 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: suavkue
Date: 2010-07-31 17:41
First of all, I'd like to thank everyone on this BBoard - in the short time I've known of this forum, I've been able to make use of this forum greatly and have learned a lot.
Now onto the situation: I am a senior who just graduated from high school and am having some communication problems with the university that I will be attending next year - I am double majoring in Clarinet Performance (Bachelor of Music) and Mathematics (Actuarial emphasis) and am currently registered as a "B.M. Clarinet Performance *and* Actuarial Science." Concerning double majors that have subjects that aren't *supposed* to be in the same degree (i.e. mathematics is not supposed to be a B.M. major), is the math degree in this case supposed to be a B.S. or B.A. (i.e. *NOT* a B.M.)? Thanks for any help.
(I have already contacted the advising staff at the university and have not received a response; I plan to call them directly on Monday.)
EDIT: I might be confusing a few people - my main concern is that my Math degree is integrated with my B.M. - is it not supposed to be a different one (i.e. B.S. or B.A.)?
-----
My current equipment:
Ridenour Lyrique 576BC, Rico Reserve 4, Ridenour Hand Finished Mouthpiece, Luyben Ligature
Post Edited (2010-07-31 19:14)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Joseph Brenner, Jr.
Date: 2010-07-31 18:35
Is the answer to your question not within the exclusive jurisdiction of the university? Is there a practical distinction between the value of the B.A. and that of the B.S.? The school from which I received my baccalaureate degree awards only the B.A. degree, whether one's major is art, music, or physics.
I hope that you and your school reach agreement.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2010-07-31 20:40
The university undoubtedly has a policy in place for situations like this. What you need to understand, I think, is that, at most schools, a student who is a double major still only receives one degree, not two. Most likely, your degree will be a Bachelor of ? (probably determined in this case by the major you identify as your "first" one), with majors in Music and Mathematics, not a bachelor's degree in Music and a separate bachelor's degree in Math. Earning two degrees, even if both are bachelor's degrees, ordinarily requires considerably more hours than a single degree with a double major, at least at respectable schools.
Best regards,
jnk
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: EEBaum
Date: 2010-07-31 21:15
Throughout my undergrad, the system said "BS Computer Science, Composition." My diploma says "BS Computer Science, BM Composition."
Unless you have an extraordinarily pedantic potential employer or grad school, I doubt it matters.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: suavkue
Date: 2010-07-31 21:17
Thanks, Jack - I think that may be the problem, since I saw getting a double major to mean getting two degrees (and I somehow expected that my B.M. credits would transfer to the B.S. degree, if I were to have a B.S. with the B.M.). That clears a lot up.
@Alex: So it really doesn't matter too much, does it? Thanks.
-----
My current equipment:
Ridenour Lyrique 576BC, Rico Reserve 4, Ridenour Hand Finished Mouthpiece, Luyben Ligature
Post Edited (2010-07-31 21:18)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: EEBaum
Date: 2010-08-01 01:33
Some places have a distinction between a "double major" and a "second major." Theoretically, the difference would be that a double major is two majors of the same bachelor-type (e.g. two BMs) and a second major would occur when the two majors were of different bachelor-types (e.g. BM, BS). Depending on who you talked to, my undergrad did or did not make that distinction. Some people in the administration seemed to think it was terribly important which I listed as my first and which as my second. Others did not.
I had to fulfill all the requirements of each major. The only things that counted for both were general ed and one music class in sound synthesis that my comp sci advisor approved for a vague elective category. Took 7 years.
I got hired for a job with my BS, and accepted into grad school with my BM. Indeed, doesn't matter too much.
I've always found the S, M, A, etc. to be pretty arbitrary.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: suavkue
Date: 2010-08-01 02:00
So, let's say I contact them on Monday, asking them to switch the mathematics one to a BS. (I am planning on attending grad. school, by the way.) At the university that I attend, the only difference between the BM and BS are the different major requirements (obviously) and that I have to take 6 extra Natural Science credits + 1 extra lab for GEs. The thing is, though, would these GEs even be transferable between degrees? (I should probably ask the advising staff on Monday, but I'd like to hear of any experiences.)
