 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Loliver
Date: 2010-07-28 11:36
I was just wondering if it was worth repairing my Buffet E13 clarinet, as it has cracked at the top of the bottom joint, where the metal ring is. Its just that it is only 4 years old, and a new crack has appeared there every year since, and so every year it has to get repaired again. One of the cracks does go into the top hole, but it doesn't appear to affect the sound.
Also, the fact that last year the repair involved an Epoxy resin to try to seal the area has clearly failed, and the cracking is so bad, that the silver ring at the top of the moves several milimetres away from the wood, effectively making the clarinet 2-3mm longer, making it a nightmare to tune.
In short, should I just stop throwing money at it and buy a new one (not a Buffet, never again!), or should i persist, even though the repair bills are now at around 50-60% of what I paid for it new?
I don't have anything against Buffet, my Oboe is a Buffet, but my E13 is awful, and the pads had to be replaced within around 2 months of me getting it. I would like some advice farily quickly, as I am going to Uni in September, and so don't have much time to sort it out, as I have a job all through August.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2010-07-28 11:47
Consider having your tech order a lower joint for the instrument, and then transferring your keys to the new joint. Sometimes, you just get a bad piece of wood, and there isn't much you can do about it.
I assume that you take the normal precautions about temperature and humidity and that youtake proper care of the clarinet. If not, it doesn't matter what cvlarinet you get,you may have similar problems.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-07-28 12:04
I can't exactly understand why the ring has to be 2mm-3mm out. This sounds like something that should and can be fixed. I'm not sure how the cracks were glued with epoxy, but generally gluing with super glue is good so the glue gets all the way to the bottom of the crack. This is very hard if not impossible with epoxy. Mixing the glue with something (e.g. wood dust) will make it not penetrate to the bottom too. This has to be added only at the top, if interested, for cosmetic reasons.
I can't imagine filling several cracks as you described (even if some work is needed to the tone hole and fitting the metal ring properly) would get anywhere near 50%+ of the price of a new E13. But maybe best to give the benefit of the doubt because it's unclear what other work was done (though e.g. replacing some pads after two months should definitely be done for free under warrenty?).
As far as "not a Buffet, never again!" obviously you had bad experience but that is just a coincidence really. You will find people claiming any company is worst for cracking. Some say Buffet while some swear Selmers crack by far more. I've heard from one repairer who said over 50% of cracked clarinets he sees are Yamaha while I don't remember seeing even one Yamaha with a crack yet. etc. etc.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Loliver
Date: 2010-07-28 12:14
In referral to how the cracks were glued with Epoxy, I meant that after they had glued the cracks, they treated the inside around the joint with Epoxy, to prevent moisture absorbtion.
The main problem is that I get no solid advice from people. My teacher just keeps saying to get it repaired, the other Clarinet player at my Orchestra keeps saying that I should file a complaint towards the seller, as they are also the people who keep repairing it. I have let several other people look at it, and they all say that there is something intrinsicly wrong with it, and that they are amazed at how it cracks so easily.
I forgot to mention that after around one month, the thumb rest fell off. No sudden force or anything, was playing a piece, and both the screws just snapped, another problem that is unheard of by my Teacher, who used to own an E13 and has around a dozen pupils with an E13, and from the other Clarinetists I know.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Loliver
Date: 2010-07-28 12:15
And the ring being 2-3mm out is due to the expansion of the wood, forcing the metal ring up, away from the main body of the Clarinet, so that it will eventually fall off (again).
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GLHopkins
Date: 2010-07-28 13:56
I'd take it back where you bought it and have it repaired. Talk to the owner and get them to order you a new lower joint. I'd also get them to sell you the new joint at his cost plus shipping plus the cost of transferring keys since you've had nothing but trouble with since you bought it from them. If he refuses email me, and I'll see what I can do to help you out.
