 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Lisa Chien
Date: 2000-12-22 14:42
I have recently tried the Selmer Signature at a New York Woodwinds store and found its intonation, tuning and sound to be fantastic.
Does Selmer intend to make one out of a material similar to the Buffet Greenline?
My playing habits are such that I like to leave my Buffet R13 Greenline on a stand in my house, play it when I want to through the course of the day and just swab it. I would NEVER consider doing the same with a wooden clarinet. But the Signature was so beautiful that I would love one made out of a similar material as the Greenline. Any clues to Selmer's plans would be greatly appreciated.
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Author: javier garcia
Date: 2000-12-22 15:02
Why don't you try direct with Selmer:
Selmer et Cia
18 rue La Fontaine au Roi
75011 Paris
France
phone: 33-1-49238740
fax: 33-1-43572495
website: http://www.selmer.com
good luck!
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2000-12-22 15:39
Lisa -
If Selmer makes a "Greenline Signature," they certainly won't use that word, which is a Buffet trademark.
Buffet advertises that they worked for years on the Greenline material. Also, billets of wood (and Greenline material) are turned on automated lathes, and bores and tone holes are cut by automated drills. Francois Kloc says that Buffet had to design new automated tools to handle the Greenline material.
Thus Selmer couldn't just start making the Signature out of a Greenline-type material. It would be a significant investment and take several years to do.
I've read that Buffet had trouble with the top tenons on the upper joint cracking on the early Greenlines and have had to make changes in the material or design to eliminate this. It's not as easy as it might seem.
The Selmer Signature has thinner walls than Buffet models. (That's why they have a raised wood ring around the left ring finger hole.) That could be a significant problem if and when they try to change materials.
Finally, Tom Ridenour is a believer in wood, and he was an important influence on the design of the Signature.
A non-wood Signature (my own preference would be silver) would be great, but I wouldn't expect it any time soon.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2000-12-23 08:37
Ken
I recall that some carbon fibre is used in the Greenlines. Is that used to reinforce the fragile tenons. Just wondering.
If it is all that automated they should be as cheap as the student Yamahas, which have similar mechanical precision in the manufacture. Is the high price almost ALL for research & development, or is it just to imply quality.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2000-12-23 14:50
Gordon,
The carbon is part of the material - it isn't put in any particular place.
The tooling had to be completely new, since the material characteristics (hardness, abrasiveness, etc.) was not compatible with the wood turning tooling already in place (and totally amortized).
The Greenlines are the same price as the wood clarinets -I'm a little confused about your "higher price" statement. Perhaps in NZ they're charging a premium? In the US they're not - but they do make less on the Greenlines currently.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2000-12-24 12:53
What I was getting at, is how come it costs so much more to make a pro clarinet with automated production than it does to make a student one that is precisely made (yamaha being the example), especially now that with CNC machines undercutting toneholes and bore idiosyncrasies should all be possible within minutes. I doubt that the timber or the greenline composite costs a thousand dollars? I once put it down to all the discarding of machined timber that proved unsuitable because of flaws or splits. I suppose the retooling and amortization has to explain it. I look forward to pro instruments in the future at half the price they are now.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2000-12-24 14:24
Gordon,
That's the right question. The CNC et al. gets a clarinet in reasonable good shape very quickly so that it shouldn't take a craftsman a day or two to get it set up.
I do expect that a pro level has been set up well, but in many cases they aren't. Recently a young woman asked be to look at her brand new clarinet, a very reputable brand and model, purchased from a major distributor. Even I could tell immediately that the springs were unbalanced: All firm or all soft I could imagine, but this one varied from key to key in a haphazard way. I told her to send it back and have it regulated at least so the resistance was equal, and then she could get the "fine tuning" done locally. It's a shame that anyone would send a clarinet out in this condition! We're paying a thousand or so more for the professional attention given to the pro instruments (or so it would seem, since the material cost isn't so much more than the student level - I'll be fair and say that the material & RD costs will add $500 to the instrument - that leaves $1000 for "personal attention" and profit) - what does that buy us? It doesn't seem like a lot ...
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2000-12-25 10:51
I am so relieved to find I am not the only one thinking along these lines. One would think that the makers of pro instruments would be competing for flawlessness in design and manufacture. I suppose they get away with less than that because there are too few people who notice the sub-standard quality control.
It is interesting that I have not noticed this lack of staqndards in pro flutes - at least in the ones I see most - Muramatsu & Sankyo.
Perhaps forums such as these will eventually rescue the situation. Are these forums actually read by manufacturers?
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2000-12-26 15:15
Gordon and Mark -
I don't think the Greenline has carbon fiber throughout, or any at all, at least in the original formula, which I have read was grenadilla dust bound with a type of epoxy. They may have added some to deal with the cracking problem, but this is pure speculation.
The only Buffet model I have seen advertised as using carbon fiber reinformcement is the Elite, which substitutes the material for metal rings on the barrel, the top of the lower joint and the bell.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2000-12-26 20:39
Scientific American, March 1998, p20:
"These instruments [the Greenline] are made of M'Pingo sawdust and a patented mixture of carbon fiber and epoxy glue that is heat-treated and placed in a press to give it the density of whole wood."
8^)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2000-12-27 11:27
Also see B&H (Buffet) web site, http://www.boosey.com
especially:
http://www.boosey.com/Instruments/Buffet/FrameBuffet.htm
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