what I wrote, which was:
"I would still have a problem with the possibility that the clarinet might be stolen property, had never been properly recovered, etc"
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Author: ron b
Date: 2000-12-31 02:22
mw -
Please, don't think for a moment that none of this bothers me. I meant to point out that the serial number tampering would raise a red flag - whatever the 'reason'; a stolen horn, a mismatch - whatever. Any or all of those things, were I considering buying an instrument, would immediately raise suspicions. The fact that the seller says this one 'might' be stolen would stop any further discussion. I wouldn't touch it.
I was in a situation like that many eons ago - guy sells a horn cheap, I have an inkling something's not quite right but... well, okay, I can fix it up and make a profit. While I'm at work (in a repair shop of all things ! ) the guy's mom, accompanied by the local sheriff, comes to my house, recovers the horn from my closet, the mom pays my wife the amount I'd paid for the horn. Fortunately for me, I hadn't had time to get to it yet. The horn, I presume, got returned to its owner in an effort to keep the guy out of jail. I never heard the final outcome, I was lucky to get my few bucks back. From then on, if anyone or anything even hinted that something wasn't right, I'd have nothing to do with it - no matter how good a deal it might appear to be.
No, no. This does bother me - the fact that the seller KNOWS something could be wrong and goes ahead with it anyway - doesn't even pretend to deceive. And, doesn't seem to give a hoot - in front of a worldwide audience. It's a sad state we're in . . . I *am* bothered by this.
ron b
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Author: Fred
Date: 2000-12-31 02:34
Dee, I fully agree with you. My post, plus the postscript, were meant to be interpretted thusly:
If you pursue a transaction far enough back, the problems you uncover, if addressed, will penalize many innocent people for the sake of a wrong long forgotten. Sometimes the wrong is not forgotten by an individual, but it is forgotten by the system we have set in place to right wrongs. That's why I said each transaction might need to be addressed on its own merits.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-12-31 03:16
Fred,
Well said and thank you for the clarification.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-12-31 04:34
mw,
There is only one solution that will satisfy your requirements. All items with histories that can't be verified should be destroyed. That way they can't get back into circulation. This 30+ year old horn might very well have been returned to its rightful owner decades ago (assuming that it had been stolen at some time and I do agree that really is the most logical conclusion) and been sold legitimately many times since. Neither of us can ever know. Thus it should simply be destroyed so that questions like this need never arise. Turning it into the police would not work in this case as they would not be able to trace it. They would simply sell it at auction and it would go right back into circulation. Perhaps you should lobby to have states pass laws requiring that the police be required to destroy any items for which they cannot find the rightful owner. What a waste but it does solve the problem.
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2000-12-31 12:47
When buying an instrument from an individual I always make sure (unless I know the party):
1) I get their drivers license number
2) I get a thumb print (yeah, I know..but it is a deterent) on the bill of sale.
3) If it is from a person 18-21 years of age I ask to call the parent for approval.
You would be surprised by the number of young people who play in band/orchestra and then when they get out high school or in college and need a few bucksThey want to sell the instrument that MOM or DAD spent big bucks to buy for them. I recently had a young lady want to sell her R-13 to me. I knew the child. I also knew that dad, who bought the clarinet, would not approve. He is a dentist and also plays clarinet in a couple of the community bands around. Boy, was he hot when I phoned him and told him what daughter was up to!
I also been involved in a couple of property hearings. They are no fun. Several years ago I had some horns stolen and found them in a pawn shop. I got them back and the police got the young man who fenced them. The pawn shop owner got a chewing out from the judge and was minus some instruments.
John
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-12-31 12:57
jbutler, very sensible approach. It would tend to "scare off" anyone attempting to sell questionable merchandise and provides you with some degree of protection.
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Author: mw
Date: 2000-12-31 18:34
Dee said:
"There is only one solution that will satisfy your requirements. All items with histories that can't be verified should be destroyed."
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No, thats not right & that not what I said. My solution is NOT to buy the horn if I have an inkling or feel there is a possibility it is stolen. Period.
"This 30+ year old horn might very well have been returned to its rightful owner decades ago (assuming that it had been stolen at some time and I do agree that really is the most logical conclusion) and been sold legitimately many times since."
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Again, as I stated earlier.... ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE. However, this conjecture and "what is" don't take us away from the primary problem. We have a horn with serial numbers filed off NOT in its original case.
"Neither of us can ever know."
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I said that many times earlier.
"Thus it should simply be destroyed so that questions like this need never arise."
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How can it be destroyed? It belongs to the seller or whoever buys it at eBay auction. This borders on the ridiculous.
"Turning it into the police would not work in this case as they would not be able to trace it. They would simply sell it at auction and it would go right back into circulation."
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If this is directed it to me, it has been twisted a bit. I did not say take it to the police. Go back & re-read. Here is what I said '... "It is possible that when buying used goods, that an individual would buy stolen property. It happens. The solution is to give the property in question to the rightful owner or to the police/authorities. Try & do whats right." If one finds out that they have come into possession of stolen property they should either look to rescind the transaction or turn the property over to authorities, etc.