Post Edited (2010-07-28 18:06)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Loliver
Date: 2010-07-28 14:36
Welcome to the UK- where all musical instruments are inordinatly expensive! When I bought my E13, typical price was around £750-800, now you cant get one less than £1000 due to the awful exchange rate between pound and Euro, Dollar and Yen. Thats the primary reason I don't want to buy another Bb clarinet, as I was going to buy an Eb or an A Clarinet, but now, looks like I can't.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-07-28 18:13
This sounds unusual to me to have a crack on that part of the instrument but I'm sure it happens. Sounds to me like the ring may never tight enough. The crack should probably be pinned along with using the glue to seal any leak. The tone hole could easily be replaced or filled too buy a competent repair tech. Remember, the E13 is not Buffets professional clarinet. It sounds to me from what you say about the pads and the thumb rest that the clarinet was stored in a very dry place perhaps for a long time and that the wood, certainly the pads, dried out and became rotten. The problem may not be caused by Buffet at all but rather the store or middle man, before the store received it. I've never heard of that happening in two months. My suggestion is after having it pinned that you, or the tech, give it a good oiling and then make sure you keep it in a humidity controlled environment and keep dampits in the case during the winter. The crack should have been fixed right the first time and the ring should be very tight to prevent the wood from expanding on that part of the instrument. That's the reason for the ring being there in the first place. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ian White
Date: 2010-07-28 20:35
I agree that a new lower joint would be the best option but at about £200 plus the cost of transferring & fitting the keys it isn't cheap. I imagine that after 4 years there is no hope of getting Buffet or the original seller to meet this cost. I feel that as there have been numerous attempts to seal the crack with epoxy that any other attempt at gluing with superglue will fail also. A socket replacement is another possibility which will be cheaper than a new joint.
Ian
www.ianwhiteww.co.uk
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-07-28 20:37
There's no real need to pin a clarinet that's split at the middle socket as the socket ring will hold things tight when properly fitted and the crack won't spread any further than the C/G tonehole. This kind of crack is common if the humidity levels are low and the socket ring is loose - and also if the mid tenon has a degree of wobble to it as that will put stress on the unsupported socket.
It can be glued back together by letting superglue wick into the crack (though it will get in there better if the socket is expanded slightly enough to open the crack up, and then left to close under the natural tension of the wood. The tonehole can then either be tidied up (removing the excess glue) and levelled, or if the tonehole has lost some splnters of wood that can't be filled easily, it can be bushed with plastic or ebonite and recut (which will be expensive).
There's hardly any room in the body between the base of the socket and the C/G tonehole to fit a pin, but once the socket ring has been refitted so it's a very tight fit (best done while humidity levels are low) this will prevent it opening up as it'll all be held tight like a flush band. The inside of the socket may need opening up if the diameter has been reduced and the tenon rings bind, but if the tenon rocks in the socket it may not need that doing to it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BartHx
Date: 2010-07-30 16:07
The best solution would be a new lower joint. However, if money is a problem, consider getting it banded and the tenon ring properly refitted. Then make sure you control the humidity in the case. I have a Selmer series 10 that I got a great deal on because it had a couple of similar small cracks into tone holes in the same location. I refit the tenon ring. Then I took a small pill bottle and drilled some small holes around the rim (I use four) just below the edge of the cap. I put a DAMP sponge in the bottle and put the bottle in the case. It did not take long for the cracks to close. I use it regularly, have never had a problem with it, and you have to really look closely to even find the cracks now. A leak test indicates that the cracks have completely closed. I keep a pill bottle in every case.
Control the humidity and be aware that most tenon rings have a very slight taper giving them a right way and a wrong way to try to put them back on. It sounds like your tenon ring may be wrong way around.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-07-30 20:23
There's no need for a new lower joint as this is a fairly easy thing to fix (and won't need banded as that will only weaken the entire socket).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-07-31 06:51
I agree with Chris.
Ian White wrote:
>> I feel that as there have been numerous attempts to seal the crack with epoxy that any other attempt at gluing with superglue will fail also. <<
I'm not sure about that. It's not possible to know if the repairs were done right. The condition sounds very bad now and from the condition of the metal ring sticking out etc. sounds like something was repaired terribly wrong. This has been through a lot, so I wouldn't be affraid to really dig into it i.e. possibly significantly enlarge the cracks and remove the old glue with a dental micromotor and sort of rebuilding these areas. A bit similar idea to how dentists do some things. Then fitting the metal ring again. This should cost much less than replacing the joint. The owner might even be lucky and a repairer would do this for a significant discount knowing the hassle he already went thourgh with this clarinet.
