 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2010-08-02 21:25
I own a Korg CA-30 tuner, and it works fine for me, but I was trying out some clarinets the other day, and the store owner had a very fancy tuner (about the size of a desktop computer...maybe a bit smaller) that showed not only the primary tone, but also the several undertones (I hope I'm using the right term here, for I am certainly somewhat ignorant in this area). At any rate, you could play a note and see what the fundamental, as well as the harmonics, were doing with respect to being in tune. For example, the fundamental might be "in tune", but the harmonic(s) might be a bit off until I blew the note just right.
I did ask him about the price of such equipment, and he said that one cost in the neighborhood of $350, so I doubt if I would be interested in one. I would like to ask if any of you had a similar "tuner", and if so, are there any out there that will do that at a cheaper price (that are any good at least)?
It would seem to me that one could benefit greatly from such a device, for it immediately tells you how you're doing with all the harmonics...not just the fundamental as I said.
CarlT
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2010-08-02 21:46
Probably this was some form of Peterson strobotuner (nowadays not reliant on a mechanical strobe function.)
They are handy in certain applications.
There are also many audio software programs that display a full spectrum of the sound along with fundamentals and over/undertones.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2010-08-02 23:01
I agree with Allan Segal--it was probably some form of strobotuner. I remember the Conn Strobotuner very well from my high school days, and these were fixtures in many band rooms. I was thrilled when smaller tuners came out, but the early ones were expensive. In the early 80s I often ordered reeds and other items from Leon Russianoff's shop in New York. In 1981, Leon offered a super special--a Korg tuner for only $125. Of course, I bought one and used it for many years. Nobody then realized how inexpensive they would eventually become.
Now, to get back to your question. I personally don't think that I'd get stressed about harmonics of fundamental pitches being perfectly in tune. Here's how I understand it (if anyone wants to disagree with me, please go ahead). The standard method of tuning today is equal temperament. I'm not an expert in clarinet acoustics, but I'm assuming that the better instruments, the ones that are said to play well in tune, conform well to the tuning standards of equal temperament. Equal temperament, the way most pianos are tuned today, is a compromise. It allows a piano (or another instrument) to play in tune in every key, but some intervals are "off." Just intonation is the more "correct" tuning, and it is often used by instrumentalists (especially when not playing along with a piano), but it requires a very good ear to make the fine adjustments necessary. If pianos were tuned with just intonation, playing in some keys would sound wonderful while other keys would be a disaster.
Let's say that you're playing your low G. The fundamental pitch might be in tune in an equal tempered scale. The overtones, though, don't conform to the rules of equal temperament, so I'm guessing (perhaps I'm wrong) that they might be slightly "off." It's possible to go crazy worrying about this, and I don't think it's worth it.
Check out this discussion from Sax on the Web: http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?76459-your-defination-of-quot-Perfect-intonation-quot
Post Edited (2010-08-02 23:50)
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2010-08-03 00:48
Thanks, Dr. Segal and Clarinet guy.
Clarinetguy said, "I personally don't think that I'd get stressed about harmonics of fundamental pitches being perfectly in tune."
Yes, you're right I am sure. Then engineer in me just had to come out, as I am quite detail oriented. I will just continue with my present $30 Korg CA-30 and also try to make a good sound, but I just thought, "how neat" that was to be able to visualize the harmonics, along with the fundamental tone. It would be fun to play around with, but doubt if playing progress would be helped "that" much.
Oh, and I will check out the Sax-on-the-Web thread.
Again, muchas gracias, Seniors.
CarlT
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2010-08-03 02:13
>>> I am quite detail oriented.
There's a term for folks like that! ![[rotate]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley25.gif)
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-08-03 02:15
Well I have to say that my metronome is always rushing or slowing down and my tuner is always making my notes sharp or flat so the last thing I need is something that is making my harmonics out of tune too. When they invent something that makes all my notes play in tune and perfect rhythm then I'm willing to pay the price.  ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2010-08-03 03:22
Ed, there is such a device.
They cost 3 million dollars.
They call them......................Maestro.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2010-08-03 03:23)
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Author: dansil
Date: 2010-08-03 07:08
Hey Ed
I've got one of those malfunctioning metronomes but I don't know who can fix it! My tuner also malfunctions and so often shows my notes to be flat or sharp even when I KNOW I'm on pitch.