I don't care if it ends up in a police auction. This is a situation of right from wrong. Just as I teach my children. If you have stoeln property you shouldn't keep it!
"Perhaps you should lobby to have states pass laws requiring that the police be required to destroy any items for which they cannot find the rightful owner. What a waste but it does solve the problem."
-------------------------------
Oh my. I don't have any problem with our present laws. Do you?
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Author: mw
Date: 2000-12-31 18:50
Ron B:
I knew you were *not* advocating purchase of would-be/could be stolen property. And, of course you were correct whn you stated that the filing off of a serial number does not connote only 1 possibility.
My concern here was that any younger musicians, etc. listening might get the idea that its OK to buy would-be/could-be stolen property. It really doesn't matter to me how many times a clarinet may have changed hands after it was stoeln. To me, nothing can cleanse the clarinet's status.
My advice, now as before, it that it is best to just stay away from the transaction, no matter how nice, how old, etc. the subject property is.
JB:
All excellent ideas!
I checked yesterday with a local horn buyer & the area's best repairman. The buyer was very negative about buying this horn. The repairman was openly negative about accepting the horn for repair. He stated that we would need to know more about the horn's past. I didn't preempt either with my feelings.
Thanks all & Happy New Year.
mw
PS - A would be/could be we never discussed was that the clarinet may have been stolen at some time while outside its case. Thus, the Artley case. Of course, its also possible that the old case wore out, too.
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Author: Cass
Date: 2000-12-31 21:22
I know I wouldn't touch that deal with a pool cue no matter what the dealer says. Anything (clarinet or anything else) with the serial number filed off, forget about it. Nothing down that road but trouble. Then if you go to re-sell it, the next guy looks at it and says forget about it. Who needs it? I don't have to be worrying about what that filed off serial number *might* mean, when I *know* I can get a clarinet any day that has all the right markings and none of this suspicion around it. I'd rather pay more for the peace of mind.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-12-31 22:03
It actually used to be standard practice for police departments to destroy stolen and unclaimed property. Then they and the legislatures decided to make some money of it by selling it. Makes you wonder if conflict of interest might cause them to be less than diligent about finding the rightful owners.
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2001-01-03 00:11
There’s a built-in conflict here, and no easy answer. Nobody wants to encourage theft, and anything that makes it profitable should be discouraged. Carrying this to its logical limits, all property shown to be stolen, yet unclaimed by its owner, should be destroyed, to take the profit out of theft. That would be true even in this case, where the serial number has been removed, making it impossible for the true owner to identify the instrument.
On the other hand, the incentive to destroy the instrument, and the efficacy of doing so to prevent theft, is rather attenuated at this point, and it does seem useless to destroy what is probably an excellent instrument, particularly when it’s at least possible (though I think doubtful) that an innocent explanation exists.
When the police come into possession of stolen property, they are required by law (at least in New York) to check the serial number against stolen property reports. (See the saga of David Hattner’s bass clarinet.) Once they do so, or if, as in this case, the serial number has been removed and the instrument is not otherwise identifiable, the police (who got the item by having it turned in to them, without cost, and innocently) may properly conduct an auction that cuts off the rights of the original owner.
I’m not sure about pawnbrokers, but I suspect that if they do the routine checking, they’re protected at least from criminal liability, though it’s likely that the rightful owner can get the item back by paying off the loan.
A seller on eBay has no protection at all, even with disclaimers. On the other hand, it’s to say the least unlikely that the original owner of this instrument will be able to prove ownership without a serial number. If anyone can stomach the possibility of buying stolen property, you may get a good buy at small risk.
That said, I wouldn’t touch the thing with an 11-foot pole. If I want a Leblanc, there are plenty of them on eBay without any trace of theft.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Cass
Date: 2001-01-03 14:31
Ken, you said exactly what I meant. Another thing to think about is how it would feel in band if someone asked to try each other's instruments. We do that all the time. If someone's looking at my clarinet and seeing where a serial number was filed off, they would wonder if I stole it or bought stolen goods. I could explain until I'm blue in the face and it would still look bad. They would still wonder about me. What about taking it to a repairman? Same deal, he's looking at me and thinking "I wonder if this guy is a thief?" Put it another way, I think my reputation is worth more than the price of that used clarinet.
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2001-01-03 19:01
And if no one will touch a clarinet with the serial numbers filed off, there will be no market for them. Eventually, someone will learn that filing them off makes the instrument worthless and won't do it. But if they are afraid to try to sell a stolen one with the serial number still on it, they will decide that stealing clarinets is not a good idea and will stop doing it.
Conversely, buying a suspicious clarinet may be encouraging someone to go out and steal another. It may be yours next time. And, even if it isn't yours, it will cause your insurance rates to go up.
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