 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: suavkue
Date: 2010-08-09 00:22
I switched to double lip embouchure about a year ago after finding out from my last teacher that I was having biting issues (usual scratches on the mouthpiece by teeth, etc.). I am no longer taking lessons at the moment; I've been told I have a nice sound, but I have a problem: the bite that I have is cutting through my lip, so it's hard for me to practice longer than 30 minutes without lip pain. I was using mouthpiece pads for a certain amount of time, but since then, I've found that the response improves as soon as I remove the pad. The mouth is basically the most tense part when I play clarinet due to this lip pain, and I've had three private teachers, who, during the time I had them, have not been able to help me with it completely.
Suggestions are appreciated - thanks.
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My current equipment:
Ridenour Lyrique 576BC, Rico Reserve 4, Ridenour Hand Finished Mouthpiece, Luyben Ligature
Post Edited (2010-08-09 00:25)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2010-08-09 00:43
Try putting more mouthpiece in your mouth. I've found that the more reed you have vibrating, the less "pinching" you have to do. From the board, I learned keep taking in mouthpiece until you squeak. Back off just a bit, and that's about the right amount. It's more than you think, and when you do that, the whole reed is free to vibrate and it takes very little embouchure pressure.
Alexi
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Author: Ed
Date: 2010-08-09 01:07
Try to keep the lips firm without using as much jaw. Your lips should grip firmly all around.
Check out Tom Ridenour's videos. He has 3 on double lip.
www.youtube.com/user/billyboy647#p/u/69/NWP22w28Jak
Post Edited (2010-08-09 03:12)
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2010-08-09 01:40
I second Ed's recommendation of Tom Ridenour's videos on the double-lip embouchure..
Although I don't play double-lip anymore, I use it with students who bite and when I feel myself trying to muscle the reed. Tom's explanations are clear and cogent.
B.
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Author: Brenda ★2017
Date: 2010-08-09 02:39
What about lip exercises?!! While driving or doing anything that doesn't otherwise require the lips to move, these can be worth a lot.
The best thing I've tried is a folded up business card... it has the right spring and resistance for building strength, yet doesn't slip out of your lip grip like a pencil does. It should be held in place with the lips only, with the teeth not meeting at all. This isolates the muscles needed to be trained without a "crutch", sort of like doing sit-ups without tucking your feet under the sofa for support.
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Author: suavkue
Date: 2010-08-09 02:45
@Brenda: Interesting. I'll try that tonight.
I've noticed that I haven't been using the "firm" part of the upper lip, and as soon as I put it in, I have to "cave in" a little more of the upper lip than I expect. I tried playing this way - it sounds nicer (although it's hard to keep the chin down at the same time) than my previous embouchure, although there seems to be an air leak that I can't solve yet. Thank you for all of your suggestions - I think I'll keep updating on the situation here.
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My current equipment:
Ridenour Lyrique 576BC, Rico Reserve 4, Ridenour Hand Finished Mouthpiece, Luyben Ligature
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Author: gigaday
Date: 2010-08-09 14:22
I tried double lip for about 4 months and became reasonably proficient. I noticed that my upper lip became extremely tolerant and I was able to apply almost as much pressure double lip as I had been doing single lip.
However, I never managed to fully master the altissimo with DL and could only produce these notes at the beginning of a practice session. For this reason I have returned to single lip - but I think I learned a bit from doing the DL for a while.
Using number 4 reeds seems pretty hard to me. I play M15, which I think isn't a lot different to M13. VD say that the M15 will play 3.5/4/5 but I find that 3 is quite hard enough and even play 2.5 sometimes. Trying softer reeds might help you.
Tony
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Author: suavkue
Date: 2010-08-09 14:51
@gigaday: I just recently switched from 3.5 to 4 because I found that Vandoren 3.5s are too "thin" for me and don't seem to last long.
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My current equipment:
Ridenour Lyrique 576BC, Rico Reserve 4, Ridenour Hand Finished Mouthpiece, Luyben Ligature
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Author: MondeLuna
Date: 2010-08-09 15:26
I play double lip, and I have my whole life. I have also used single lip at the recommendation of symphony clarinetists and other teachers. At the end of the day I always go back to double lip, it is what works for me.
Disclaimer: The only person who ever noticed I played double lip was my 1st clarinet teacher, nobody else notices until I spill the beans.