Side note: The music advisor at orientation told me that it would take me 5 years to finish (AP credit, Theory Placement Exams, and summer classes, I hope, will lower it to 4 or less).
-----
My current equipment:
Ridenour Lyrique 576BC, Rico Reserve 4, Ridenour Hand Finished Mouthpiece, Luyben Ligature
Post Edited (2010-08-01 02:02)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: EEBaum
Date: 2010-08-01 02:35
Was 5 years an estimate for just the music degree, or both combined?
I think that, regardless of which you declare your major, you will probably have to do all the requirements for the music degree and all the requirements for the math degree, as if you were doing them separately. Any classes that fulfill requirements for both degrees, you'll be able to use for both. But different places work differently, so I dunno.
For me, for each major, it was a case of "you need to take classes that fit these categories. Did you take such classes?"
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: suavkue
Date: 2010-08-01 02:48
5 years was the combined estimate. At the university I attend, they have specific courses that they ask us to take (math ones are extremely sequential).
-----
My current equipment:
Ridenour Lyrique 576BC, Rico Reserve 4, Ridenour Hand Finished Mouthpiece, Luyben Ligature
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2010-08-01 03:24
One of the very top of the top (if not #1, maybe #2...) current University Teachers requires all of his undergrad students to double major if they come to him as a performance major.
Won't say his name, but his 1st initial is Y - and his students are the ones who seem to get a LOT of the jobs.
But still it makes a lot of sense!!
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-08-01 03:50
I think every University does this differently. It may be different with a University that has an independent conservatory or school of music under it's name or a University that simply has a department of music. An example is when I taught at the Peabody Conservator of Music of the Johns Hopkins University. A double major received two degrees in two different subjects and took very few courses that were accepted for both degrees. Mostly some electives that fit into both programs. I had several students that did that but they had to be very talented, very smart and very ambitious to be successful at both, especially those doing a double degree in subjects like computer science. One of my best students ever was a computer science major and he got a very good job in that field. I hope he picks up his clarinet sometime, he sure was a talent. You know what though, he's making a very good living doing at least one of the things he loved. That's a lot more than I can say for the vast majority of clarinet majors that we graduate with a performance degree in the USA every year from all our music schools.
There's two schools of thought on doing a double degree. One is that you have to devote all your time to your music performance degree in order to be successful, the other is that by doing two degrees the student actually has a chance of getting a job in at least one of them after graduating college. I always felt better about a double degree majors myself for that reason. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: EEBaum
Date: 2010-08-01 04:12
In my situation, this was all also something that you could redeclare long into your college career. Likely no need to worry about this now, you can work out the details in coming months/years.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-08-01 18:16
Oberlin has a true 5 year double major. Switch to Oberlin.
..................Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: SVClarinet09
Date: 2010-08-02 19:55
Speaking from someone who was in your situation last year, I know that getting a B.M. and a degree in something other than music is rather tedious and difficult. There wasn't much flexibility with the music classes IE theory, ear training, conducting, etc. In addition, alot of those classes do not count for credits towards a B.S. degree. As for a B.A. degree, only certain classes would transfer. Essentially, I recommend if you can, double major in B.A. Music with an emphasis on clarinet performance and a B.A. in math if you guys have it. I know many majors at my school in performance and education who tried doubling up or switching and are going on their fifth-sixth year. I myself dropped the double major as I'm on an army scholarship that requires me to graduate in four.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: suavkue
Date: 2010-08-02 21:59
@SVClarinet09: The university in which I am enrolled does not offer emphases in B.A. in Music (it's intended for Musicology in that case).
I got a response today from the advising staff; they stated that since Clarinet Performance is listed first, the degree that I am going for would be a B.M. They told me I could switch it to a B.S. by switching around the majors (i.e. two degrees is not an option). Opinions? (I am considering grad. school.)
