 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-07-21 17:30
Because the thinner the springs are at the ends where they ride in the little saddles on the keys, the less friction they create and the more smoothly the keys move. Also, that makes the springs 'progressive' in their spring rate (effectively softer at the very tip and stiffer towards the middle) which also improves the feel of the key action.
Yes, they are sharp! If you work on clarinets long enough, you get used to being jabbed frequently...............
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-07-21 17:31
So they can get you when you take a key off. You knew the answer before you asked. The sharp springs also serve to keep the elephants away. I haven't seen an elephant in my house since I bought a good clarinet with sharp springs. ESP
http://eddiesclarinet.com
PS. You shouldn't curse on this bboard, there may be kids reading it. 
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2010-07-21 19:04)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-07-21 17:41
Just be glad the needle springs being made today aren't as sharp as those on older instruments.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ian White
Date: 2010-07-21 19:26
.....& the modern ones aren't as springy as the old ones either. Unless you know a source that I don't know of Chris.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-07-21 19:31
Modern ones are indeed less tensile. I just serviced my old Selmer CT (although not mine anymore) and the springs on that were lethal - they were blue tempered sewing needles.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: dansil
Date: 2010-07-22 03:15
It would be quick and easy to solder a tiny blob of solder onto the very tip of each and every needle spring. Removal would be equally quick and the blob of solder would not rust, nor would the tip of the needle. Goodbye needlestick injuries!
a family doctor in Castlemaine, rural Victoria, Australia for the past 30+ years, also a plucked string musician (mandolin, classical guitar) for far too long before discovering the clarinet - what a missed opportunity!
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2010-07-22 05:26
"Why do the springs on better clarinets have to be so %$#@&* sharp?"
Needle springs were not always sharp. However, many years ago, a large company that produced bandages purchased a major spring manufacturer. Within months of changing the design to have the sharper tip, their bandage sales went up 37% and have not gone down since!!
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2010-07-22 07:17
I disagree with David re the design of springs.
"Also, that makes the springs 'progressive' in their spring rate (effectively softer at the very tip and stiffer towards the middle) which also improves the feel of the key action."
Only the last few mm are tapered. There is almost no bending effect at this end of a cantilevered spring. (It reduces evenly over the length of the spring.) So the small amount of taper has pretty well no effect on the spring rate.
"Because the thinner the springs are at the ends where they ride in the little saddles on the keys, the less friction they create and the more smoothly the keys move."
If cradles are well designed, then there is no rubbing action between the spring and cradle, only a rolling action, even with larger diameter springs, so friction is not an issue.
My mind goes to the very highest quality flutes, with extremely light spring action, with non-tapered springs. So the taper is not relevant, providing cradles are properly designed.
I think these springs are tapered to a very sharp point for one reason only... They are bought from a factory that makes needles. Hence the name "needle springs"
With proper design, just as good a spring action can be achieved with (high quality) stainless steel that has no taper. Unfortunately crappy-alloy stainless steel, with poorly designed cradles has been used on crappy student flutes and given non-tapered stainless steel a poor name.
That too-thick-for-its-length, stiff (but tapered), hence sluggish-action spring on pro Buffet clarinets for the F#/C# key are a constant reminder that even top manufacturers give very little attention to good spring design.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-07-22 07:56
> I think these springs are tapered to a very sharp point for one reason
> only... They are bought from a factory that makes needles. Hence the name
> "needle springs"
Needles are - in their commercial form - unsuitable for springs, as the steel is much too brittle and breaks very easily. (older springs were more durable and bendable, maybe it's a "commercial property" of newer needles, or the manufacturing has changed over time)
Tempering needles is not technically difficult, but it requires some routine to catch the "just right" moment. But in a pinch, needles still can be used for springs.
--
Ben
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2010-07-22 09:15
I did not mean that they were needles. They are basically a needle shape. Basically the same steel as a needle, but not plated. But with more tempering in the heat treatment in order to make them bendable without breaking.
Cheapest source with huge mass production.... Needle factory.
(I believe this extra tempering has been poorly done in recent years, enabling them to break more easily than springs of old.)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-07-22 10:02
When servicing instruments to avoid getting stabbed, I remove all the needle springs whenever I can. It makes polishing up the pillars and cleaning instrument bodies much easier and less risky.