Anyway that is not the point. I recently got my wisdom teeth pulled and since I couldn't play my clarinet I simply practiced making my embouchure. Since your upper lip hurts maybe you should try this sometimes to give it a rest. You could start with the lower lip flattening the jaw and rolling your bottom lip over the teeth. Then roll your upper lip over and bring the corners in. You should feel a slight stretch in the corners. I am assuming that is where your leak is.
After your lip feels better give it a go on the clarinet, just make sure your corners are in. Also I second the advice about taking in a little more mouthpiece, it always helps. If your lips start to hurt you could always stop practicing or switch to single lip otherwise your embochure is going to be compromised and it won't help you to play double lip during that time anyway.
Hopefully some of this was helpful to you. Best Wishes!
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Author: oldvter
Date: 2010-08-09 18:09
I took a lesson with Richard Stoltzman earlier this year, and he plays double lip. He uses white floral tape on both his upper and lower teeth.
Since then I have taken to using this product on my lower teeth (I do not play double lip), and it helps quite a bit. Just take a length of the tape and fold it over to the thickness/length you need. That will take some trial and error. Extends the practice session and alleviates the pain!
A roll can be purchased at a craft store quite inexpensively.
Good luck!
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Author: kdk
Date: 2010-08-09 18:50
Having used a double-lip embouchure for many years, I don't believe that the difference is so much in how much pressure you can apply against the reed. It's in the way you apply the pressure. Double lip certainly makes pinching - biting against the mouthpiece primarily with the jaw muscles you use while chewing or biting food - uncomfortable and tends to serve as a deterrent for players who have developed a biting or pinching habit. You use different muscles - those in the lips themselves which, in my own experience, are the ones I use to form the syllable "O" or "Oh," or more extremely, "ooo."
Using these muscles actually allows me (if a specific reed demands it) to apply _more_ pressure to the reed than I comfortably could when biting with either single or double lip. I don't suggest that more pressure is good or that it should be necessary - that depends on the vibrating characteristics of the reeds you like to play. It does allow me more flexibility in the reeds I use - I can make a wider variety of reeds play acceptably with double lip or with a single lip embouchure that carefully imitates my double lip one. It also means that a double lip embouchure in itself shouldn't make it difficult or impossible to play into the altissimo register.
V12 #4 shouldn't be a struggle on an M-13, although I know people who use 3-1/2s on it. It may matter why you feel 3-1/2s are too soft. If you're biting them off, maybe you still haven't made the adjustment from biting despite the change to double lip. If you only don't like the sound - too reedy, thin, "bright" - then maybe you just prefer the quality of a harder reed. In any case, pain after a year of using double lip may indicate that you're still biting despite the embouchure change.
Are you having any pain in your lower lip also? That might indicate you're still using too much jaw bite and too little of the facial muscles (and air) to control the reed.
Karl
Post Edited (2010-08-09 22:14)
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Author: Ron
Date: 2010-08-14 10:09
I played double lip as a kid and then started to play single lip in my 30's. I would strongly suggest that you get a different mouthpiece with a medium facing and use softer reeds to develop the muscles in the emboucure for your double lip playing.
You need to be patient and don't rush the transition. The idea of putting a piece of an index card over your top teeth will definitely help. Also, when you feel that your chops are tiring and you are not ready to take a break, you can rest the bell of the clarinet on your lap. This will ease up the stress on the upper lip. Better, however, is to take a break and don't over due it.
When you are finished practicing and you feel your upper lip is very sore, take a washcloth and wet it with very warm water (not hot water as you don't want to burn yourself) and put the washcloth on your closed mouth to bring blood to your lip muscles. This is a soothing practice that Gino Cioffi used and taught to his students one of which was me. Mr. Cioffi played double lip.
Playing double lip requires great patience to build up the muscles in the your embourcure. It may take several months to build up your muscles so you have the endurance needed for practicing and solid performing.
The M13Lyre is a great mouthpiece but was designed to use harder reeds than the ones required to develop double lip. I have an M13Lyre and would not play double lip with it.
You may want to try a Vandoren 5RV or any other reputable mouthpiece with a medium facing. I would not go harder than a VD Blue Box 3.0 and would probably start with a 2.5 and then work up to a 3.0.
Ron
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