-----
My current equipment:
Ridenour Lyrique 576BC, Rico Reserve 4, Ridenour Hand Finished Mouthpiece, Luyben Ligature
Post Edited (2010-08-02 22:00)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2010-08-03 02:52
There really isn't a music profession anymore so having a Major in clarinet performance doesn't seem like it would be worth how the many of thousand of dollars it's going to cost you or your parents. I know this is America and just like in spring training every major league team has potential to go to the big show, every freshman clarinet major has the potential to make the finals of the NY phil.
The reality is very few performers that major in music will ever play a professional gig let alone land the "big" big.
When I was auditioning clarinets for the US Army Field Band, I heard many Clarinet performance majors. Some had upwards of 60-90 grand in debt. Most of those never made it past the first round of the audition. 3 of these people studied with a very famous teacher, and quit frankly they were totally dumbfounded that they didn't advance. The truth was they didn't play very well.
You will never get these years back and you invest a large some of money, really think your plan through. I guess what I'm trying to say is this, You might become an excellent clarinetist and musician that you have control over. What you don't have control over is making a living at it. The only people that will whole heartedly encourage you to go into clarinet performance are clarinet teachers in university. I've heard almost as many stories regarding college "recruiting" as I've heard about military music recruiting. Back in 1979 recruiters were letting some marginal musicians into the "regular" army band field, not special bands, it seems that when someone went to the "School of Music " and couldn't make it through playing, they were reassigned to the "needs" of the Army. Be very careful who you listen to at this juncture in your life, and ask yourself "what's in it for the person that's telling me this"
Tom Puwalski, Leblanc clarinet and Rico artist,Former clarinet soloist with The U.S. Army Field Band, clarinetist with The Atonement, and Author of "The Clarinetists Guide to Klezmer"
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GBK
Date: 2010-08-03 03:14
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> I heard several masterclass performers at ClarFest of which
> maybe 1 will ever get a full time playing job - and maybe
> not......
That estimate might actually be overgenerous. ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
...GBK
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bassie
Date: 2010-08-03 08:41
Where I went, everything was a B.A., including all the sciences. I honestly can't see this being an issue. Either it's a Bachelors' degree, or it isn't.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kimber
Date: 2010-08-03 11:16
I started years ago as a double major in music ed and a healthcare field...ended up dropping the music to just a minor and keeping with healthcare major. Never been without a job in my field and continue to play in community band with a few students on the side. Worked perfectly for me.
The music dept ran in their own little world...everyone always seemed astonished that someone would want to take classes outside the music building. The hardest part of the music major/minor was all the required recitals/concerts to attend each semester. They were usually 1-2 hrs on weeknights and always coincided with a major exam or project in my non-music classes!
One thing to consider - what type of job will you be applying for in the future, since more and more businesses will use computerized 'screening' of applications - if you want an actuarial job - the computer will be programmed for BA/BS or whatever, not BM. A music position should accept all three as all are common across the country.
Post Edited (2010-08-03 12:33)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: suavkue
Date: 2010-08-03 13:47
Thanks everyone!
I was looking over my degree plan today and something makes me think that I might end up switching to a music minor if by the time I end my sophomore year that I figure out that things are not working out too well. Honestly, I haven't been reliant on others' advice to choose my major: it was basically:
1) I'm not going to do Music Ed. because I'm not a great teacher (plus it's 5 years at the university);
2) Am I really going to make a living off of composition?;
which therefore led to my choice of doing performance. (I was considering musicology/theory, but those are even harder with which to get a job.)
The performance classes at the university I attend should not be a problem since the concerts that music majors attend are scheduled at 10:00 A.M.
Basically, though, if I do decide to switch to a B.S., there's no way to tell right now that I will actually be able to meet the requirements of it since I'm also dealing with the Honors Program requirements (which always count toward GEs, but it depends on which types of classes are actually available). I do get priority registration, so I will get the classes for which I register each semester. Plus I am (and will most likely be) taking summer classes at a community college in order to stay on track with finishing those GEs (which, whether they are available next year, like every class, varies).