Once removed, I keep them in their relative order by sticking them in a wine cork so they don't get mixed up (likewise with point screws).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-07-22 14:50
>>I did not mean that they were needles. They are basically a needle shape.>>
But some of them are indeed sewing needles. I know because, about five years ago, a shipment of blued steel springs in assorted sizes I ordered from Ferree's contained two needles that hadn't been clipped and flattened at the larger ends. They still had their eyes. After that eye-opener, I tried buying some needles and blueing them myself, but getting the temperature and the timing just right is such a pain that I'd rather keep on ordering from Ferree's. There's not nearly enough difference in price to make clipping, flattening ends and blueing my own worthwhile -- and most of the needles in fabric shops are stainless steel, which won't blue.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
Post Edited (2010-07-22 14:51)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-07-22 15:03
I thought all springs have to be clipped and flattened - the ones I've been using have all been of a specific length so they have to be clipped to the correct length and the end flattened.
When blueing, you'll probably have to temper them in a kiln set to the right temperature rather than with a flame to get them to temper uniformly.
I can only assume the ones being made now haven't been hardened but have only been blued which is why they don't have the tensile strength.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2010-07-22 15:13
Using needles for instrument springs was a "natural" adaptation back when. Finished needles are always nickel plated and if not properly baked to remove hydrogen embritlement can be more brittle than they should be. Left "blued" without plating there is no chance of H2 embrittlement. Black finish springs represent a lower quality spring compared to blued. The "feel" of needle type springs on instruments is largely controlled by their diameter.....and , of course, length. ( Having one end pointed is a clue to flatten the other end.....duh.)
Caution: When shortening be extremely careful....point the end to be cut into a trash can and wear glasses.
Bob Draznik
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-07-22 15:53
>> Caution: When shortening be extremely careful....point the end to be cut into a trash can and wear glasses. <<
Yes, or use the excellent special pliers which hold both sides after the spring is cut.
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Author: Mark Charette ★2017
Date: 2010-07-22 16:38
clarnibass wrote:
> >> Caution: When shortening be extremely careful....point the
> end to be cut into a trash can and wear glasses. <<
>
> Yes, or use
Yes, AND use ...
Never trust your eyesight to a piece of machinery working perfectly every time.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2010-07-22 22:21
I point them to something soft, impact absorbing, such as my jeans-covered leg. That kills the flight of the launched piece that is cut off. I am more concerned about the backlash of the firing pushing the sharp end into my finger.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2010-07-22 22:44
Chris wrote, "I can only assume the ones being made now haven't been hardened but have only been blued which is why they don't have the tensile strength."
My problem with them is that they are too brittle, which means they were indeed hardened, but insufficiently tempered.
There's a fine line between getting steel to have a high elastic limit but not be brittle, which are the demands placed on instrument springs.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2010-07-23 01:23
If you want a good "springy" metal for key springs, I recommend safety pins. They are made to bend back and forth. I was successful once or twice using them on keys, but I could not find a good variety of sizes to fit most clarinets.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2010-07-23 02:51
The old safety pins would be OK, but any I have bought in the last decade or so have been far too bendy. Made in China?
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-07-23 06:45
Spring steel wire (used for eg model aircrafts) would excellent, but it comes only in limited thicknesses. And that stuff is so hard that it's near impossible to flatten on one end.
--
Ben
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Author: stebinus2
Date: 2010-07-23 07:39
When cutting you can alternately wrap them and your nippers in a rag or hankie to keep the pieces from flying.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2010-07-23 08:30
"The old safety pins would be OK, but any I have bought in the last decade or so have been far too bendy. Made in China?"
If I did this, I would use the pins from S.Korea. As with most metal products from S.Korea, they are just right. However, there are never the variety of sizes that you need for instruments.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-07-23 11:23
There many safe ways to cut the springs with regular cutters. I hold the upper part somehow and point the other part to the trash, actually inside the trash, which is usually filled with papers and all sorts of stuff that would prevent it from flying back. At least I did this until I bought the special pliers which are just so much more comfortable than any other method http://www.votawtool.com/zcom.asp?pg=products&specific=jqephof8
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2010-07-24 13:36
Actually, most often I cut through them with a miniature cut-off wheel in my dental micromotor handpiece, while temporarily mounted (to ascertain required length) in the post. Then I remove from the post to hammer the flat on the end. So no projectile spring stumps.
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