 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2010-09-19 23:22
Back in the 60's and 70's lots of the symphony players used the 1960's Buffet clarinets. Can anyone compare these old horns to the new horns? I've heard such great recordings on these older horns, but the same goes for the new models. Recently I looked up Buffet and they are now carrying the old vintage style horns, so needless to say this has sparked an interest why Buffet would bring back old models. I know there are some players around that played the 1960's horns and now play the new Buffet's. Do the newer models, called the Vintage, sound like the older great vintage horns?
thanks, Bob
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2010-09-21 06:03)
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Author: Pappy
Date: 2010-09-20 01:07
My R-13 was made in 1964 and I have owned it since 1969. In the past year I have had the opportunity to play a few brand new R-13s. I must say that I was pleased and impressed with them on all counts. However, in the long run I preferred my own "vintage" Buffet. I suspect, though, that it is only the familiarity of my "own" horn rather than anything mystical. I know of "problems" with the wood - a greater tendency to crack - etc. in modern R-13s, but I only know of these second hand - from friends who own and play them. My own experience was that should something every happen to my own R-13, i would not hesitate to own a new one. I was not overly impressed with the Tosca - but did very much like the RC Prestige.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2010-09-20 01:15
I haven't tried too many newer R13s but I do play a 1969 R13 which I acquired in 1983. Like Pappy, my guess is that my familiarity with this clarinet causes most others to compare less favorably. I have tried the new Leblanc Bliss clarinet and actually like it nearly as much as my 41 year old R13.
If I had a ton of money, I'd probably get my R13 refurbed every year and perhaps buy another barrel so I can play with my high-pitched accordionist (444), instead of buying newer shiny horns.
My A clarinet (also R13) is from 1985 and I am its only owner, but do not like its response nearly as well as that of my Bb.
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Author: tonyl
Date: 2010-09-20 01:22
I certainly enjoy my R-13 Vintage. New clarinet patterned after an old model.
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Author: AJN
Date: 2010-09-20 01:32
My R-13 was made in 1962 and bought new for me by my parents when I was in high school. I can't say I've played a LOT of newer instruments, but the number is considerably more than zero, and I've yet to play one that I liked as well as mine.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2010-09-20 04:05
Thanks everyone for your inputs. One of my past instructors, Iggie Gennusa, had a 1960's A clarinet that sounded really great. I was lucky to play it a few times, but that was back in the mid 1970's. It looks from all of the responses that these were very good horns, as well as the new vintage style models. Seems like time really hasn't changed over the years. I'm glad these older horns still play great as well as the new horns. To me this seems to be a remarkable testimonial of Buffet's heritage.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2010-09-21 06:11)
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Author: William
Date: 2010-09-20 15:03
It was considered "difficult" to find a "good" R13 back in the 1960's, much the same as it is now. There were the "top drawer" variety of Buffets and then all the rest. I like the Bb I purchased in 1964 and still play it. However, the A that I purchased a year later was never really that great a match for my Bb, having much different resistance over-all and tuning issues in the upper register that could not be easily dealt with. The good news is--for me, that is--two years ago, I was lucky to find a R13A, also made in the 1960's, that was very comparable to my great Bb and I now have a pretty closely matched set of Buffet clarinets that I enjoy playing.
Best advice I have--try before you buy and if the clarinet plays well FOR YOU, buy it. Ideally, there should be little difference in resistance and tuning in comparison to your Bb. From all that I've heard, the biggest difference between the legendary 1960's and recent "vintage" Buffets is in the quality of their wood--old wood being better than new wood. Wheither that is really true or not is for history to decide. Who knows, in the 2050's, perhaps everyone will be longing for the good old 2011 Buffet clarinets--guess we'll just have to stick around to find out. I'll be 110, but if my G.A.S. holds out, maybe I'll just have to buy a set.........LOL
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Author: golfnclarinet
Date: 2010-09-20 23:14
My R13 is 1971. I picked this horn over 1998 Buffet RC 6 years ago.
Means, RC was 6 years old when I compared those two.
When I compare my R13 with my son's Leblanc Opus(2003), I'm talking about tone here, it's hard to pick a winner.
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Author: djphay
Date: 2010-09-21 23:01
As I understand it (as a person who doesn't play on Buffets) the difference between the R13 now and in the 50s and 60s relates:
(i) to quality of the wood, in that back then the R13 was the best model Buffet made and so the best quality wood whereas now Buffet's 'top' models are the Prestiges and Tosca and the R13 now sits somewhere below that (old R13s had unstained wood unlike now); and
(ii) the dimensions of the bores apparently have changed over time between vintage R13s and more modern versions. Apparently whilst the reamers and cutters used to cut the bores are the same, the cutters have altered or warped over time and the bores are now different between 1960s R13s and their modern counterparts. The new Vintage bore is therefore slightly different from current R13s as it replicates the 1950s and 60s dimensions and is essentially a Prestige instrument so far as wood quality is concerned.