However, I feel that I won't know how meeting all of these requirements will actually work until I actually get into the university. I have a head start on both major programs because of my AP credits (and on whether I'll actually be able to test out of 3 semesters of written and aural theory), but right now, I admittedly don't know too much of what's actually ahead. As prepared as I may be, trying to plan out each semester while trying to meet the requirements, I don't know right now.
Thank you all for your advice.
-----
My current equipment:
Ridenour Lyrique 576BC, Rico Reserve 4, Ridenour Hand Finished Mouthpiece, Luyben Ligature
Post Edited (2010-08-03 13:49)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: EEBaum
Date: 2010-08-03 16:00
kimber:
I don't buy that about computer screening of resumes. Highly speculative. I'm not saying that it won't happen, but I'd hardly use "someone might program a resume screening computer badly" as a reason to choose one degree over another.
suavkue:
In my humble opinion, drop the honors program. Unless you find it providing you something really personally fulfilling, honors programs mean nothing in college. A PhD, that's an honors program. Or a harder major, or an awesome minor. Graduate with a BS in an honors program, and you have a BS and a pretty ribbon. Nobody but Aunt Mildred will be interested in the ribbon, and they'll only be passingly interested in the BS compared to what you learned from it.
If you're going into any music and you have even the slightest bit of "because it'll get me a job" in your head, purge that thought immediately. Music is something to go into because you can't not do it. Granted, you might find out that that's the case along the way.
It's easier to get a job in musicology/theory than in performance. Colleges will always have a handful of musicology and theory professors.
A music minor might not be a bad course of action. I started that way, and got so deep into it that I found myself compelled to upgrade it to a major later on.
Really, I'd spend my first year or so of college keeping my options as open as possible and taking the widest variety of classes possible. You might find another major that you like even more and had never even considered. College isn't a race, and I've known far too many people who were very high achievers (valedictorians, etc) and went through college with a singular goal, aiming for some major they'd been aspiring to since middle school, discovering after graduating that they hated it, and making a complete switch to a different career. Stressed-out biochemist at a top university, now a well-adjusted accountant. Chemistry and physics whiz with sights set on setting foot on Mars, now teaching high school. Microbiologist looking for a cure for TB, now a counselor. Computer scientist at the top of his class, now leading guerilla musical expeditions in urban settings and selling t-shirts at Clarinetfest. OK, that last fool took his time.
It will all likely be very different than you expect. For a music major especially, the requirements tend to feel like "oh yeah, I also take some of these classes while I'm here."
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: gsurosey
Date: 2010-08-13 23:32
Hi suavkue!
I have a BS (Accounting) and a BA (Music), but took a strange road there (at least to me). I completed my BS in 5 years (but the 5th year was because I failed a class that was only offered in the spring). During that time I was going to double major, but never did. I was a varsty athlete (for the first 2 years) ,I had a job, and the Accounting major was around 70 someodd credits. So, my primary major was a lot of requirements and a lot of work. So, I canned the idea of a double major, but kept doing music stuff because I felt like it.
I took all of the required theory and theory skills-related classes (yes, I'm a self-proclaimed theory geek). I then went to another school to pursue an MBA, but I hated it and dropped it after a year. During that year (year 6 of college), I kept up with my music through lessons and ensemble work and decided to finish the music degree there. It took me a year and I graduated at the end of college year 7.
Because of some medical issues, all that got me was no job and a lot of school debt (I'm on social security disability and I haven't hit 30 yet).
Other than I went about stuff in a strange way, my point is that, like others have said, things can change and it's hard to map everything out into the future until you figure some things out. But, college can be fun, so enjoy yourself!
----------
Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: plclemo
Date: 2010-08-14 02:01
With a B.S. in Mathematics you can get a GREAT JOB working for the US Government Department of Defense (no not enlisting in the services, but as a civilian). My degree is in Electrical Engineering but I worked for the DOD with all mathematicians. I am only a few credits shy of an M.S. in Applied Mathematics.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
