 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: M09
Date: 2010-07-29 11:17
Hello,
I am afraid I am one of those people that reads the forums regularly, learns alot, and almost never posts! (I don't feel I ever have anything of value to add) So I hope you lovely people don't mind me asking for some advice...
I have a secondary clarinet that currently has leather pads, the clarinet and most of its pads are fairly old so I have taken it to be 'looked over' (with second opinion) and have been given quite varied advice (I made sure no one was under the impression I was about to pay them for lots of work).
One tech demonstrated a few leaks with a leak light and told me that the pads were old and needing replacing, not just adjusting. He felt that all the pads should be replaced. I had said at the beginning I could only afford a few minor tweeks and in the end he said minor tweeks were not worth it without a repad so I was better to put up with it how it was and not pay him anything (which made me feel his repad advice was unlikely to be a money grabbing exercise) BUT....
This conflicts with the other advice I have been given that while the pads are old, they are still usable... (both sources have years of experience and have managed to run sucessful businesses all that time)
I now do not know what to do and do not have access to another tech. The pads look old, some look a bit patchy and worn, they look to be of varying age and are clearly not a 'set' of 'matching' ones, it is somewhat resistant (I have played worse), however I can play a full range of notes.
Can anyone give me some advice on how to judge the condition of the pads myself? Obviously as I am not a tech this would be a novice judgement, but I really need something to help inform my decision.
Any help would be great (<--- imagine me smiling sweetly and fluttering my eyelashes...)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-07-29 15:25
Wait for a good tech to respond (ie Chris P) but I think the idea put forth is that left un-maintained (or even played on) the leather will become brittle and unable to conform to the tone holes. If you are in a financial bind, you may be able to try "maintanance" to see if you can revive them a bit. A leather pad installer told me that every month you should apply some "Old English" furniture polish to keep them up. You do this by getting a thin piece of paper (not much wider than a pad) just ever so damp with the "Old English" and then make one pass under each pad (while the paper is slightly damp.......this requires many re-dampings and several pieces of paper). Perhaps you may be able to breathe some life back into your old pads this way.
Of course, as long as the pads seal well enough, you can use them. That is, do a suction test (quickest, most sure way to know where you stand). Seal one end of the a joint with the palm of your hand; place the fingers of the other over their respective holes; place lips over open end and suck in (in little spurts). There should be air retained in there for a moment at least (try this with a bottle and you'l know what I mean). If it doesn't hold any air at all, the leaks are substantial enough to warrant repair.
I sympathize with a repadding delema, however. "a chain is only as strong as its weakest link." You could change all but one old pad and STILL have a leak with that one pad. It DOES pay to have all redone at once.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: M09
Date: 2010-07-29 17:17
Thanks for your reply Paul.
I think it is probably going to come down to that issue of is the leather too dry/hard/brittle/porus or not.
I do know that there are leaks (tested by suction and leak light). Having looked at tech use a leak light, I have seen that the light comes out in one place from under the pad, rather than from multiple places all around the edge. I don't know if that means anything.
Getting a re pad is not impossible financially, I was just a bit naughty when I spoke to the tech and gave the impression it was - I wanted to know about necessary, rather than preferable work that needed doing
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-07-30 13:56
>>Having looked at tech use a leak light, I have seen that the light comes out in one place from under the pad, rather than from multiple places all around the edge. I don't know if that means anything.
>>
I think you're getting so few responses because, without seeing the pads and the leak test, we can't guess whether you've got worn out pads with bad leaks or slightly dry pads with treatable leaks -- or some of each.
If the pad is just a bit dry, sometimes more dry on one side than another, then it might respond well to the furniture polish treatment. It's also possible the leaky pads weren't installed right in the first place. Have you had this clarinet since it was new? If you bought the clarinet used, maybe it ended up for sale because some do-it-yourselfer tried replacing pads and got a bad result. Maybe those pads just need a bit of re-seating instead of replacement, although that might not save you much money, because most of the cost of replacing pads is in the labor involved in seating them properly, not in the pads themselves.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: M09
Date: 2010-07-30 17:11
Thanks Lelia.