Post Edited (2010-07-31 10:46)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: skygardener
Date: 2010-07-31 10:28
Question for Loliver-
Have you been taking it to the same repair place every time?? It sounds like they don't know what they are doing.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2010-07-31 13:11
I agree with Chris, Clarnibass, and Skygardener.
Something is simply not being right. Wood expansion does not push a secure ring off. And a good repair of anything does not need repeat visits back.
The worst that can happen is that you need a n expert to graft a replacement socket to the clarinet.
BTW, some technicians will repad an instrument when it does not need it, just for work to do.
On the other hand..... A few decades ago, Buffet used pads that were really superior to most others. Recently they have been using pads with extra thin, extra brittle membranes, which split and cut very easily. It is quite conceivable that some of them start failing within months, and if this is the case, then it would be quite prudent to replace them all. As somebody suggested, this really should be done under guarantee. (One reason I do not sell new instruments)
Regarding the thumb rest screws. These screws are of a copper alloy, not steel, and if they are over-tightened then the heads can quite easily break off. It sounds as if they were almost at the point of breaking when installed, and then some slight expansion of the timber applied enough additional tension to tip the balance and break them. The fact that the screws broke rather than ripping out of the timber suggests that it is a sound piece of timber.
IMO Buffet has actually become quite complacent re standards in recent years. Another issue is their non-attending to the issue of the far-too-thick-for-its-overshort-length, operating-against-timber, F#/C# spring, which contributes a "sluggish" feel.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-07-31 13:30
They should've just stuck to using the flat spring under the RH F#/C# touch as that could at least be balanced better. Funny that so many other makes have managed to fit a needle spring in the lower F#/C# pillar and get it to work well, yet Buffet still insist in using this method.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Loliver
Date: 2010-07-31 19:14
To skygardener-
Yes, I have taken it back to the same place every time, because that is the place that everyone recommends! I just seem to get a raw deal whenever my clarinet is taken in, and the shop is orniodinately expensive, but thats because there is no one else who can do the work within a 50 or 60 mile radius of where I live. Its also frustrating as it takes like 1.5 hours to get there, and I swear, aesthetically, it comes back much worse than it went, i.e cracked plating on keys, globs of glue on back of clarinet, scratches on the actual wood....
Yes, it doesn't hurt the sound, but it honestly doesn't make me want to go back there if it keeps happening. I mean, when it comes to selling instruments, you can't sell it on it's sound, you have to sell it on its appearence, which mine frankly looks like it's been attacked by small animals.
This time, if I do take it back to the same place, I will take many, MANY, photos of it, and if something is wrong, I will file a complaint, because frankly, its a bit rubbish I feel, and I only wish I could name the place, but alas, I cant, due to forum rules...
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-08-01 04:14
OK that sounds even worse than it seemed before. In that case, I guess you can try bringing there again and try to convince them to fix all the problems and the ones they added, without charing. But honestly it just doesn't seem like they can repair it so If I were you I'd rather not bring it there again and find someone else. I would absolutely drive (or train? bus?) the 50 miles to someone very good if you know one. Maybe consider shipping (insured of course!).
Two repairers in UK that I've heard many good things about are Stephen Howard (http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk) and Chris P who posted in this thread. I haven't actually seen work by either but I've met Steve and spoke a lot with him. Chris seems very reliable from what he writes on this and other forums. Maybe Chris can recommend someone good he knows who is closer to where you are.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Loliver
Date: 2010-09-16 16:22
Problem Solved!
I bought a new clarinet- a Yamaha Custom YCL-CSV, much better than my E13. I bought it from the same shop as my E13 (yay part exchange). What I did find weird was that I tried 4 instruments, and the worst one was the R13, which is similar to the R13.
Anyway...its awesome! I particularly like how they don't stain the wood, so it has a nice colour.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