Must be due to cheap imported electronics ;-)
Danny
a family doctor in Castlemaine, rural Victoria, Australia for the past 30+ years, also a plucked string musician (mandolin, classical guitar) for far too long before discovering the clarinet - what a missed opportunity!
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2010-08-03 11:57
There is an APP for that. I have a strobotuner on my Iphone. It's called strobsoft and it's by perterson. It works great and Steve Jobs just made an update availible that identifies my clarinet and makes it look intune when I play and does this for nobody else. That way I always win the pitch wars. Seriously though it is a great app for 9.99. Tom Puwalski
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Author: William
Date: 2010-08-03 16:00
My tuner is free--it's called my ear. It may not be *perfect*, but it is capable of negotiating pitch "wars" with everyone else's imperfect ears. Really, we do not play in tune because of electronic aids--good intonation is good pitch cooperation between all "ears" of the ensemble. To paraphare Spok, science officer of the spaceship Enterprise, "the [harmonic] needs of the whole are much greater than the [harmonic] needs of the individual". In other words, it is much more important to PLAY in tune than to BE in tune. Same concept can be applied to tempi and simply staying together. Tuners and metronomes do have their place in our musical lives, but it is much more important to learn to listen, cooperate with others and play music without them.
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Author: Bennett ★2017
Date: 2010-08-03 16:01
I'm confused by this thread. Aren't harmonics by definition in tune with their fundamentals? If a fundamental is 400 Hz, can its 3rd harmonic be anything other than a multiple of that?
Clarification appreciated.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2010-08-03 18:33
Bennett wrote:
>> I'm confused by this thread. Aren't harmonics by definition in tune with their fundamentals? If a fundamental is 400 Hz, can its 3rd harmonic be anything other than a multiple of that?>>
In a clarinet, which is a continuously excited instrument -- unlike a piano -- that's right. The harmonics are necessarily whole number multiples of the fundamental, as per Fourier's theorem.
Tony
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-08-03 18:38
I find that playing in tune interferes with the visceral projection of my tonal and improvisational concepts. Besides, its too damned hard to do. So I never, ever look at a tuner. Funny how nobody calls me for gigs......
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2010-08-03 20:56
Bennett said, "I'm confused by this thread. Aren't harmonics by definition in tune with their fundamentals? If a fundamental is 400 Hz, can its 3rd harmonic be anything other than a multiple of that?"
Very good point. I guess what would be interesting to play around with then would be a device like the one shown in the Sax on the Web thread (see p. 2 of that thread if you're interested) video link that Clarinetguy referred me to.
It displays a very good sound wave (played by a very good player) and allows a player with less ability to try to match that tone (Shows fundamental and harmonic frequencies).
It shows a student playing a note as she would normally play it, and the corresponding audio tone is displayed. It then shows the audio frequencies of the advanced player. The girl then makes the necessary changes to match the more advanced player's tone.
The link is http://www.audi-graph.com/
Again, I probably won't buy it, but I just think it's an interesting concept.
CarlT
Post Edited (2010-08-04 00:33)
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Author: Bennett ★2017
Date: 2010-08-04 16:46
Let me ask a slightly different question. Since harmonics are by definition in tune with their fundamentals, can/does a clarinet create overtones that are not multiples of their fundamental?
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2010-08-04 17:39
Bennett wrote:
>> Let me ask a slightly different question. Since harmonics are by definition in tune with their fundamentals, can/does a clarinet create overtones that are not multiples of their fundamental?>>
Not ones that participate in the periodic oscillation. Very high frequency 'noise' can be present. The lower ones have to be multiples of the fundamental.
Of course, the PROPORTIONS of these 'integer-multipled' harmonics are crucial to the perceived sound -- I think that's what the gadgets being described here are displaying.
Tony
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Author: LesterV
Date: 2010-08-04 18:47
There are two separate issues here that can be confusing.
First, the reed vibration generates a fundamental frequency and harmonics that are exact integer multiples of that frequency.
Second, the clarinet air column has a fundamental resonant frequency and overtone resonances that are close to, but not necessarily perfect, odd integer multiples of the fundamental resonance. This is why the overblown note for a given fingering can be slightly different than a perfect twelfth (triple the fundamental frequency)
The sound of each individual clarinet is influenced by how close these resonances are relative to the harmonic frequencies generated by the reed. A small difference can significantly lower the acoustical amplitude of the harmonic.