I have not had it since new, it is a good 30 or 40 years old but I do intend to have for some time and play it, although on a very much hobby basis. Is there any info or pictures I could give that would be useful?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-07-30 20:14
Condition can't really be determined without seeing it in person. I can only assume as it has been bought used and has been patched up over time that it could probably do with a complete overhaul to make it as good as new.
Leather pads do become porous and the leather becomes dry and brittle over time, and leather pads that haven't been treated with some kind of waterproofing will have absorbed water and then dried out making them both hard and porous.
What make and model clarinet is it? If you can post some photos that could be of some help to assess the general condition, but if the pads are pretty far gone (dried up, hard and porous) then doing the minimum to get it working won't make much of a difference if the majority of the pads need replacing as they're the biggest problem.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: M09
Date: 2010-07-30 20:43
Thanks Chris, it sounds like a repad might be the way forward then. I have only just realised I have failed to point out it is a Bundy bass (sorry), used, not much info on the history but I am guessing it is unlikely to have been maintained over the last few years. I have gently pressed on the pads today and some do give an audible 'crackle' which I imagine could be the leather being hard and dry. The thing that has confused me is that while many look worn and I know there are leaks, I can play the full the range - I promise this is not due to my skill!
If I can post a couple of pictures in the next day or two I will.
Thanks for everyone for taking time to reply and give me advice.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2010-07-30 21:28
Use the "leather care" products to soften and preserve leather pads. Do not use any furniture polish!!! You do not want wax etc. or on your leather pads.
Apply oil (like Kiwi "NeatsFoot oil" or a good quality wax free leather moisturizer) liberally and allow soaking into leather for an hour. Clean the pads from the access oil/moisturizer.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-07-30 21:35
I think Bundy basses may use sax pads in the large pad cups like Selmer (Paris) basses. As for using a leak light - I do use them on basses as the thickness of the body wall is thin in relation to the diameter of the toneholes, though I use feeler gauges on smaller clarinets (altos upwards).
A full overhaul on any bass will be expensive (often more than you originally paid for it), though it will still be far less than buying a new bass of the same type - so don't let the 'I paid less than that for it' thing cloud your judgement - you will be insuring it for the retail price of a new bass of the same type anyway.
I tried a Bundy bass recently and although it was a former school instrument, it played very well considering. The owner bought it for £500 which isn't too bad a price for a Bundy bass, and far less than an equivalent new bass.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2010-07-31 13:22
"The thing that has confused me is that while many look worn and I know there are leaks, I can play the full the range - I promise this is not due to my skill!"
You said that it was resistant to play. That is a symptom of leaks. Leaks are a symptom of many possible causes, including 'dead' pads. It's impossibly to tell without expert eyes actually seeing it, whether this is the cause of the leaks.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2010-07-31 13:53
Vytas wrote:
"Use the "leather care" products to soften and preserve leather pads. Do not use any furniture polish!!! You do not want wax etc. or on your leather pads.
Apply oil (like Kiwi "NeatsFoot oil" or a good quality wax free leather moisturizer) liberally and allow soaking into leather for an hour. Clean the pads from the access oil/moisturizer. "
Older leather pads tend to be porous and absorb moisture. They may well absorb saliva. Saliva attacks leather, rotting it. Rotted leather cannot be restored.
Saliva contains minerals (You see them as a hard, off-white deposit on mouthpieces that are are not regularly cleaned.) These minerals accumulating in pad leather makes the leather hard and brittle. Nothing restores it from that state.
Advertising claims that Neatsfoot oil preserves leather. However stock whip makers specifically recommend not using it, because longer term it weakens the leather. And surely stock whips, like sax pads, are items where leather needs to be at its strong and supple best.
However the following "characteristics" are worth noting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neatsfoot_oil#Characteristics
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