I tried lots of Buffets at Howarth's earlier this year when buying new clarinets: R13s, RCs, R13 & RC Prestiges and Vintages. My preferred pair was a pair of Vintages that had a great sound I can only describe as dark and chocolately. The A was also very nice to play. The response was a little different from the R13s and Prestiges, but difficult to describe. However ultimately I bought something else! :D
David
Rank amateur
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2010-09-22 00:55
I'm not sure what was done to the Buffet "Vintage" model to make it more like those of old, but the two that I've tried were very good. One was a demo model at a clarinet gathering, the other was the personal horn of a friend. 2 is a small sampling, but at the very least, it proves that good ones exist. Seemed very even and pretty easy playing.
Alexi
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Author: TianL
Date: 2010-09-22 06:47
i play on a 1971 R13. i personally only have played about five R13s (1971, 1975, 1980s, 2005 and something else i don't remember). the best two are the 1971 and 1975.
my teacher though, has tried countless numbers of R13s and other top of the line Buffets throughout his career and also many of them when helping his students to pick clarinets. he has a R13 from the 80s that he said is better than all the R13s he has tried (which are mostly newer ones like the 2000s). When he played mine, he was shocked and said mine is at least as good as his.
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Author: William
Date: 2010-09-22 14:44
Golf wrote, "When I compare my R13 with my son's Leblanc Opus(2003), I'm talking about tone here, it's hard to pick a winner."
That is, indeed, a hard choice to make. I played a set of Concerto clarinets for about ten years and was always pleased with the quality of sound and tuning--especially the A. However, I can to realize that I was more able to project more effectively in larger ensembles and play with more musical flexability in terms of dynamics, with my set of vintage Buffets from the 1960's. For tone quality, my Leblancs and Buffets are very close and play with a tambre that I like. It's just that with the Buffets, I seem to be able to play with more "authority" when necessary--meaning, solos. As far as ensemble blend, my Buffets allow me to "disappear" within the texture as effectively as I could with the Leblancs.
Leblanc Concerto/Opus vs Buffet R13?? Tone quality--toss up. Tuning--Leblancs. Musical flexability & tonal projection--Buffet.
1960's R13s vs new "vintage" R13s?? They probably are accoustical equals, however, I would pick the true '60s instruments because--"back then"--they were the premier Buffet line of clarinets and may have been more carefully constructed--but were definately made from the best wood then available. Can'ts say that, for sure, about the current "vintage" R13s.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2010-09-22 15:48
Comparing 1960's era Buffet R13's with today's current production R13 is like putting apples against oranges. They are two very different animals, not only from a design standpoint but from a material useage as well.
As has been correctly stated before, the R13's from the 1960's were Buffet's top of the line clarinet, made with (supposedly) the best wood available and the most hand finishing done by the most experienced craftsmen
Today's R13's are no longer the top of the line Buffet clarinet and Buffet is even up front in saying that their more expensive models use their more desireable bilets of wood.
I've tried and selected many new R13 instruments for students. For the most part, the quality has been good, but the majority of them play tight, with a small focused sound and not as flexible as models from decades ago. They would not be something I would personally buy.
...GBK
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2010-09-24 11:56
Looks like I'll try to play the old vintage horns.
Thank you everyone for taking the time to educate me regarding the different lines of clarinet models.
I'll keep all of you posted regarding what I wind up with.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2010-09-24 12:29
While there is some truth that there may be some special qualities of the older instruments (maybe some of it due to aging?) There are good instruments from the 60's as well as some dogs. It is important to take it on a instrument by instrument basis. I recall years ago people went through 20 instruments to find a "good" one, yet today many think that any instrument from that era is special.
I have played some recent instruments that were quite good. I think the most important issue is to find what is the right instrument for your tastes and your set up.
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2010-09-25 13:55
Interesting comments!
I have an early 70s R-13. It's not a bad instrument, but there are much better ones out there. I agree with Katrina about the Bliss. I tried the all-wood model, and I think it plays as well as or better than my current horn.
I helped someone pick a Buffet clarinet a few years ago, and the selection was a newer Festival model. This was quite a nice instrument, much better than my R-13.
As others have pointed out, the R-13 was once Buffet's top of the line instrument. At one time, I think it was the E-13 that was Buffet's no. 2. I remember helping a friend select one of these instruments in the late 70s, and to be honest, it didn't seem to be any different from my R-13.
A few years ago, I had a nice chat with a Buffet rep. I asked him what really distinguished an R-13 from an E-13 or some of Buffet's slightly less expensive models. He couldn't give me an answer. As others have pointed out, I think much of the difference is in the quality of the wood. As GBK points out, Buffet admits that "their more expensive models use their more desirable billets of wood." I wonder if there is a difference between the wood in today's R-13s and the wood in older Evettes and E-13s.
Post Edited (2010-09-25 13:59)
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2010-09-25 18:37
There is no mystery about the vintage Buffet R-13s from 1960s-1980s. Top professional players choose them for one reason. That is "The Sound".
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2010-09-26 08:34
Thank you everyone for your statements and advice and my learning curve of understanding.
I have another question.
