 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: The Kidd
Date: 2010-09-07 21:35
So, I am in the market for a used Buffet R13 Bflat clarinet. I contacted Woodwind and Brasswind and found out that their used R13s are 6 mos to one year old. I've heard that the newer R13s are made from wood that has not been cured as well (as earlier R13s) prior to its manufacture, and may be more subject to problems. What is your opinion??
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sfalexi
Date: 2010-09-07 22:31
If you search on this board (you might have to play around a bit with what specific keywords you use), you'll find what many people consider the "golden age" of R13s. I believe mid-sixties to early 80s. Does that mean you can't find a good clarinet of new stock? Nope. Does that mean that if you buy a clarinet of that "golden age" that it'll automatically be amazing and wonderful? Nope. MAYBE it's more probable that it'll be a great R13, but not guaranteed.
I'd say first figure out just how soon you need that clarinet. If you NEED it soon your options are limited. If you're just looking to upgrade at some point and aren't NEEDING an R13 at some point, take your time, check various mail-order sites, and guarantee you get a trial period for every instrument. If you need it soon, find what you can, and try out as much as you can.
I'm not too sure about the curing of the wood. But EVERY wooden instrument has the potential to crack. Unless you decide to look at a different material (which if sticking with the R13 model, you can look at a greenline, which won't crack under normal use)
Alexi
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: William
Date: 2010-09-09 00:02
One advantage in buying a used R13 (or any wood clarinet) is that, aside from economics--used being cheaper--if it has not cracked "by now", it probably will never crack. Time has proven the "wood is good", so to speak. All three of my Buffet R13's are from the 1960's and are excellant playing instruments--and have never cracked.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2010-09-09 01:42
Not to disagree with William, but I have seen older instruments crack, especially if abused and/or used carelessly.
A few years ago I observed a brand new crack in a Leblanc bass clarinet that had to have been at least 40 years old at the time.
William's advice above is good, but just remember a crack can appear any time in the lifetime of a wood instrument.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
World Class Clarinet Mouthpieces
New and Used Buffet Clarinets
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2010-09-09 18:08
I assume you are looking for a replacement for the clarinet you talked about in a recent thread, that the involvement of an insurance company pretty much limits your choice to an R13 and that, beyond a deductible, your insurance company will be paying for your instrument so the cost is a secondary issue.
I agree with Walter. In previous discussion of this question, other posters have pointed out that, because of their wood, some clarinets are going to crack regardless of how carefully one treats them and others won't crack regardless of how badly one treats them (absent really serious abuse). It's probably safe to say that, the longer a clarinet goes without cracking, the less likely it is to crack in the future. However, I think, that if a clarinet is destined to crack regardless of how well its cared for, then most of the time, it will crack within the first couple years of use. I would expect (and Walter, please correct me if I'm wrong), that an instrument that hasn't cracked after 6-10 years, is a relatively safe bet -- at least not prone to crack.
If WW&BW's "used" clarinets are all in the 1/2 year to year-old range, they are probably still in the "too early to tell" stage. I suspect that most, if not all of these, are essentially new instruments that WW&BW is sellling as "used" on a technicality (possibly floor demos) so that they can sell at a price below Buffet's enforced price for new clarinets. Keep in mind though, that while you may run across grisly stories from owners relating how their new clarinet has cracked and even if the probability of a new R13's cracking is higher now than it may have been in the "golden era," that probability is still pretty low.
I think Alexi is overly generous with his range for the golden age. While you can undoubtedly find some owners who will tell you their 1974 or 76 or 78 (e.g.) R13 is a great instrument, most "authorities" that I have read/talked to would say that the period from the late 50's (after introduction of the polycylindrical bore) through the late 60's, or maybe early 70's was the true "golden age." Some set the cutoff at the point in the late 60s or early 70s where Buffet (for the last time?) changed from using a flat spring on the R13's C#/G# key to a needle spring on a post. During that period, the R13 was Buffet's top-of-the-line professional clarinet. It was made of the best wood available and worked on by the best craftsmen. Now it is their entry-level professional clarinet.
The downside to an older clarinet is that there may have been design improvements in more recent versions and, the older a clarinet is, the more opportunity it has had for normal wear and tear, not to mention abuse.
If I were you, I would look for an instrument that plays in tune and that you can be confident is in top condition, either because it is relatively new and has received little use or because it has been put into like-new condition by a top-notch professional repairman (such as Walter Grabner, btw). While, in your case, I believe resale value is of little relevance, I probably would stay with instruments made within the last 5-15 years. Also, since the insurance company will apparently go for it, the WW&BW clarinets are worth a look. You might check Weiner Music for used R13s. They usually have some with perhaps more variety. Other possibilities would include Vytas Krass and, on eBay, the seller cpaok.
Best regards,
jnk
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: The Kidd
Date: 2010-09-13 15:31
So here's my new dilemma - I spoke with Mark at Weiner Music, and they have no used R13s at this time, but offered a new nickel-plated R13 for a couple hundred dollars more than the "slightly used" clarinets at WW & BW. What are your thoughts about new?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2010-09-13 15:46
If you ask WWBW for serial numbers, you can check the database at Buffet for info as to when they were made.
Having said that, I sold my R13s to WWBW a couple of months back, trading them in for a tenor sax. My R13s were purchased from Weiners back in 1991, chosen from about twenty different horns.
If you get serial numbers from WWBW, you can contact me via email and I'll let you know if they were my horns. If they were, I can tell give you more info. My R13s never cracked, and I played them for a decade: undergrad, grad school, and professionally.