Polycylindrical bores are one method of attempting to minimize the differences to correct tuning problems inherent in a uniform bore but this also strengthens the harmonics producing a brighter sound in the low register.
The design of a clarinet involves many compromises and different players prefer a different set of compromises. Consequently, it is unlikely that there will ever be a design that everyone agrees is the best.
Those interested in learning more should get a copy of "Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics" by Arthur H. Benade.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2010-08-05 16:03
Lester wrote:
>> There are two separate issues here that can be confusing.>>
You're right; but I'd like to clarify one aspect of what you write that could still confuse some people, in my view.
You say, in part:
>> First, the reed vibration generates a fundamental frequency and harmonics that are exact integer multiples of that frequency.
Second, the clarinet air column has a fundamental resonant frequency and overtone resonances that are close to, but not necessarily perfect, odd integer multiples of the fundamental resonance. This is why the overblown note for a given fingering can be slightly different than a perfect twelfth (triple the fundamental frequency).
The sound of each individual clarinet is influenced by how close these resonances are relative to the harmonic frequencies generated by the reed. A small difference can significantly lower the acoustical amplitude of the harmonic.>>
This could give the impression that you're dividing the clarinet into:
(1) how the reed behaves, and
(2) how the air column behaves
...with the reed driving the air column.
But that's no more true than saying that the air column drives the reed.
The fact is that the two of them -- and the inside of your mouth (NB, Paul Aviles) -- interact in a complex way to produce just one waveform.
So I'd put that part of what you write in the following way, amplifying it a bit:
"The coupled vibrations of the reed and air column (and, incidentally, the airspace in the mouth cavity behind the reed) in a steadily blown clarinet generate a complex periodic waveform within the instrument, a proportion of which is broadcast into the environment as sound. Like any periodic waveform, this sound can be analysed into the sum of different proportions of (a) a fundamental frequency and (b) each of the exact integer multiples of that frequency (theoretically an infinite number of them). This collection of higher frequencies (the multiples) are called the harmonics of the sound.
On the other hand, the clarinet air column in a particular fingering is associated with a series of resonance frequencies, corresponding to its different possible modes of oscillation -- the different notes that you can produce by overblowing it -- that are close to, but not necessarily perfect, odd integer multiples of the fundamental resonance. This is why the first overblown note for a given fingering can be slightly different than a perfect twelfth (triple the fundamental frequency), and similarly for higher overblown notes for that fingering, which as you go up quickly become wildly different from integer multiples of the fundamental frequency.
The sound of the fundamental of each individual clarinet is influenced by how close these resonance frequencies are to the exact integer multiples of the fundamental frequency (the harmonics), because a small difference can significantly lower the proportion of the relevant harmonic in the resultant sound."
Tony
Post Edited (2010-08-05 18:33)
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Author: LesterV
Date: 2010-08-05 19:32
Tony,
Thanks for clarifying what I was trying to get across. I didn't intend to imply that the reed acted independent of the air column - only that higher order air column resonances don't necessarily coincide perfectly with vibrating reed's harmonics to degree that varies from instrument to instrument.
The reed will certainly always vibrate at a frequency near the peak of an air column resonance. This is because acoustical energy moving away from the mouthpiece is strongly reflected by any open hole (including the bell) back toward the reed. The reflected energy provides strong positive feedback at the reed thus forming a mechanical oscillator vibrating at or near the air column resonant frequency peak. It is difficult for the player to alter the reed vibration frequency very much with his/her embouchure because the phase of the reflected energy changes rapidly with a change in frequency near this resonant peak. This change in phase opposes attempts by the player to change the vibration frequency.
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Author: Bennett ★2017
Date: 2010-08-05 20:44
High C above the staff (C6) may not be an even multiple of C4 but are high C's overtones, thin as they are, precise multiples of high C?
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2010-08-05 21:04
Bennett wrote:
>> High C above the staff (C6) may not be an even multiple of C4 but are high C's overtones, thin as they are, precise multiples of high C?>>
Yes. (Very high and thin:-)
Actually, I don't know very much about what happens in real clarinet playing up there. There can be quite a lot of noise involved as you go higher, and I used to have the theory that something funny happened with the overtones.
However, I went into a lab in Cambridge and played into a Fourier analyser, and everything was as theory predicted....
Tony
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