I have a Bb horn, the one that Mitchell Lurie basically gave me when my horns were stolen while working at Rico. The horn has "Buffet Cie," imprinted inside the logos. What does the Cie mean? Does it mean a Bb clarinet or is this not an R 13? The horn plays well. The reason for asking is the serial number indicates it was from 1975. But after reading about the anniversary models having some sort of stamp on the 1975 horns there are no markings. The serial number is 160011.
Next question, is how can you tell if an older horn is actually an R 13 or a lower level student horn?
Confused!
Thanks again for your help.
Bob
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2010-09-26 08:46)
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2010-09-26 09:21
Cie is a shorthand for Compagnie.
Brand : Buffet Crampon
Instrument : R 13 Amérique
Serial number : 160011
Year of manufacturing : 18/09/1975
Hope that helps Bob. This should indicate that you have a R-13 pitched in A=440 (for American market).
ps: Lurie's clarinet... and Ignatius Gennusa's A... I am just a tad envious.
Post Edited (2010-09-26 09:35)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2010-09-28 02:01
Hey Franklin,
The reason Mitchell somewhat gave me the horn is I was desperate. Trying to work on his, Mitchell Lurie Reeds, without a horn to test them needless to say would be hopeless. I must say Mitchell was one of the kindest men I ever met. The first call I made was asking him for a loaner horn until I could find one. Well he showed up with this spare 1975 horn and Rico bought it for $600, maybe less. Long story short, he had the horn at my office at Rico by 10 AM the same morning. I had a special bond with Mitchell because we got along so well and of course Rico was selling 1.5 million reeds a year. I was in charge of his line of reeds for about 15 years, until I left Rico. Our friendship consisted of going out to dinners with our wives, havijng lunches every 2 months for so, redesigning his reeds in 1984, because I felt the reeds needed to be beefed up for high school students and college level players. I guess it worked because sales went from 900,000 units per year to 1.5 million in just 2 to 3 years.
Not that this this has anything to do with the subject, other then me finding it really interesting and I'm sure a lot of the readings hear will too. Mitchell could make a reed last for 6 months to a year. He didn't do anything special, other than slap on a reed and play it. While at Rico he made 3 amazing recordings with reeds around 6 months old.
As far as Iggie goes, we were talking about sound one day at his house in York Pennsylvania. This was back around 1980 or so. I complained about the latest reeds playing so poorly. I had bought about 5 boxes of Vandorens and couldn't get a reed to play. Nor could Iggie. Finally Iggie pulled out an old secret stash of Morre's reeds and put one on his horn. He handed the horn to me and said "Here play this!" I was so excited I didn't care about germs or anything! I played it and told him he could have his horn and mouthpiece back! I got to play his horn for the rest of the lesson. OMG what a great setup he had. I see why he was often said by musicians as having the finist sound around the world. I actually sounded like I had wanted to all of my life. A student outside of Gennusa's clarinet room, waiting for his lesson came in and said how impressed his sound was. I didn't say a word, nor did Gennusa. His horns were from the 1960's, which is why I'm looking for '60's vintage.
Those were really fun days taking lessons at his house. Like Mitchell Lurie Iggie had a big heart too. As most college students have no money, I often couldn't afford a lesson so he wouldn't charge me for the $25 lesson. Some people from the military bands were paying $100 a lesson.
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2010-09-28 03:27
What personalities to have known in person Bob. Lurie making a reed last for that long without doing anything special is a bit of a shocker to me (lazy so immediately headed to synthetic route).
I can only imagine how the student must have felt hearing Iggy.
My personal and limited bias regarding the magic of 60s Buffet would be that...
1. The instruments from then that survived till today are fairly stable.
2. The instruments made then were given better care by Buffet to make.
3. The surviving specimens would have more likely been cherry picked initially and setup with decent care, if they are are owned by musicians.
To me anyways, the things that determine the greatness of an instrument, in reversed order of importance, would be that of
1. having remarkable acoustic and mechanical design
2. being manufactured with great care
3. being setup professionally
4. serviced and cared for by the user.
I can only say for certain that this list has worked regarding out of the box instruments versus that of something Moennig, Weir or others like that have personally supervised. All the out of the box and the custom horns I've tried however are made in this century.
I wish I can play through surviving samples of 60s' Buffet and the competing 10G to correct this observation. That's part of being ignorant and shallow in experience...
edit: David Hay's observations would be worrisome if Buffet keeps using the same reamers and cutters for R-13 for decades on end. I recall that modern day Buffets would have been made using CNC process.
Post Edited (2010-09-28 03:40)
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2010-09-28 16:55
Bob Bernardo wrote:
>>>"Next question, is how can you tell if an older horn is actually an R 13 or a lower level student horn? Confused!"<<<
Student clarinets: Until 1980s all student level instruments had different logos than the professional Buffet instruments. Student level clarinets have been marked "Evette" or "Evette and Schaeffer".
Pro clarinets: Markings on all section should read "Buffet Crampon & Cie, A Paris, BC, Made in France". There isn't any other markings bellow the "Made in France" stamp on the R-13.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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