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2010-09-13 16:11
Here are some things I would have to consider in your position:
1. Who will have to pay the extra $200? You or the insurance company? If the latter, is it ethical to put that cost on the insurance company, given the terms of your policy and the reason you're making the claim in the first place? (At the very least, I would want to discuss the situation with an adjuster.) Of course, if you will be responsible for the extra $200, this issue is irrelevant.
2. Mark has been with Weiner for years. He knows clarinets. If he sets your instrument up before they send it out, it should be done right. Before I bought from Weiner, I would ask whether, at the price they are asking, Mark will set up the instrument.
3. As I said in my earlier post, the WW&BW instruments are probably, for all intents and purposes, also new though they have been classified as used. (In fact, they may be as "new" as the Weiner instrument. If an instrument has been out on trial a few/several times is it still new? Probably depends on company policy. How many clarinetists are going to sell an instrument as used to WW&BW after 6 mos. or a year?) In any case, IMO, there is nothing wrong with new. A new R13 will very likely be a great clarinet... and it should have its warranty intact (and don't underestimate the impact shiny new will normally have on a child your daughter's age.) Do the WW&BW clarinets carry the manufacturer's warranty? Odds are that a new R13 won't crack but if it does...
4. Do the WW&BW clarinets have nickle-plated or silver-plated keys. There was a time (before I owned any clarinets with silver-plated keys) that it wouldn't have mattered much to me one way or the other. Now, I have a strong preference for silver. If the WW&BW clarinets are silver-plated, the extra amount you "pay" Weiner is more than $200, IMO.
Best regards,
jnk
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed
Date: 2010-09-13 16:46
Some thoughts-
I would not worry about golden era vs other. (BTW- some sources say that golden era was only mid to late 60's, so who knows?)
A good instrument is a good instrument. I have played good and not so good from all eras. I wouldn't get too crazy over it. Find something that works for you with your set up regardless of serial number.
My clarinet cracked after 15 years, which I never expected to see.
There are lots of places that can sell you a good instrument. Check Muncy
http://www.muncywinds.com/index.php/pre-owned-instruments/bb-clarinets.html
Walter Grabner often has some good used instruments at reasonable prices.
See if Jonathan can help you over at Wright Music.
http://www.wrightmusic.biz/
Good luck!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: The Kidd
Date: 2010-09-15 14:35
Thanks to all of you for your thoughtful comments - you have been a great help! Now comes the process of deciding which one to get. I admit, I have learned more about clarinets in the last three weeks than I ever knew before. Thanks again!!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2010-09-15 18:01
Used R-13s that have been professional serviced shouldn't be tough to find. I know that guys like Tom Ridenour and Morrie get them in all the time and they would easily be able to vouch for an instrument that they serviced recently. What I can say without hesitation is that a professional serviced and setup horn will outperform most new horns out of the box, nevermind any store demo units.
Don't be in an absolute rush I think is the most important thing given what you want to do with your instrument. As long as you've got the money, you should take all the time in the world to mull it over and try things out.
(I've been drawn to the dark side, resorting to blind draw using that auction site. Not the best way to get a pro instrument...)
Post Edited (2010-09-15 18:12)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: crelias11
Date: 2019-09-21 22:23
What would be a good price for a Buffet R13, silver keys, excellent condition, like new serial #649060. I am not sure I have the right year as being a vintage 1960's clarinet because of the excellent condition. Plays beautifully. I am a bassoon player but my daughter played 3 today and picked it over the 1950's Buffet and another brand we won't even mention. I just would like to know the year it was made as the serial numbers are confusing and not sure they are accurate since the clarinet is so nice. It is listed as Vintage. Please email me with advice. Thank you. I know I didn't want a new R13. Where I looked at this clarinet he had around 15 new R13 and 12 had issues. My bassoon is vintage and a glorious sound that's why I went vintage and my daughter has a vintage Buffet and in some ways likes mine better. Its been completely over hauled but looks hardly used. Nice sound at least as good as a bassoon player (clarinet player 50 years ago) can get at the moment. Advice appreciated.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Max S-D
Date: 2019-09-22 01:52
I'll preface this by saying that I'm not an expert in vintage Buffets, nor do I have the experience that some on this board have with a wide variety of vintage and modern clarinets.
With that said, that serial number seems pretty high.
My modern R13 (purchased new in 2006) has a serial of 558XXX. Looking at the serial number chart on Clarinet Perfection, Buffet serial numbers for their professional clarinets seem to have been assigned roughly sequentially since 1928. Their charts end in 2005, but I'd venture a guess that a 649060 serial number is a modern instrument.
Perhaps the shop where you tried it didn't mean that it was a vintage instrument, but rather the Buffet (capital-V) Vintage model of clarinet?
You can check out the Vintage model on Buffet's site: https://www.buffet-crampon.com/en/instruments/clarinets/vintage/
They even have a close up of a serial number on that page and it's a 602XXX number.
The Clarinet Perfection charts for your reference: https://www.woodwindforum.com/clarinetperfection/snbuffet-serial-numbers/
Or is there a typo and the serial actually has 5 digits? If so, the clarinet perfection chart would put that around 1960. Not "golden age" if you ask some people, but definitely "golden age" if you ask others.
Maybe I just have bad taste, but I've played a few other players' beloved vintage or "higher-end" (RC, Prestige, Vintage) Buffets and, for me, I always prefer my plain-Jane modern R13 with nickel keys.
I wouldn't get too hung up on whether an instrument is vintage or modern (or Vintage). Just play a bunch and get the one that plays well. Who knows? Maybe you'll have bad taste like me.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
